PART II - Make a life decision for me

[wiggy001]

I'm in a similar position regarding current salary and salary and for me it would be the one day a week in London that would make me question the move. I work at home 3-4 days a week and to be honest I'd prefer to be in the office a bit more. It's only that it's a 90-120 minute commute at my own cost, and that I don't have to, that I don't. But the London bit is a whole different ball game. That's presumably either a 4am-9pm day (which will knacker you for the rest of the week) or a night or two in a hotel (which is fun initially, but the novelty soon wears off).

If it was once a fortnight I'd probably go for it.

Think very hard about the impact of this before deciding.

[vtecyo]

What a lovely situation to be in!

Sam99 said:

Hello,

You are 29 years old. A Spring Chicken.
You studied hard , worked hard and qualified as a Lawyer. Congratulations. You are not Council !!

Please don't throw all that potential away by Coasting
Man up , step up and take the job.
Not for the money maybe , which is always nice , but for your own self worth.

I'm 61 and working as an Engineer in Iraq.
Not coasting.

I can put this reply on an A4 Headed letter to you if you want but it will be 500.00 pounds plus vat. :-) Sorry , no Pound sign on my laptop


Sam

I would agree with this if your son was at school.

If you're getting job offers like that now, you will be in a couple of years when your son (and wife!) are at school. I would spend the time with them whilst you can. By that time your current place may have new opportunities anyway. If you don't need the money then I wouldn't. I recently moved for a 33% pay rise, granted significantly less than your salary but same RE commuting, benefits, bonus etc. In many ways I regret it, and I'm neither marries nor have kids!

[MikeGoodwin]

My Mrs is a lawyer in London for a relatively large firm , I wont say which. Currently she has a relatively good working life where she is often home by 7-8 where as some of her mates at other firms work until 5am in the morning then are back in at work for 9. Compared to the last firm she is very happy. She is 25 and a year qualified.

If you are happy with the current job and working hours why leave? Lets face it, from what my Mrs has said when you get to the 100k mark your life could really turn into nothing but work unless you're a manager at that level and lucky enough to work for a decent firm.

I personally HATE kids and am dreading the day I am forced to have them but I hear when you have them they are your #1 priority so I cant understand why someone would want to spend their life working but I need to remember people are different as she knows people who have 2-3 kids yet they do nothing but work. Literally spends the week at work all hours. Life seems pretty short given how fast the last 10 years have gone by (about the same age as you now) so why on earth would i want to spend it working. fk that.

[Adenauer]

ReallyReallyGood said:

Sam99 said:

Hello,

You are 29 years old. A Spring Chicken.
You studied hard , worked hard and qualified as a Lawyer. Congratulations. You are not Council !!

Please don't throw all that potential away by Coasting
Man up , step up and take the job.
Not for the money maybe , which is always nice , but for your own self worth.

I'm 61 and working as an Engineer in Iraq.
Not coasting.

I can put this reply on an A4 Headed letter to you if you want but it will be 500.00 pounds plus vat. :-) Sorry , no Pound sign on my laptop


Sam

I agree with this. I have seen enough friends in 'comfortable' jobs whose talent is wasted, and could have done so much more if they'd been just a little braver.

The OP could always go for the middle ground and see if he can't arrange some sort of bonus scheme in his current job rather than leaving it for a new job, especially if there is already one kid to support and potentially another in a years time.

I always think that 'coasting' is relative. Sure, if you aren't in a very well paid job but are happy enough and just get by, I'd call that coasting. If you are earning 70K plus and are happy to stay put, I don't see anything wrong with that. Everybody on here earns far more than that of course, but in the real world, 70K isn't bad money.

Job stability has to count for something if you have a young family.

[eyebeebe]

I think it's a poor form to get a raise and then quit within a few months of doing so, but that's a personal thing.

Putting aside the family stuff and work-life balance for the moment, as you do seem to be all about the money

I'm going to suggest that they will be aiming to have you at the lower to middle end of that scale, so let's say an extra £1,000 a month in the short term. You are still near the start of your career, so IMO you need to work out what the trajectory of your earnings will be if you stay with the current firm vs. If you move. You also need to consider the optionality that working for the London firm will give you - as you get further into your career it will be harder and harder to move to a big (paying) player if you have spent more of your career at a smaller firm. The bonus is a big consideration too. It could make a massive difference to your calculations. 10% might not make too much of a difference, but 50% could etc. As an accountant I moved from a regional city to London at 26 (and then to Zurich) and 9 years on I would estimate that I earn a minimum of double what I would be earning if I had stayed in the regional city and that gap will continue to increase. I didn't have kids to worry about though.

Once you have the money side estimated, you need to go back to the change in work life balance, which others have posted about re travel time, overtime, flexibility, working from home and decide if it's worth it.

