"Christian Country"
Discussion
Most of those types spouting all the 'We am a Christian countraay deport um an make britian bak british!' are never actually Christian themselves and probably never set foot in a Church besides a wedding. See it all the time on local news Facebook pages when an article involves anyone with a brown skin tone, quite disgusting and disheartening to be honest.
I think there is still a considerable portion of the population that would tick the 'White Christian' box on a census despite not practicing religion at all though. The older of the population id imagine.
Personally I dont know anyone who is religious at all, there was a few kids I went to primary school with who were (their parents were vicars) but they arent religious these days. My Asian mates will do Gurdwara or Mosque from time to time for celebrations and family stuff but none of them are actually religious either, just take part in the cultural side.
I think there is still a considerable portion of the population that would tick the 'White Christian' box on a census despite not practicing religion at all though. The older of the population id imagine.
Personally I dont know anyone who is religious at all, there was a few kids I went to primary school with who were (their parents were vicars) but they arent religious these days. My Asian mates will do Gurdwara or Mosque from time to time for celebrations and family stuff but none of them are actually religious either, just take part in the cultural side.
GetCarter said:
RizzoTheRat said:
I'm an athiest but I celebrate christmas, scoff plenty of chocolate at easter, and don't covet my neighbours ass.
Both Pagan festivals of course. Stolen by Christians (like most of the free world over the centuries). Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 29th September 17:21
loafer123 said:
To me, Christian in this context isn't about religion anymore, it is about culture.
Being British, or any of the subsets such as Scottish or English, brings with it a whole lot of societal baggage, but it is our societal baggage and I hope that people who join us come to love it and embrace it too, as it will make for a more united country which embraces its differences and celebrates its similarities.
All cultures have baggage...some of it good, some of it bad. I'm happy to embrace the "good" baggage from any culture but not necessarily the bad.Being British, or any of the subsets such as Scottish or English, brings with it a whole lot of societal baggage, but it is our societal baggage and I hope that people who join us come to love it and embrace it too, as it will make for a more united country which embraces its differences and celebrates its similarities.
GetCarter said:
2Btoo said:
Head of state who is a practising Christian
Head of state is also head of the Anglican church
Parliament prays to the Christian God before every session, as does the House of Lords
Law is based upon 10 commandments
Legal system is based upon OT principles (innocent until proven guilty, judged by a jury of 12 peers etc)
Probably quite a few others.
Yea, but will do anything to keep their position and power.Head of state is also head of the Anglican church
Parliament prays to the Christian God before every session, as does the House of Lords
Law is based upon 10 commandments
Legal system is based upon OT principles (innocent until proven guilty, judged by a jury of 12 peers etc)
Probably quite a few others.
Someone else mentioned 1 million practising. I'm surprised it's that high tbh. I'd make a bet that without much of the sub-Saharan and East European immigration the number would be a lot lower than that.
One final thing though (and this is my pedant self speaking), the Queen is not the head of the church. She is Supreme Governor. Immaterial to most folk here I guess but I may as well point it out.
t:GetCarter said:
Both Pagan festivals of course. Stolen by Christians (like most of the free world over the centuries).
Earth Worship originally, surely! Then Egyptian Gods, Greek Gods, Roman Gods, Where would Buddhism come in? Christianity to give the masses something to focus on apart from their sh*tty lives. Muslim and Buddhist religions a more peaceful path, at the time. Catholic and C of E more radical and aggressive and the off shoots who knows?As far as I'm concerned, prove to me that there is an omnipotent sky fairy and I'll kick Him in the Nuts, or Her in the Cl*nge for what They are allowing to go on in the world!! Them being Omnipotent and all that! Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 29th September 17:21
As you can probably tell, I'm not a Beleber! (probably even spelt that wrong)
The Ors said:
Goaty Bill 2 said:
...we celebrate (or at least have some bank holidays based upon) important Christian events.
...which are based upon Pagan events.Let's keep repeating it - Christmas is NOT Christian; they just renamed it!
Are you suggesting that because your preferred sky fairy / tree fairy chose that date or season first that it has exclusive rights?
That is after all a readily identifiable pagan claim. No self-respecting atheist would accept that as an argument, I would hope.
It is accepted by all educated Christians that the early version of the 'festival' was later influenced by aspects of the Roman feasts of the Saturnalia and the birthday of Mithra, along with widely common winter solstice celebrations.
No one would reasonably dispute that many local traditions have been incorporated into the seasonal observance; such as the Yule log and the Christmas tree, Santa Clause being one of the latest arrivals.
Given that a date of 25 December was chosen at some point in the 4th century to mark a celebration of the birth of Christ (not as the actual date, which is unknown), though the early Eastern church celebrated on the Epiphany 6/7 January, as do some Eastern European churches today.
