The reality of life for many MANY people.
Discussion
OP Is absolutely right in my experience.
I started to work at 11 serving petrol in Dublin ,and worked every holiday until I was 21. At 14 I was a temporary Kardex clerk ( long before PCs), and at 15 had lied my way into a job in London in an ice cream factory,then became a garbage collector. Got a union card .At the same time I got scholarships to school and university as we were poor despite a very hardworking father.
The education on a factory floor and in other lower paid jobs was at least as important to me in forming my view of life as the hugely different life of university where I was surrounded by privilege. I never for a second thought I was better than my workmates ,nor was I worse than my college friends. We we're all just born into different circumstances.
As time went by I built a career that moved from consulting to transportation to telecommunications and had some very senior executive positions. After I retired from full time at 60 I did the company director and investor route and so on. I have the most vivid memories of being at the bottom of the pile. Even when I had to do some very painful things,...( In one case cutting 11,000 jobs to save a company facing bankruptcy ,which then went to great success and saved and improved the other 20,000), I was very conscious of the pain this would cause,and we did as much as we could for the people who lost their jobs.
I never understood the many threads that seem to sneer at or be enraged at those less fortunate. It is tough to get a job out there and there is much less security that there used to be. We are all on a global competitiveness scale, and part of the societal unease is that most people do not really understand why job disappear....
1),,The growth of robotics and intelligent systems such as self driving cars, analytical systems and the like will decimate traditional employment in the next 20 years
2) Global companies make investment decisions on a fairly complex algorithm than includes labour force,tax,cost,political stability,logistics,contract law and so on, so each country now has to have an attractive climate for investment
3) Traditional defined benefit pension plans have basically disappeared
4) People are living much longer which will pressure traditional social services.
So, its going to get worse, and I have the greatest synth for those facing an increasingly challenging future.
I started to work at 11 serving petrol in Dublin ,and worked every holiday until I was 21. At 14 I was a temporary Kardex clerk ( long before PCs), and at 15 had lied my way into a job in London in an ice cream factory,then became a garbage collector. Got a union card .At the same time I got scholarships to school and university as we were poor despite a very hardworking father.
The education on a factory floor and in other lower paid jobs was at least as important to me in forming my view of life as the hugely different life of university where I was surrounded by privilege. I never for a second thought I was better than my workmates ,nor was I worse than my college friends. We we're all just born into different circumstances.
As time went by I built a career that moved from consulting to transportation to telecommunications and had some very senior executive positions. After I retired from full time at 60 I did the company director and investor route and so on. I have the most vivid memories of being at the bottom of the pile. Even when I had to do some very painful things,...( In one case cutting 11,000 jobs to save a company facing bankruptcy ,which then went to great success and saved and improved the other 20,000), I was very conscious of the pain this would cause,and we did as much as we could for the people who lost their jobs.
I never understood the many threads that seem to sneer at or be enraged at those less fortunate. It is tough to get a job out there and there is much less security that there used to be. We are all on a global competitiveness scale, and part of the societal unease is that most people do not really understand why job disappear....
1),,The growth of robotics and intelligent systems such as self driving cars, analytical systems and the like will decimate traditional employment in the next 20 years
2) Global companies make investment decisions on a fairly complex algorithm than includes labour force,tax,cost,political stability,logistics,contract law and so on, so each country now has to have an attractive climate for investment
3) Traditional defined benefit pension plans have basically disappeared
4) People are living much longer which will pressure traditional social services.
So, its going to get worse, and I have the greatest synth for those facing an increasingly challenging future.
BoRED S2upid said:
It doesn't mean these people aren't any less happy that you or I. I've had friends in such positions in life living in council houses or regulars when I had a pub and in general they are friendlier, more genuine and honest than far wealthier folk I've dealt with who wouldn't give you the time of day. It's a different, simpler life and it suits a lot of people.