Whatever you do, I would advise against going back to your manager and using this as leverage to get another pay rise. By all means have a discussion on prospects, long term growth etc, but using this for a raise is going to kill your goodwill with him and if he does agree, in the back of his mind he's going to be expecting you to do the same in a year's time.

[Adenauer]

eyebeebe said:

Whatever you do, I would advise against going back to your manager and using this as leverage to get another pay rise. By all means have a discussion on prospects, long term growth etc, but using this for a raise is going to kill your goodwill with him and if he does agree, in the back of his mind he's going to be expecting you to do the same in a year's time.

I agree with this ^^ hence I said to try and sort a bonus scheme out, that's not asking outright for a raise.

[sjg]

Putting the money, career, etc stuff to one side - with young kids it's much easier all round if you can coast for bit, especially in the first few months with a new baby. With the best will in the world, if you're woken up regularly in the night for weeks/months on end you won't be working as well as someone who gets a solid 8 hours. In a well established job, you can lean a little on the understanding of bosses and colleagues as they know how you worked before and trust you'll be back up to speed when you can. I wouldn't want to be starting a new job, figuring out new processes/bosses/colleagues/etc all with higher expectations that come with a new hire on a bigger salary.

Yes, a second baby is a little easier as you both know what you're doing. But then you're doing all that with a toddler to look after too, one that's been used to full and undivided attention and will be adjusting to sharing that.

29 is at the younger end these days for professional people having kids. By 35 you'll have both kids in school and be able to plough into bigger challenges (without causing big problems at home), just as many of your peers are having their first babies.

[anonymous-user]

If you have the support of your wife and you have long term aspirations I think you need to be smashing your career at your age.

Late 20s to mid 30s is prime career development time.

[anonymous-user]

advicedout said:

All other things beign equal, what would you do?

I see two main factors here:

- giving up a chunk of working from home with the added travel time that brings weighed against the extra money, and
- the job you'll be in in five years.

The first one is something only you can really answer, because other people will give you their views on how they value their time against money. The question for you though is how you balance those two things.

The second point is quite important IMO (but again, perhaps not yours). In five years your kids will be 7 and 4 maybe. You may be looking at moving to a bigger house and/or taking on (more) school fees. You'll be 34 which I would think is a time at which if you're not on an upward career trajectory, you'll be perceived to be falling back (there's not much middle ground). So which of your current job or the one on offer will provide a better stepping stone to a good career move in five years' time?

[advicedout]

TVR Sagaris said:

Interesting topic. Is the new job attractive in other ways? (Prestigious firm, engaging work?)

I think the new job will mean direct board contact, but similar level of prestige, and engaging work I would imagine.

davepoth said:

What's the potential for progression at your current place? Based on how cushy everything else is, if you are going to see £10k of pay increase in the next couple of years I don't think I could be bothered to move.

There is a pretty flat structure under the General Counsel. There are talks of additional hires and growing the team, but i'm sceptical as to how that would lead to progression for me.

Stylus said:

I'd be asking yourself if you're happy with what you're doing. If you've had two job offers in 9 months, I'd assume you're not and are actively looking?

JPJPJP said:

That you are still looking at other jobs despite receiving a pay rise and being in a role that, by your own description, has a bright future, indicates an underlying issue with the current role / firm imo

You should take the new job.

It might not be perfect. It might not even be better than the current job, but until you move, you will always be looking and wondering

Dan_1981 said:

Are you being headhunted for these roles or are you applying?

If you are applying then I think the answer is pretty obvious.

(I don't know if you apply for jobs as a £100k a year lawyer or if they come and find you?)

Both opportunities came from recruiters contacting me on linkedin.

BerksBoy said:

the family point is the one to focus on for me....

a. the one hour commute.. for that wage, I expect 5.30 on the dot leaving is not the norm. Get stuck in traffic and it is no more story-time for the kid each night

b. the london day. will you travel down the night before or at 4am in the morning ? again impact to family.

i recently changed jobs and the most important opinion for me was that of my wife. As it is she who now has to deal with the kids each morning I am on the 7.05am train to london or up at 4.15am to get to heathrow.

yes go for the new job, stretch yourself, always be moving forward..... but the gap this leaves (with the children) can only be filled by your wife.

a. I presume it would be similar to the 1-2 days in the office I do currently, I make it in time for book and bath times.

b. I'd travel on the day, meaning 30 minutes to station, and catching the 6.50 train to Euston.

I catch a flight around once a month so have a 5.00am start on that day, so know how knackering it can be. My wife is really supportive, and wouldn't want me to not take a career step if it was important to me.

oldcynic said:

Sounds like loads more time out of the house for an extra 20% or so in your pocket. Are you mortgaged up to the eyeballs or living comfortably on your current salary? Will you spend a chunk of the extra cash running a car & buying lunches etc as a result of working from the office instead of from home?