Christmas is observed in many different ways around the world, often without many of the things westerners consider a normal part of Christmas, and not celebrated at all by some branches of the Christian church.
You can repeat; "Christmas is NOT Christian" as often as you like, for as long as you like, but it won't make it true.
The clue is in the name.
Goaty Bill 2 said:
The Ors said:
Goaty Bill 2 said:
...we celebrate (or at least have some bank holidays based upon) important Christian events.
...which are based upon Pagan events.Let's keep repeating it - Christmas is NOT Christian; they just renamed it!
Are you suggesting that because your preferred sky fairy / tree fairy chose that date or season first that it has exclusive rights?
That is after all a readily identifiable pagan claim. No self-respecting atheist would accept that as an argument, I would hope.
It is accepted by all educated Christians that the early version of the 'festival' was later influenced by aspects of the Roman feasts of the Saturnalia and the birthday of Mithra, along with widely common winter solstice celebrations.
No one would reasonably dispute that many local traditions have been incorporated into the seasonal observance; such as the Yule log and the Christmas tree, Santa Clause being one of the latest arrivals.
Given that a date of 25 December was chosen at some point in the 4th century to mark a celebration of the birth of Christ (not as the actual date, which is unknown), though the early Eastern church celebrated on the Epiphany 6/7 January, as do some Eastern European churches today.
Christmas is observed in many different ways around the world, often without many of the things westerners consider a normal part of Christmas, and not celebrated at all by some branches of the Christian church.
You can repeat; "Christmas is NOT Christian" as often as you like, for as long as you like, but it won't make it true.
The clue is in the name.
CrutyRammers said:
I think his argument is more that "having a celebration at around the winter solstice cannot be used to argue that the country is Christian, since it has done that for some thousands of years beforehand"
Perhaps. However the recognised UK holiday in question is Christmas, and I am responding to the specific statement; "Let's keep repeating it - Christmas is NOT Christian; they just renamed it!".Christmas was not purloined from anyone, and furthermore we don't have a recognised holiday for winter solstice nor Saturnalia or any other religion's festivals.
Campaign for the final and complete separation of church and state; I support you.
Campaign for zero religious teachings in schools; I support you.
Campaign for the closing of all church/religion sponsored schools; I support you.
Teach exclusively evolution in schools; I support you.
(it is in any case a fallacy that all Christians are raised as creationists)
Be an atheist, (or a pagan for that matter); I support your right to be one
(again don't teach it schools)
Argue for reasons that Britain shouldn't be described as a "Christian country"; I support your right to do so, I will even listen with interest
Hate religion; I support your right to do so.
A fallacious and illogical argument is however a fallacious and illogical argument.
ETA
Please accept that any responses / comments I make are not personal attacks.
I far prefer a dialectic 'fight' to a personal one. It's far more productive
Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Friday 30th September 10:35
I'm getting to the point that I see the decline of mainstream UK religion as a negative thing, quite frankly.
Forget the mumbo-jumbo, the belief in every word and story of a long outdated and re-written book and all of that shyte.
I lament the passing community spirit, people displaying some morality, watching out for neighbours, and I abhor the rise in new gods of money, fame and social media.
I also think that people NEED a belief and that the decline in religion means people start to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, man didn't land on the moon and all sorts of other crap.
Forget the mumbo-jumbo, the belief in every word and story of a long outdated and re-written book and all of that shyte.
I lament the passing community spirit, people displaying some morality, watching out for neighbours, and I abhor the rise in new gods of money, fame and social media.
I also think that people NEED a belief and that the decline in religion means people start to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, man didn't land on the moon and all sorts of other crap.
kowalski655 said:
Well its not like Christianity doesn't have form for ripping other religions off
Again, though humorous, replete with fallacy.Really, studied atheists can do so much better than that.
It's a much easier argument to make after all isn't it?
I often wonder why do so many proclaimed atheists, such as the cartoonist above, find it so difficult to form a logical, and accurate argument?
Goaty Bill 2 said:
Again, though humorous, replete with fallacy.
Really, studied atheists can do so much better than that.
It's a much easier argument to make after all isn't it?
I often wonder why do so many proclaimed atheists, such as the cartoonist above, find it so difficult to form a logical, and accurate argument?
What is an accurate argument concerning religion. Religion is fundamentally exist/does not exist/don't know/don't care. No facts, or logic.Really, studied atheists can do so much better than that.
It's a much easier argument to make after all isn't it?
I often wonder why do so many proclaimed atheists, such as the cartoonist above, find it so difficult to form a logical, and accurate argument?
eldar said:
Goaty Bill 2 said:
Again, though humorous, replete with fallacy.