Tend to be more generous and less waffley as well.anonymous said:
[redacted]
The UK apparently has the lowest literacy rate, and third lowest numeracy rate in the developed world, and 3 times more low skilled young people than the leading countries. Not sure how you define the rick/poor gap but things like numeracy and literacy are massive barriers to social mobility
And who is to blame for that? It's easy to blame the system but in reality it's more to do with the parents / kids themselves. The mechanisms for them to better themselves are there, if they can't be bothered to make use of them then that's their problem in my view. Can lead a horse to water...Then again I've worked with 2 people who left school with I think 1 O-level between them, one of them left the Navy as a Lieutenant Commander having flown Lynx for several years, and the other had worked his way up to a PhD, so it can be done, but I suspect they're in the minority.
Also several mentions of people starting their own companies, something like 80-90% of them fail in the first couple of years - although that figure is probably slightly skewed by us contracting types who close the company down to go and work full time for a while again.
TTwiggy said:
No, they are simply examples of a handful of cases where large capital wasn't required. Hence my saying 'many cases', rather than 'all cases' in the quote above.
Have you heard of venture capitalists? Funding rounds? If you have a good idea and are talented and determined, you can get capital.TTwiggy said:
Alex said:
TTwiggy said:
Hard (or even smart) work is not a gateway to guaranteed betterment.
Yes. It is.Lovely jubbly.
Nanook said:
TTwiggy said:
To detail the exact nature of these barriers and how they stand in the way of some, but not others, would require a very lengthy (circa 1000 word) treatise on economics. So you'll have to accept that I have better things to do right now.
I'm not a defeatist (no room for them in the military
), but I've been around the block (maybe more times that you have) and I've seen life at many different levels. Hard (or even smart) work is not a gateway to guaranteed betterment.
So your life experience is fact, and mine is wrong?I'm not a defeatist (no room for them in the military
), but I've been around the block (maybe more times that you have) and I've seen life at many different levels. Hard (or even smart) work is not a gateway to guaranteed betterment. I've seen people work hard, gain skills and knowledge, and improve their lot as a result. It can be done. It doesn't work for everyone, because not everyone tries hard enough. Some people will go to work every day and try really hard and wonder why their manager isn't promoting them or chucking money at them.
It doesn't work like that.
Do you have any examples? Do you know anyone that's tried really hard to improve themselves, gain experience, new knowledge of qualifications, that hasn't managed to improve their own life in any way, shape or form?
Or are you just saying "I know better, the world doesn't work like that, man"?
What do you do for a living?
My current job is in print media. Specifically editing magazines. A Magazine only has one editor by the way - do you think I got the job because I worked harder than everyone else?
Nanook said:
TTwiggy said:
My experience is mine, yours is yours. I wouldn't presume to tell you I'm right as I realise that life isn't black and white (rather like the view that work hard = betterment/don't work hard = failure).
My current job is in print media. Specifically editing magazines. A Magazine only has one editor by the way - do you think I got the job because I worked harder than everyone else?
I'd hope you got the job because you added value My current job is in print media. Specifically editing magazines. A Magazine only has one editor by the way - do you think I got the job because I worked harder than everyone else?
Why did you get the job?
And that example I asked for, you ignored me. Do you have one please?
I got my job for various reasons. 'Hard work' was not a prime influence.
BOR said:
Ruskie said:
Alex said:
The market rewards value, not effort. Find a career that adds value, and you will be rewarded.
If everyone thought like that then society really would be f
ked.MikeT66 said:
As usual, Digga, you raise excellent points. I think many, many people looked at how little they had/how few prospects they had and thought a change in the status quo was probably worth the gamble. I saw a very thought-provoking video on YouTube showing the viewpoints from people in a forgotten and disenfranchised area of Doncaster where all the jobs had disappeared due to the collapse of the mining industry. People with nothing to lose are more willing to gamble on a future.
At the time of the vote, I was talking to someone at work who's the image of the person this thread is about.He was excited and just said he didn't think it would suddenly become utopia due to leaving the EU, but it couldn't get any worse so why not give it a shot.
You live your life with no idea how to get out of the minimum wage rut, council housing and lifestyle that goes with it, of course you're eager to see if you can change something. It's only logical.
