The reality of life for many MANY people.
Discussion
Orchid1 said:
The way I see it there isn't really a "middle" class anymore. You can do all the things you're supposed to do ie stick in at school, go to uni, never get into the slightest bit of trouble however when it comes to trying to get a job the wages have been pushed so low that you're either a have or have not.
and it isn't just warehouse staff either.
My wife works in an office that provides outsourced office based support for some public sector organisations. Salaries pushed as low as they can go, minimal benefits, 40 contracted hours, no incentive to invest in staff as there is always someone else willing to do the job at the low salaries on offer when one leaves. I earn far more than her and we do fine as couple, but that isn't the case for most.
Combine this with rapidly rising house prices, and rental prices forecast to rise by 5% a year, and you are really seeing the formation of a "serf" class, that is only going to grow as a proportion of the population generation by generation as historic home ownership percentages are removed from the figures.
SilverSixer said:
Jockman said:
SilverSixer said:
I know these people. These were my parents, my uncles and aunts when I was growing up. My parents were desperate to make sure that their children didn't turn out the same. My uncles and aunts weren't and now my cousins tread the same path. My sister and I were the first people in our family ever to go on in education beyond 16. None of my cousins did.
I am most grateful to my parents for giving me the right attitude, and opening my eyes to being able to avoid that kind of life, which is just about all they could afford to give me. My Dad threw his chances away by getting expelled from a grammar school before getting any O Levels, and turned in to the man you describe so eloquently, but he didn't want that for me. I've avoided it all so far, and live comfortably, but I am constantly aware I'm only one wrong step (self inflicted or 'black swan' circumstantial) from losing it at any given moment as I haven't been able/fortunate enough to build a financial cushion (most disposable income goes on mortgage to live in a decent area and private schooling for my children), other than in illiquid property equity (and that's by fortune rather than ability I'll admit). Just hope I can hang on to things long enough to retire and realise the assets I do have.
Yours is an interesting post. It is indeed a tough world.
Does the current system work for many people? Can you appreciate why they would want to protest?I am most grateful to my parents for giving me the right attitude, and opening my eyes to being able to avoid that kind of life, which is just about all they could afford to give me. My Dad threw his chances away by getting expelled from a grammar school before getting any O Levels, and turned in to the man you describe so eloquently, but he didn't want that for me. I've avoided it all so far, and live comfortably, but I am constantly aware I'm only one wrong step (self inflicted or 'black swan' circumstantial) from losing it at any given moment as I haven't been able/fortunate enough to build a financial cushion (most disposable income goes on mortgage to live in a decent area and private schooling for my children), other than in illiquid property equity (and that's by fortune rather than ability I'll admit). Just hope I can hang on to things long enough to retire and realise the assets I do have.
Yours is an interesting post. It is indeed a tough world.
Thankyou4calling said:
Without exception they want to work and they work hard, the wages supplement their benefits and they live day to day, they are all ages, not many immigrants at all, mostly British.
I find that comment very disconcerting.Fundamentally, it should be the other way around and benefits supplement their income.
johnfm said:
Seems like an epiphany which has pricked the bubble we live in.
Makes it easier to understand Brexit vote when you realise many people do not care about GBP:USD exchange rate or the FTSE - as they don;t have a villa in Tuscany to complete on nor a share portfolio.
Indeed. Makes it easier to understand Brexit vote when you realise many people do not care about GBP:USD exchange rate or the FTSE - as they don;t have a villa in Tuscany to complete on nor a share portfolio.
The warehouse they and their mates used to work at are now only employing cheaper (better?) Eastern Europeans leaving them largely on zero-hours contracts or just unemployed. That some people are surprised by Brexit is itself surprising.
Edited by ReallyReallyGood on Wednesday 19th October 15:33
PurpleMoonlight said:
I find that comment very disconcerting.
Fundamentally, it should be the other way around and benefits supplement their income.
Apologies. I'd imagine their wages are more than their benefits so the mix I referred to is wrong but it seemed they all received some benefits as at every break they had to call some government office.Fundamentally, it should be the other way around and benefits supplement their income.
