"Christian Country"

[Goaty Bill 2]

The Ors said:

But I believe they stole Christmas. Surely that's enough!

Indeed sir, it may well be for you , but at no point have I invoked belief, faith, or scripture.

I have simply responded to a commonly accepted yet erroneous statement that much over simplifies the matter.
It is a claim most commonly made by pagans (not schooled atheists), and paganism is a sort of theism, relying entirely on belief rather than supportable facts.

Einion Yrth said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Always be wary of anyone claiming to know what God wants, or what God is thinking.

I find being wary of anyone claiming god serves at least as well.

Perhaps I should have worded it; "Always give an especially wide berth to...".
I would and do.

CrutyRammers said:

I read your post. I have simply come to a different conclusion than you. History's like that.

Apologies, with the benefit of hindsight, my response may have seemed a little abrupt.

You have come to a different conclusion, but what evidence do you provide for that?

I think I have proven my initial point or at the least provided considerable supporting evidence, and so far the apparent atheists those arguing have provided me with their 'beliefs'.


ETA
Minor rewording.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Saturday 1st October 11:32

[MarshPhantom]

PAULJ5555 said:

We have Bank Holidays for Christmas and Easter so that makes the UK a christian country. We don't have holidays for other religions.

It annoys me how much holiday I have take at Christmas.

2% go to church, enough said. I doubt many actually believe much of what is in the bible either. More of a social event.

[Goaty Bill 2]

MarshPhantom said:

PAULJ5555 said:

We have Bank Holidays for Christmas and Easter so that makes the UK a christian country. We don't have holidays for other religions.

It annoys me how much holiday I have take at Christmas.

2% go to church, enough said. I doubt many actually believe much of what is in the bible either. More of a social event.

I bet you didn't think like that back when you were in school
The month long hiatus on doing any real work, followed by a week of complete cessation of work, followed by a week of people 'recovering' or enduring one's colleagues incessant bragging about where they went skiing is enough to drive anyone to distraction.

Yes, I too get paid by the day.
(okay, I am making an assumption there, but not an unreasonable one I think)

DMN said:

PAULJ5555 said:

We have Bank Holidays for Christmas and Easter so that makes the UK a christian country. We don't have holidays for other religions.

Both based on the Pagan festivals that went before them.....

Easter is based upon which pagan festival in particular?
With respect, this is nothing more than repeating "something I was told", without any apparent knowledge of the researched and documented history.
There is far greater evidence, and weight given to the argument, that it was tied to the period of the Jewish Passover.

Easter, for all the modern, secular frivolity of the current holiday period is liturgically of considerably greater importance to those of the Christian faith than Christmas. Though I'll grant you, it's often hard to tell

The wikis Easter and Easter Controversy (for anyone interested) simply don't support this as a valid argument or serious suggestion.

I think it far more likely that Christian theologians of the 4th century would simply not have cared about the opinions and practices of the barely-out-of-the-stone-age savages of Britain at the time.

[xRIEx]

2Btoo said:

Head of state who is a practising Christian
Head of state is also head of the Anglican church
Parliament prays to the Christian God before every session, as does the House of Lords
Law is based upon 10 commandments
Legal system is based upon OT principles (innocent until proven guilty, judged by a jury of 12 peers etc)

Probably quite a few others.

This is pretty much what I was going to say (apart from the 10 Commandments bit; four of them are about not dissing God, he's a bit egotistical!).

I think there's also the crossover of 'Cultural Christianity' - interlinked with the above points, the country has been majority Christian for (at a guess) the last 1700 years. Cultures and religions are closely linked and develop in tandem.

Same as regarding Judaism for example, many may consider themselves culturally/racially Jewish, even if they're not practising Jews.

I think the FB comments are a reaction to the fear of a shift in culture, rather than a shift in religion.

[Goaty Bill 2]

xRIEx said:

This is pretty much what I was going to say (apart from the 10 Commandments bit; four of them are about not dissing God, he's a bit egotistical!).

I think there's also the crossover of 'Cultural Christianity' - interlinked with the above points, the country has been majority Christian for (at a guess) the last 1700 years. Cultures and religions are closely linked and develop in tandem.

Same as regarding Judaism for example, many may consider themselves culturally/racially Jewish, even if they're not practising Jews.

I think the FB comments are a reaction to the fear of a shift in culture, rather than a shift in religion.

Can't disagree with any of that myself.

On that last sentence, I think you are being too kind.
I suspect it was pretty much pure racism.

It may come as a surprise to the FB poster that there are approximately 100,000 'white' Muslims in Britain. I've worked with a few Anglo Saxon Muslims in the past. Not all were converts, some were second generation.

[Mr Snrub]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Can't disagree with any of that myself.

On that last sentence, I think you are being too kind.
I suspect it was pretty much pure racism.

