"Christian Country"
Discussion
Goaty Bill 2 said:
CrutyRammers said:
I think his argument is more that "having a celebration at around the winter solstice cannot be used to argue that the country is Christian, since it has done that for some thousands of years beforehand"
Perhaps. However the recognised UK holiday in question is Christmas, and I am responding to the specific statement; "Let's keep repeating it - Christmas is NOT Christian; they just renamed it!".Christmas was not purloined from anyone, and furthermore we don't have a recognised holiday for winter solstice nor Saturnalia or any other religion's festivals.
There is ample supporting evidence of Christianity displacing previous beliefs. Be it building churches on existing sacred ground, destroying previous monuments, and eventually outlawing those beliefs and persecuting those who followed them. Whether the particular festival of Christmas was part of that is of course arguable, but it would be one of the few things they didn't purloin if it wasn't.
PAULJ5555 said:
We have Bank Holidays for Christmas and Easter so that makes the UK a christian country. We don't have holidays for other religions.
Again, there have been celebrations at those times since there have been people here, thousands of years before the christians came. We also have bank holidays for mayday and spring, what do they make us?We are nominally a christian country because we have an established church. Not because of the times of holidays which are based around the solar cycle.
CrutyRammers said:
PAULJ5555 said:
We have Bank Holidays for Christmas and Easter so that makes the UK a christian country. We don't have holidays for other religions.
Again, there have been celebrations at those times since there have been people here, thousands of years before the christians came. We also have bank holidays for mayday and spring, what do they make us?We are nominally a christian country because we have an established church. Not because of the times of holidays which are based around the solar cycle.
PAULJ5555 said:
CrutyRammers said:
PAULJ5555 said:
We have Bank Holidays for Christmas and Easter so that makes the UK a christian country. We don't have holidays for other religions.
Again, there have been celebrations at those times since there have been people here, thousands of years before the christians came. We also have bank holidays for mayday and spring, what do they make us?We are nominally a christian country because we have an established church. Not because of the times of holidays which are based around the solar cycle.
CrutyRammers said:
Goaty Bill 2 said:
CrutyRammers said:
I think his argument is more that "having a celebration at around the winter solstice cannot be used to argue that the country is Christian, since it has done that for some thousands of years beforehand"
Perhaps. However the recognised UK holiday in question is Christmas, and I am responding to the specific statement; "Let's keep repeating it - Christmas is NOT Christian; they just renamed it!".Christmas was not purloined from anyone, and furthermore we don't have a recognised holiday for winter solstice nor Saturnalia or any other religion's festivals.
There is ample supporting evidence of Christianity displacing previous beliefs. Be it building churches on existing sacred ground, destroying previous monuments, and eventually outlawing those beliefs and persecuting those who followed them. Whether the particular festival of Christmas was part of that is of course arguable, but it would be one of the few things they didn't purloin if it wasn't.
It is argued by many scholars that it was intended to replace Saturnalia, which does not initially seem an entirely unreasonable position as Saturnalia ended on the 23rd of December however, despite some/many borrowed customs, the two were originally distinct, and quite different, though if you read the wiki account, it seems that modern secular Christmas celebrations probably have more similarity in respect of the merry making and drunkenness.
Emperor Constantine declared the first Christmas on the 25th of December, (one of several dates being discussed by the theologians of the day), but did not outlaw paganism until some years later. The Roman church later adopted this date, while the eastern church was already using the Epiphany (Jan 6/7) as a date for celebration of Christ’s birth.
The idea that Christianity simply "took over" Saturnalia, is heavily disputed by some, and no proof so far provided Christmas (also see the Christmas:Talk)
But if anyone can show otherwise
So in response, I would say that in the absence of any reasonable argument that Christmas was just a “renamed” festival, I would submit that my statement is not an assertion without proof, though footnotes may have been required for some.
My reading of history, which is by no means extensive or even particularly recent, but includes several histories of Rome, Byzantine and Carthage, simply does not lead me to believe that early Christian theologians cared the slightest for what pagans and non-believers thought. They were too busy infighting on points of scripture.
As for "Christianity displacing previous beliefs. Be it building churches on existing sacred ground, destroying previous monuments..."
Those old time Christians eh? God love them, because very few others will
Indeed, the buggers stole everything that wasn't nailed down, and most of the stuff that was nailed down along with it.
Always be wary of anyone claiming to know what God wants, or what God is thinking.