In that sense the benefits are allowing employers to pay low wages as they are topped up by tax payer money.
As someone said about living in a bubble, that's true in so many ways.
A lot of products, goods and services which are marketed on TV etc are simply lost on great swathes of the population as they simply aren't in that market, or really any market at all.
On PH we laugh at the council thread but the posts on there refer largely to people who consume things we think are council.
The workers I saw are barely consumers of anything. PAYG phones, lottery tickets, gaming, fags and monster energy drink is about it.
Digga said:
freshkid said:
How anyone can manage to go through life without encountering normal people is beyond me.
I think a lot of people - whatever their level in society - can and do tend to live in a bubble. Sometimes intentionally, other times out of pure ignorance.Work in a professional environment with other successful people, friends and family all from the same set. Unless you decide to strike up conversations with the office cleaner and such like how are you supposed to know how the rest of the country is doing?. Particularly if many of those struggling are geographically removed from you.
JagLover said:
I would say that this is very easy for many of the most successful.
Work in a professional environment with other successful people, friends and family all from the same set. Unless you decide to strike up conversations with the office cleaner and such like how are you supposed to know how the rest of the country is doing?. Particularly if many of those struggling are geographically removed from you.
Get practically involved in the community somehow?Work in a professional environment with other successful people, friends and family all from the same set. Unless you decide to strike up conversations with the office cleaner and such like how are you supposed to know how the rest of the country is doing?. Particularly if many of those struggling are geographically removed from you.
Thankyou4calling said:
I'd consider myself to be a relatively stereotypical pistonheader.
Powerfully built, company director, opinionated and into cars, property, watches and food.
I'm right of centre, a capitalist, a striver who wants to improve their lot.
Recently I sold a business and am moving house so in the interim I was delighted to secure a short term work contract managing the relocation of a business to new premises 17 miles away. I'm dealing with the planning, implementation, logistics, IT, utility and fixtures and fitting installations to make sure it's a seamless move and business continues.
D day is looming and so far so good.
I'm working with the directors, managers, supervisors but also hands on with the front line warehouse people. There are packers and sweepers and packers and in talking with them I've really had my eyes opened to a society I knew little about.
The company employs a lot of agency workers, they work for minimum wage and have no contract.
They can and are told to go home at any time and contacted by text when they are needed again.
I know a lot of people are employed like this on zero hours contracts but to see it in its rawest form is quite enlightening.
I thought e people working like this would be wasters. Scruffy, unreliable, disinterested. COUNCIL!
The sort you wouldn't trust to tie a shoelace.
Far from it!
I'm going to generalise and I've only had limited dealings but the people doing this work aren't like that at all.
They live in the same towns as you and I but they don't talk about house prices and loft conversions, there lives couldn't be further from this.
Without exception they want to work and they work hard, the wages supplement their benefits and they live day to day, they are all ages, not many immigrants at all, mostly British.
While we on PH talk about Brexit, Heathrow expansion and the merits of DSG gearboxes, they know absolutely nothing about those things or craft beer, costa coffee, Holland and Barrett or waitrose.
It's not that they aren't interested, it's simply that all they care about is earning £50 a day as many days as they can to buy fags, a pint or pay off a pay day loan which they all have.
They all have rubbish phones, most don't have a car, they ride an old bone shaker or walk 2 or 3 miles to work. They aren't looking for a carbon fibre frame, if they get a puncture they are sunk.
If you ask how the weekend was there is no talk of a restaurant they went to or a nice walk or a show they enjoyed. They don't watch much TV surprisingly. No X factor and reality shows, they are on their play station, a lot of gaming.
None have any plans other than hoping they win the lottery (they all buy tickets) they don't scour the web for holidays or right move and they don't go shopping for clothes.
They wear what they have and eat rubbish. Fizzy drinks, crisps, chocolate just stuff that we might have as a snack is their staple food. No croissants, no pasta, no aged steak.