It may come as a surprise to the FB poster that there are approximately 100,000 'white' Muslims in Britain. I've worked with a few Anglo Saxon Muslims in the past. Not all were converts, some were second generation.

If many different races are Muslim then it can't be racism

[Goaty Bill 2]

Mr Snrub said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Can't disagree with any of that myself.

On that last sentence, I think you are being too kind.
I suspect it was pretty much pure racism.

It may come as a surprise to the FB poster that there are approximately 100,000 'white' Muslims in Britain. I've worked with a few Anglo Saxon Muslims in the past. Not all were converts, some were second generation.

If many different races are Muslim then it can't be racism

Rationally no, it can't be.

But the quote was "If they support Islam they have no place in a Christian country !! DEPORT THE LOT OF THEM . back to wherever their ethnic origins"

That appears, to me at least, to make an assumption that they can be deported to wherever they ethnically originate from. That of course would be impossible in all aspects for Anglo Saxon converts.

[Mr Snrub]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Mr Snrub said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Can't disagree with any of that myself.

On that last sentence, I think you are being too kind.
I suspect it was pretty much pure racism.

It may come as a surprise to the FB poster that there are approximately 100,000 'white' Muslims in Britain. I've worked with a few Anglo Saxon Muslims in the past. Not all were converts, some were second generation.

If many different races are Muslim then it can't be racism

Rationally no, it can't be.

But the quote was "If they support Islam they have no place in a Christian country !! DEPORT THE LOT OF THEM . back to wherever their ethnic origins"

That appears, to me at least, to make an assumption that they can be deported to wherever they ethnically originate from. That of course would be impossible in all aspects for Anglo Saxon converts.

That's just general ignorance and a lack of intelligence. But we should automatically associate that with any concerns about Islam.

[Goaty Bill 2]

Mr Snrub said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Mr Snrub said:

If many different races are Muslim then it can't be racism

Rationally no, it can't be.

But the quote was "If they support Islam they have no place in a Christian country !! DEPORT THE LOT OF THEM . back to wherever their ethnic origins"

That appears, to me at least, to make an assumption that they can be deported to wherever they ethnically originate from. That of course would be impossible in all aspects for Anglo Saxon converts.

That's just general ignorance and a lack of intelligence. But we should automatically associate that with any concerns about Islam.

I'm not sure I am clear on the meaning of your last post?

Are you saying that we should; "Automatically associate general ignorance and a lack of intelligence with any concerns about Islam."?

That's how I think it reads to me.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Mr Snrub said:

If many different races are Muslim then it can't be racism

Legal racism is entirely different to genetic racism. Legally Jews, Muslims, etc are a race. Of course genetically you get blonde blue eyed Jews and Muslims and Negro Jews and Muslims, so they cannot be the same race even though they share a religion. You cannot look at someones DNA and tell their religion, but you can tell their race. You could guess at their religion from DNA and would probably be right much of the time.

[xRIEx]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Mr Snrub said:

If many different races are Muslim then it can't be racism

Legal racism is entirely different to genetic racism. Legally Jews, Muslims, etc are a race. Of course genetically you get blonde blue eyed Jews and Muslims and Negro Jews and Muslims, so they cannot be the same race even though they share a religion. You cannot look at someones DNA and tell their religion, but you can tell their race. You could guess at their religion from DNA and would probably be right much of the time.

I believe that does apply to Jews (possibly only in the US, as you say through a legal process although possibly disputed), but it doesn't apply to Muslims AFAIK. The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia, and we probably wouldn't categorise Indonesian people as the same race as what we in the UK would typically think of as "Muslim people" (Middle Eastern, Desi).

The difference is that the modern Jewish DNA line stems from a comparatively very small number of Jews, after the genocidal attempts of an infamous Austrian. A quick look on wiki suggests there are about 14-15m Jews in the world; the estimates for Muslims is 1.6bn (as at 2010).

I would agree that the motivation of "those sorts"* of FB posters is a form of bigotry which is as close to racism as makes no difference in practical terms.



 *

[Mr Snrub]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Mr Snrub said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Mr Snrub said:

If many different races are Muslim then it can't be racism

Rationally no, it can't be.

But the quote was "If they support Islam they have no place in a Christian country !! DEPORT THE LOT OF THEM . back to wherever their ethnic origins"

That appears, to me at least, to make an assumption that they can be deported to wherever they ethnically originate from. That of course would be impossible in all aspects for Anglo Saxon converts.

That's just general ignorance and a lack of intelligence. But we should automatically associate that with any concerns about Islam.

I'm not sure I am clear on the meaning of your last post?

Are you saying that we should; "Automatically associate general ignorance and a lack of intelligence with any concerns about Islam."?

That's how I think it reads to me.