GetCarter said:
...also, i think most of us have grown up enough not to believe fairy stories.
Hence - OTHER 'Jedi' was ticked a lot in the last census
To be fair it's as feasible as the "big bang theory" when you really think about it.Hence - OTHER 'Jedi' was ticked a lot in the last census
Just as no one has proved that God exists, no one has proven that he doesn't.
It's a tricky one to ponder and I'm an atheist.
As for the OP, we do live in a Christian country as explained just a few posts in.
Goaty Bill 2 said:
Christmas was, as far as anyone can show, always a celebration of the birth of Jesus. I fail to see how that could be considered stolen.
Im sure the fact that it happens to be at the same time as the winter solstice celebrations which have been going on since before stonehenge was built is purely coincidental. 
t:CrutyRammers said:
Goaty Bill 2 said:
Christmas was, as far as anyone can show, always a celebration of the birth of Jesus. I fail to see how that could be considered stolen.
Im sure the fact that it happens to be at the same time as the winter solstice celebrations which have been going on since before stonehenge was built is purely coincidental. Constantine was not the Bishop of Rome, but he was the emperor of Rome. People tended to do what Roman emperors said, at least I as understand my history.
Constantine had stopped the persecution of Christians (the Circus and the lions remember?), convened the council of Nicea and would shortly ban paganism. One might suppose they (Bishop of Rome and others), thought it best to go with the flow, as it were. After all, he had chosen one of their 'dates for consideration' and they hadn't been 'on top' for many years at that point.
Probably still (wisely) feeling a bit nervous/uncertain about their position.
As I said previously; "several histories of Rome, Byzantine and Carthage, simply does not lead me to believe that early Christian theologians cared the slightest for what pagans and non-believers thought".
If there are less than a million Christians and many of them non practicing, we also have around three million muslims does that not make us a muslim country?
I personally think we need to be a secular country and we need to tax all religion the same as everyone else is taxed, it would at least help to balance the books!
I personally think we need to be a secular country and we need to tax all religion the same as everyone else is taxed, it would at least help to balance the books!
Dunc B said:
If there are less than a million Christians and many of them non practicing, we also have around three million muslims does that not make us a muslim country?
I personally think we need to be a secular country and we need to tax all religion the same as everyone else is taxed, it would at least help to balance the books!
This is the correct answer.I personally think we need to be a secular country and we need to tax all religion the same as everyone else is taxed, it would at least help to balance the books!
Goaty Bill 2 said:
If you'd read my post "Emperor Constantine declared the first Christmas on the 25th of December, (one of several dates being discussed by the theologians of the day)"
Constantine was not the Bishop of Rome, but he was the emperor of Rome. People tended to do what Roman emperors said, at least I as understand my history.
Constantine had stopped the persecution of Christians (the Circus and the lions remember?), convened the council of Nicea and would shortly ban paganism. One might suppose they (Bishop of Rome and others), thought it best to go with the flow, as it were. After all, he had chosen one of their 'dates for consideration' and they hadn't been 'on top' for many years at that point.
Probably still (wisely) feeling a bit nervous/uncertain about their position.
As I said previously; "several histories of Rome, Byzantine and Carthage, simply does not lead me to believe that early Christian theologians cared the slightest for what pagans and non-believers thought".
I read your post. I have simply come to a different conclusion than you. History's like that.Constantine was not the Bishop of Rome, but he was the emperor of Rome. People tended to do what Roman emperors said, at least I as understand my history.
Constantine had stopped the persecution of Christians (the Circus and the lions remember?), convened the council of Nicea and would shortly ban paganism. One might suppose they (Bishop of Rome and others), thought it best to go with the flow, as it were. After all, he had chosen one of their 'dates for consideration' and they hadn't been 'on top' for many years at that point.
Probably still (wisely) feeling a bit nervous/uncertain about their position.
As I said previously; "several histories of Rome, Byzantine and Carthage, simply does not lead me to believe that early Christian theologians cared the slightest for what pagans and non-believers thought".
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Dunc B said:
If there are less than a million Christians and many of them non practicing, we also have around three million muslims does that not make us a muslim country?
I personally think we need to be a secular country and we need to tax all religion the same as everyone else is taxed, it would at least help to balance the books!
This is the correct answer.I personally think we need to be a secular country and we need to tax all religion the same as everyone else is taxed, it would at least help to balance the books!
It's got to happen at some point. William on the other hand, seems more "establishment". The crazy young people of today......
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