It's quite remarkable to me that there are so many like this in this one firm so I guess there are thousands in the UK.
They aren't scum, they aren't work shy, they are just people trying to keep their head above water.
When their day is done they put on an old jacket and walk home.
It's made me look at people differently, I don't know if it's good or bad but I didn't think about it much.
I don't know if it makes me feel better about myself or worse but it is interesting.
Politicians are always on about trying to help people back to work, these people are at work, they don't seem to have dreams, goals of much hope beyond what they're doing.
I'm not drawing any conclusions just writing my thought.
Powerfully built, company director, opinionated and into cars, property, watches and food.
I'm right of centre, a capitalist, a striver who wants to improve their lot.
Recently I sold a business and am moving house so in the interim I was delighted to secure a short term work contract managing the relocation of a business to new premises 17 miles away. I'm dealing with the planning, implementation, logistics, IT, utility and fixtures and fitting installations to make sure it's a seamless move and business continues.
D day is looming and so far so good.
I'm working with the directors, managers, supervisors but also hands on with the front line warehouse people. There are packers and sweepers and packers and in talking with them I've really had my eyes opened to a society I knew little about.
The company employs a lot of agency workers, they work for minimum wage and have no contract.
They can and are told to go home at any time and contacted by text when they are needed again.
I know a lot of people are employed like this on zero hours contracts but to see it in its rawest form is quite enlightening.
I thought e people working like this would be wasters. Scruffy, unreliable, disinterested. COUNCIL!
The sort you wouldn't trust to tie a shoelace.
Far from it!
I'm going to generalise and I've only had limited dealings but the people doing this work aren't like that at all.
They live in the same towns as you and I but they don't talk about house prices and loft conversions, there lives couldn't be further from this.
Without exception they want to work and they work hard, the wages supplement their benefits and they live day to day, they are all ages, not many immigrants at all, mostly British.
While we on PH talk about Brexit, Heathrow expansion and the merits of DSG gearboxes, they know absolutely nothing about those things or craft beer, costa coffee, Holland and Barrett or waitrose.
It's not that they aren't interested, it's simply that all they care about is earning £50 a day as many days as they can to buy fags, a pint or pay off a pay day loan which they all have.
They all have rubbish phones, most don't have a car, they ride an old bone shaker or walk 2 or 3 miles to work. They aren't looking for a carbon fibre frame, if they get a puncture they are sunk.
If you ask how the weekend was there is no talk of a restaurant they went to or a nice walk or a show they enjoyed. They don't watch much TV surprisingly. No X factor and reality shows, they are on their play station, a lot of gaming.
None have any plans other than hoping they win the lottery (they all buy tickets) they don't scour the web for holidays or right move and they don't go shopping for clothes.
They wear what they have and eat rubbish. Fizzy drinks, crisps, chocolate just stuff that we might have as a snack is their staple food. No croissants, no pasta, no aged steak.
It's quite remarkable to me that there are so many like this in this one firm so I guess there are thousands in the UK.
They aren't scum, they aren't work shy, they are just people trying to keep their head above water.
When their day is done they put on an old jacket and walk home.
It's made me look at people differently, I don't know if it's good or bad but I didn't think about it much.
I don't know if it makes me feel better about myself or worse but it is interesting.
Politicians are always on about trying to help people back to work, these people are at work, they don't seem to have dreams, goals of much hope beyond what they're doing.
I'm not drawing any conclusions just writing my thought.
Edited by Thankyou4calling on Wednesday 19th October 14:56
JagLover said:
and it isn't just warehouse staff either.
My wife works in an office that provides outsourced office based support for some public sector organisations. Salaries pushed as low as they can go, minimal benefits, 40 contracted hours, no incentive to invest in staff as there is always someone else willing to do the job at the low salaries on offer when one leaves. I earn far more than her and we do fine as couple, but that isn't the case for most.
Combine this with rapidly rising house prices, and rental prices forecast to rise by 5% a year, and you are really seeing the formation of a "serf" class, that is only going to grow as a proportion of the population generation by generation as historic home ownership percentages are removed from the figures.