Ooops, meant to type "shouldn't"

[DMN]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Easter is based upon which pagan festival in particular?
With respect, this is nothing more than repeating "something I was told", without any apparent knowledge of the researched and documented history.

If your going to attempt to put words into my mouth, its best to ensure those words are not complete clap-trap.

The origins of Easter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2...

There is also plenty of biblical evidence that the Jesus character was born in April:
https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/biblical-evidenc...
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/jesus-born-...
http://www.livescience.com/42976-when-was-jesus-bo...

And plenty of evidence that Christmas is pagan:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_T...


Plus lets not forget that the changing date clusterfk of easter only came about because a King wanted to dip his wick:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Whitby

Its almost like these cults just make it up as they go along.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

xRIEx said:

The difference is that the modern Jewish DNA line stems from a comparatively very small number of Jews, after the genocidal attempts of an infamous Austrian. A quick look on wiki suggests there are about 14-15m Jews in the world; the estimates for Muslims is 1.6bn (as at 2010).

 *

Everybody is linked by DNA, but that doesn't make them the same race genetically. There are Jews in East Africa, who are black, Jews in China who look Chinese, and Gabby Roslin, who is blonde. They cannot be the same race. Plus people have converted to Judaism, and their children and grandchildren are Jewish. Plus people have abandoned Judaism and become Buddhists or Muslims, which hasn't altered their DNA.

A belief system cannot be a race, genetically. But legally it is.

[J4CKO]

I am not anti monarchy but they are really, these days just symbolic and traditional, there for the tourists, we are for all intents and purposes entirely secular in terms of government, the church and royalty are largely irrelevant to most people, even if they like them, I don't mind them and think they are good for the country, but they aren't rulers.

[StevieBee]

J4CKO said:

I am not anti monarchy but they are really, these days just symbolic and traditional, there for the tourists, we are for all intents and purposes entirely secular in terms of government, the church and royalty are largely irrelevant to most people, even if they like them, I don't mind them and think they are good for the country, but they aren't rulers.

The Queen retains absolute power over the UK and indeed, the Commonwealth. She can, if she wished, overrule any act of parliament or remove any Prime Minister or MP or Lord. No-one knows how often she intervenes but it is rare. There are some who believe she intervened in the Poll Tax matter.

[xRIEx]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

xRIEx said:

The difference is that the modern Jewish DNA line stems from a comparatively very small number of Jews, after the genocidal attempts of an infamous Austrian. A quick look on wiki suggests there are about 14-15m Jews in the world; the estimates for Muslims is 1.6bn (as at 2010).

 *

Everybody is linked by DNA, but that doesn't make them the same race genetically. There are Jews in East Africa, who are black, Jews in China who look Chinese, and Gabby Roslin, who is blonde. They cannot be the same race. Plus people have converted to Judaism, and their children and grandchildren are Jewish. Plus people have abandoned Judaism and become Buddhists or Muslims, which hasn't altered their DNA.

A belief system cannot be a race, genetically. But legally it is.

In which jurisdiction?

[Countdown]

StevieBee said:

The Queen retains absolute power over the UK and indeed, the Commonwealth. She can, if she wished, overrule any act of parliament or remove any Prime Minister or MP or Lord. No-one knows how often she intervenes but it is rare. There are some who believe she intervened in the Poll Tax matter.

If no-one knows how often she intervenes how do we know it's rare? Personally I'd rather she stayed out of politics, we have elected representatives for that kind of thing.

[joe_90]

DMN said:

If your going to attempt to put words into my mouth, its best to ensure those words are not complete clap-trap.

The origins of Easter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2...

There is also plenty of biblical evidence that the Jesus character was born in April:
https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/biblical-evidenc...
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/jesus-born-...
http://www.livescience.com/42976-when-was-jesus-bo...

And plenty of evidence that Christmas is pagan:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_T...


Plus lets not forget that the changing date clusterfk of easter only came about because a King wanted to dip his wick:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Whitby

Its almost like these cults just make it up as they go along.

Correct, there were loads of these cults all over the place, its just this one got traction.. (Just like startup's today, so many fall, but some [non even the best] get exposure to millions)

[J4CKO]

StevieBee said:

J4CKO said:

I am not anti monarchy but they are really, these days just symbolic and traditional, there for the tourists, we are for all intents and purposes entirely secular in terms of government, the church and royalty are largely irrelevant to most people, even if they like them, I don't mind them and think they are good for the country, but they aren't rulers.

The Queen retains absolute power over the UK and indeed, the Commonwealth. She can, if she wished, overrule any act of parliament or remove any Prime Minister or MP or Lord. No-one knows how often she intervenes but it is rare. There are some who believe she intervened in the Poll Tax matter.

Hmm , would love to see it f she tried, an unelected 90 year old lady gets to call the shots, can't see it happening myself.