Really, studied atheists can do so much better than that.
It's a much easier argument to make after all isn't it?
I often wonder why do so many proclaimed atheists, such as the cartoonist above, find it so difficult to form a logical, and accurate argument?
What is an accurate argument concerning religion. Religion is fundamentally exist/does not exist/don't know/don't care. No facts, or logic.Really, studied atheists can do so much better than that.
It's a much easier argument to make after all isn't it?
I often wonder why do so many proclaimed atheists, such as the cartoonist above, find it so difficult to form a logical, and accurate argument?
Therefore it's something of an argument against belief, though many Christians could and would see the funny side I am sure.
One of the strongest arguments for atheism or anti-theism if you prefer, (different, but we can treat them as the same for this point), would be provable facts and honest statements.
After all, religious leaders (speaking generally) have something of a history in being less than honest or honourable do they not?
The cartoon lacks honesty and IMO relies upon people's ignorance to impress it's message; at least as far as seeming to claim that Christianity is the religion performing 'theft' of ideas. It seems to me, to be a pretty common practice across all religions.
A single example, of which I have already stated the inaccuracy of; in the third frame, the birthdays of Jesus and Zoroastrian Mithra.
I have never heard of anyone claiming an actual known date for the birth of Jesus.
A date was chosen, and many may wish to argue that it was intentionally to align with some other important time/event, but I would ask for proof of that. Minutes of the meeting would be acceptable
For the birth date of Mithra, I can offer no insight.
It does however render the jokey statement invalid as any form of argument, as it relies upon a known falsehood.
I agree; religion is about faith and belief.
Those that attempt to defend it logically or through physical proofs are on a slippery slope.
In the end, the atheist will disbelieve what they choose to disbelieve, and conversely....
jshell said:
I'm getting to the point that I see the decline of mainstream UK religion as a negative thing, quite frankly.
Forget the mumbo-jumbo, the belief in every word and story of a long outdated and re-written book and all of that shyte.
I lament the passing community spirit, people displaying some morality, watching out for neighbours, and I abhor the rise in new gods of money, fame and social media.
I also think that people NEED a belief and that the decline in religion means people start to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, man didn't land on the moon and all sorts of other crap.
And the comfort it gives people. Just before she died earlier this year she talked about being reunited with my granddad in heaven. Maybe they are right now, maybe they aren't, but that belief was important to her.Forget the mumbo-jumbo, the belief in every word and story of a long outdated and re-written book and all of that shyte.
I lament the passing community spirit, people displaying some morality, watching out for neighbours, and I abhor the rise in new gods of money, fame and social media.
I also think that people NEED a belief and that the decline in religion means people start to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, man didn't land on the moon and all sorts of other crap.
Attended an open evening at my sons non denominational school in Scotland, he's in a P2/3 class.
They had an RME (Religious and Moral Education) board up and in the center was the question 'What do we know about God?'. It was the first term that the topic had been introduced so I was surprised at
a) The phrasing of the question - it assumes that there is a God? Not 'What do we think about the idea of Gods?'
b) The children had drawn pictures and written something, 70% of them were saying something like 'God created the world' and a few mentioned Jesus. It was odd as none of my friends are religious at all, and its not something that I've discussed with my 6 year old as I don't believe myself.
They had an RME (Religious and Moral Education) board up and in the center was the question 'What do we know about God?'. It was the first term that the topic had been introduced so I was surprised at
a) The phrasing of the question - it assumes that there is a God? Not 'What do we think about the idea of Gods?'
b) The children had drawn pictures and written something, 70% of them were saying something like 'God created the world' and a few mentioned Jesus. It was odd as none of my friends are religious at all, and its not something that I've discussed with my 6 year old as I don't believe myself.
Mr Snrub said:
jshell said:
I'm getting to the point that I see the decline of mainstream UK religion as a negative thing, quite frankly.
Forget the mumbo-jumbo, the belief in every word and story of a long outdated and re-written book and all of that shyte.
I lament the passing community spirit, people displaying some morality, watching out for neighbours, and I abhor the rise in new gods of money, fame and social media.
I also think that people NEED a belief and that the decline in religion means people start to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, man didn't land on the moon and all sorts of other crap.
And the comfort it gives people. Just before she died earlier this year she talked about being reunited with my granddad in heaven. Maybe they are right now, maybe they aren't, but that belief was important to her.Forget the mumbo-jumbo, the belief in every word and story of a long outdated and re-written book and all of that shyte.
I lament the passing community spirit, people displaying some morality, watching out for neighbours, and I abhor the rise in new gods of money, fame and social media.
I also think that people NEED a belief and that the decline in religion means people start to believe that 9/11 was an inside job, man didn't land on the moon and all sorts of other crap.
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