I used to work in a factory, this for my first 10 years in full-time employment. I was a printer. The strongest memory of it, now some weeks ago now, is the pride the men, for it was all men in those day, took in their work. I was a 16 year old and would shirk a bit on occasion but I would be told off not by the bosses but by my fellow workers, despite the fact that I did not give them any extra work.
At one time we had a job come in that had to be completed in short time and a machine broke down, putting the job at risk. All the blokes worked hard on the job, outside of their normal hours, to ensure it went out on time. No forcing, no overtime pay, and the union chap just nodded it through.
As the op said, these were the ones now classed by the press as wasters. Scruffy, unreliable, disinterested. COUNCIL, just as if they are some kid of underclass.
I enjoyed my time in the factory, and the biggest plus was the atmosphere. At the time I was living with my parents and they were trying for council accommodation. Wasters eh?
When I was reporting on the closure of the TVR factory, the guys I spoke with mentioned the same atmosphere of working together to produce something they took pride in. It was quite nostalgic.
FN2TypeR said:
Piersman2 said:
When I were but a lad we moved to Aberdeen as a family and my brother and I spent 2 years labouring for our parents converting some steadings to houses. This meant we both took 2 years out of education to effectively be labourers. As such we hung around and made mates with a few of the younger locals in the pubs around where we lived.
It was an eye opener. These guys had 1 fixation each week... to earn just enough to go out on Friday and Saturday night, get pissed, maybe a bit stoned, and see if they could find some slappers (this was a very rare occurence!). Any thoughts of bettering themselves, investing in the future, settling down, putting something aside, etc... just wasn't even a part of their thinking process.
I didn't understand their mentality then and I still don't really, other than to accept that folks are different, with differing aspirations and expectations from life.
Still not sure if it's nature or nurture. I suspect it's more down to nurture though.
They were tcheuchters living the arse end of no where I presume?It was an eye opener. These guys had 1 fixation each week... to earn just enough to go out on Friday and Saturday night, get pissed, maybe a bit stoned, and see if they could find some slappers (this was a very rare occurence!). Any thoughts of bettering themselves, investing in the future, settling down, putting something aside, etc... just wasn't even a part of their thinking process.
I didn't understand their mentality then and I still don't really, other than to accept that folks are different, with differing aspirations and expectations from life.
Still not sure if it's nature or nurture. I suspect it's more down to nurture though.
Standard!
Not far off the mark, up the Buckie coast. Their route to from rags to riches was to get a job offshore as scaffies. Riches beyond the avarice of man that way! 
sidicks said:
JagLover said:
I would say that this is very easy for many of the most successful.
Work in a professional environment with other successful people, friends and family all from the same set. Unless you decide to strike up conversations with the office cleaner and such like how are you supposed to know how the rest of the country is doing?. Particularly if many of those struggling are geographically removed from you.
Get practically involved in the community somehow?Work in a professional environment with other successful people, friends and family all from the same set. Unless you decide to strike up conversations with the office cleaner and such like how are you supposed to know how the rest of the country is doing?. Particularly if many of those struggling are geographically removed from you.
(1) sailing around the Greek Islands / skiing; or
(2) volunteering in the community to help people on a sink estate.
I tend to choose option (1).
johnfm said:
sidicks said:
JagLover said:
I would say that this is very easy for many of the most successful.
Work in a professional environment with other successful people, friends and family all from the same set. Unless you decide to strike up conversations with the office cleaner and such like how are you supposed to know how the rest of the country is doing?. Particularly if many of those struggling are geographically removed from you.
Get practically involved in the community somehow?Work in a professional environment with other successful people, friends and family all from the same set. Unless you decide to strike up conversations with the office cleaner and such like how are you supposed to know how the rest of the country is doing?. Particularly if many of those struggling are geographically removed from you.
(1) sailing around the Greek Islands / skiing; or
(2) volunteering in the community to help people on a sink estate.
I tend to choose option (1).
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