Personally if I didn't desperately need the money I'd stick with the current job and enjoy the time with my family, whereas 15 years ago I was single with no kids and would have chased the money. A job you enjoy which provides what you need is worth far more than a few extra quid at this time in your life.

Mortgage paid, but some small loans from family members that need to be paid off. None of them are in need of the money so have told me to keep it, and they'll give me a few months notice if they need it. But no individual loan more than 5k so easily repaid if given enough notice. The new job would mean having 2 cars as opposed to the one we currently have, but I wouldn't buy a second car which would bankrupt me. I don't think lunch costs would increase drastically!

Adenauer said:

The OP could always go for the middle ground and see if he can't arrange some sort of bonus scheme in his current job rather than leaving it for a new job, especially if there is already one kid to support and potentially another in a years time.

eyebeebe said:

I think it's a poor form to get a raise and then quit within a few months of doing so, but that's a personal thing.

Putting aside the family stuff and work-life balance for the moment, as you do seem to be all about the money

Whatever you do, I would advise against going back to your manager and using this as leverage to get another pay rise. By all means have a discussion on prospects, long term growth etc, but using this for a raise is going to kill your goodwill with him and if he does agree, in the back of his mind he's going to be expecting you to do the same in a year's time.

I'm certainly not going to go back for a another pay rise. I think I would cringe whilst doing so. It's just not an option. Not ALL about the money, but having never worked in bad work enviromnent maybe I am naive as to the possibility of working in a job you hate. And so the primary factor becomes upside in net salary.

desolate said:

If you have the support of your wife and you have long term aspirations I think you need to be smashing your career at your age.

Late 20s to mid 30s is prime career development time.

My wife is supportive. She doesn't have any aspiration to enter the workforce again until the little one is in nursery when he turns 3. But by then we might have another, and given how she felt after the first, she will probably want to be at home just like for the first. Then again she might become bored by this point and want to go back to the job she loved.

Greg66 said:

advicedout said:

All other things beign equal, what would you do?

- the job you'll be in in five years.

In five years your kids will be 7 and 4 maybe. You may be looking at moving to a bigger house and/or taking on (more) school fees. You'll be 34 which I would think is a time at which if you're not on an upward career trajectory, you'll be perceived to be falling back (there's not much middle ground). So which of your current job or the one on offer will provide a better stepping stone to a good career move in five years' time?

Really difficult to answer. There is a spossibility of stagnation here in my current role, with annual inflationary increases in salary, and no additional responsibility or improved prospects. But then again that could also be the case in the new job. I don't see how I could compare the two without knowing what the environment and structure is like in the new job.

[jonah35]

Pension?

Stay put if you're happy, between £100-120k you pay 62% tax anyway so any bonus would get eaten in tax

[SlimJim16v]

CrutyRammers said:

Interesting POV.
For me, self-worth comes from the things I do outside of work, rather than in it. A career is a means to an end; it's what it enables you to do that's important, rather than the career itself. If you spend all of your time working what's the point?

Amongst all the other helpful advice and not-so-humble opinions, this is the most important. There are things more important than money.

[Sam99]

Adenauer said:

ReallyReallyGood said:

Sam99 said:

Hello,

You are 29 years old. A Spring Chicken.
You studied hard , worked hard and qualified as a Lawyer. Congratulations. You are not Council !!

Please don't throw all that potential away by Coasting
Man up , step up and take the job.
Not for the money maybe , which is always nice , but for your own self worth.

I'm 61 and working as an Engineer in Iraq.
Not coasting.

I can put this reply on an A4 Headed letter to you if you want but it will be 500.00 pounds plus vat. :-) Sorry , no Pound sign on my laptop


Sam

I agree with this. I have seen enough friends in 'comfortable' jobs whose talent is wasted, and could have done so much more if they'd been just a little braver.

The OP could always go for the middle ground and see if he can't arrange some sort of bonus scheme in his current job rather than leaving it for a new job, especially if there is already one kid to support and potentially another in a years time.

I always think that 'coasting' is relative. Sure, if you aren't in a very well paid job but are happy enough and just get by, I'd call that coasting. If you are earning 70K plus and are happy to stay put, I don't see anything wrong with that. Everybody on here earns far more than that of course, but in the real world, 70K isn't bad money.

Job stability has to count for something if you have a young family.

I agree with you both . We all have different agendas and outside interests.
Self-worth. Maybe a sense of achievement would have been a better phrase to use. Would it not be nice to say , when I was 29 I was a Lawyer with 123 & Sons , I moved companies and 4 or 5 years later I’m a partner with XYZ & Sons ???
A sense of achievement ???
I believe if you have the opportunity to earn extra cash whilst you have the stamina and drive to put yourself out a bit, you have the ability to clear all important outstanding debts - Mortgage, c/cards, Uni Loans etc. etc. a few or even quite a few years early.
The other train of thought might be to enjoy your life and family whilst you can and are physically young enough to do so.
Don’t get me wrong , I’m not a workaholic – In fact I will quit Iraq next year and spend more time at home.
This is just my opinion – It’s a personal thing and we are all different. Thank goodness

Sam

[Landlord]

You won't ever get your children's childhood time back, no matter how much money you have.

It depends on whether this applies to you and how much importance you place on it.

Me - in hindsight - would have given up almost anything to have been there with my boys. They're only 8 and 9 now so still a little time before they want to spend time with mates and not parents, but my financial decisions made years ago mean I'm stuck working long hours for the time being.

[AyBee]

Go for it IMO. It appears to me that you're not happy in your existing role, otherwise you wouldn't be looking. The only other point I'll add, is that you probably need to think about where you go after this - does your job become more London-centric and you need to be here the whole time, will you be able to find a job near home again easily when you decide that's what you want to do, what do you want to be doing in 5-10 years from now and can you get there from your current role?

[dtmpower]

MikeGoodwin said:

other firms work until 5am in the morning then are back in at work for 9.

Does this happen regularly , and if so , how do you function working a 20 hour day ?

[advicedout]

dtmpower said:

MikeGoodwin said:

other firms work until 5am in the morning then are back in at work for 9.

Does this happen regularly , and if so , how do you function working a 20 hour day ?

I think it's a semi regular occurrence at U.S. firms in London. Magic circle can mean 9/10pm finishes regularly but all nighters aren't regular.

[Neil H]

I say go for it, that bump in salary is hard to say no to. Worst case scenario is you don’t like it and get a job somewhere else.

[advicedout]

Neil H said:

I say go for it, that bump in salary is hard to say no to. Worst case scenario is you don’t like it and get a job somewhere else.

That's another issue. It probably wouldn't be easy to find another job within an hours commute from home at the same salary level. So if I don't like the job, i'll have to stick it out at least for a couple of years until something suitable comes up. Also, wouldn't look great on the CV if I left somewhere so soon after joining.

AyBee said:

Go for it IMO. It appears to me that you're not happy in your existing role, otherwise you wouldn't be looking. The only other point I'll add, is that you probably need to think about where you go after this - does your job become more London-centric and you need to be here the whole time, will you be able to find a job near home again easily when you decide that's what you want to do, what do you want to be doing in 5-10 years from now and can you get there from your current role?

Not actively looking, these roles have come to me. It would be difficult to find another job near home again, and I have no interest in moving to London, so that would be out of the quetsion.

Edited by advicedout on Wednesday 24th August 14:52

[Pulse]

lauda said:

Interesting topic. I'm in a similar position to the OP (a bit older but a near-three year old and another on the way) and am just about to hit 13 years at the firm I work for. I earn a better salary than I'd ever really hoped to and whilst I can't pretend that I'd turn down more money if it was going begging, I'm not prepared to sacrifice my family time to achieve it.

When I think about it, there's no material possession that I'd trade for time with my daughter and we don't go without anything as it is so I figure there's no point changing jobs or pushing for promotion just for the financial reward.

Which then gets you back to the question about how much you enjoy your work. It sounds like the OP is in a good situation from this perspective (challenging work, good relationships with colleagues, trust/flexibility). Those things can be all-too rare in a lot of jobs.

It's a tough call but I think of it like this. You can never buy back time with your kids and in twenty years they won't remember that you went on a slightly more expensive holiday when you got your bonus. They'll just remember that dad never used to be home to read them a story before they went to bed.

Absolute sense being written here...

To put it in context initially, I'm nowhere near those wages, and I'm 31, but I still don't have the need for more money. Differing from the OP, I'm single and have no kids, but I still have to run my house, my car, and all those sorts of things.

Even being single, I wouldn't sacrifice my time for a little extra money. If I could net another £1000 a month, I'd perhaps think about it. I have too much I want to do outside of work, and only some of that requires a lot of money.

As lauda has said, it sounds like you enjoy your job, which is similar to me. Would I look to leave if I could earn more AND I didn't like my job? Most likely, yes.

I've spoken to a friend of mine twice about this sort of situation. An extra £10-15k in pay, but having to travel to work, whereas he has an easy enough job at the moment and walks to work.

For those saying about wasted talent; whilst I agree it's a shame to waste talent, that doesn't mean you shouldn't. Some things in life are more important.