I know far, far too many people this thread describes. I think it's very condescending to suggest they're all happy with it because they don't know better - they see their bosses in Mercedes and Range Rovers and they become resigned to doing what they've always done. It just seems too far away.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Hard work doesn't necessarily mean being good at something. I'm sure we all had subjects at school we had to work really hard at while others breezed through, and vice versa. Someone with natural talent who works hard is always going to beat someone with no talent who works as hard or harder.Nanook said:
TTwiggy said:
I could give you an example, but you'd have no way of verifying it, so it would add nothing to this debate.
I got my job for various reasons. 'Hard work' was not a prime influence.
I'd like to hear one anyway, if you would.I got my job for various reasons. 'Hard work' was not a prime influence.
So, you didn't get your job because you're good at it? Perhaps we have different understandings of what constitutes "hard work'.
I like to think that I'm good at me job, but I didn't 'work hard' to get so.
TTwiggy said:
Ok. There's a chap in my office who works very hard indeed and does work for our publisher and CEO that's well above his pay grade. I'm unable to promote him and our management won't pay him anything extra however. He's stuck where he is by virtue of the fact that people above him are not moving on, as our industry is not very buoyant. He could take his skills elsewhere, but he maybe lacks confidence, is worried about job security and enjoys his role. That said, if 'hard work' is meant to lead to success, it hasn't for him. Effectively, we take advantage of him.
I like to think that I'm good at me job, but I didn't 'work hard' to get so.
Your firm isn't obliged to pay him any more than the lowest he'll accept, though. If he's unwilling to negotiate or change company to find a better salary, then that's not your firms' problem?I like to think that I'm good at me job, but I didn't 'work hard' to get so.
The only reason any company pays anybody is to ensure they stay, when you drill down to it...
The further away you get from the basic "provide something of value to us and we'll provide something of value to you" transaction, the more you get this weird kind of entitlement creep in. I don't mean that in an accusative way, just an observation - you think he should be entitled to a promotion or a pay rise because of the work he's done, but no negotiation has taken place and no agreement to that effect has been reached. If he is unhappy then he should negotiate a rise and if he can't negotiate a rise then he should leave for greener pastures. If he won't do either of those things then nobody owes him anything else because who's to say he's not perfectly happy where he is? People too often are spineless these days.
Edited by OwenK on Thursday 20th October 18:05
Alex said:
TTwiggy said:
You can circumvent this by starting your own company of course, but in many cases that will require a capital investment beyond the reach of many people, no matter how talented they are.
Google, Apple, Facebook, Airbnb, prove you wrong. If you are talented and determined, you'll be beating off capital investment.The OP is talking about people who put things in boxes or smile at customers for a living and whose friends also do menial work, too. Maybe if they're an immigrant, or have a successful uncle or something they'll have the spark to get out of the rut, but if everyone you know is in the same position as you and you've spent your past few years earning a low wage and following the football, you're probably not going to have a Eureka moment. And even if you do, not everyone will-the reason we buy the autobiography of these guys is that they are exceptional, after all.
Most people don't have careers in my experience, they have jobs. And even well educated people aren't all going to ditch their research degree to become Alan Sugar just because they've read Rich Dad Poor Dad.
Now that I think of it, my friends with PhD's seem a pretty 50/50 split between doing quite well for themselves and stuck in an academic cul-de-sac which they lack the life skills to escape from. I certainly feel that formal education or even intelligence is over-egged as a means of social mobility, though it can certainly be a tool.
RDMcG said:
I started to work at 11 serving petrol in Dublin ,and worked every holiday until I was 21. At 14 I was a temporary Kardex clerk ( long before PCs), and at 15 had lied my way into a job in London in an ice cream factory,then became a garbage collector. Got a union card .At the same time I got scholarships to school and university as we were poor despite a very hardworking father.
The education on a factory floor and in other lower paid jobs was at least as important to me in forming my view of life as the hugely different life of university where I was surrounded by privilege. I never for a second thought I was better than my workmates ,nor was I worse than my college friends. We we're all just born into different circumstances.
Interesting post. I had quite a few jobs as a student which provided similar education and empathy with the ordinary working person. They also gave me respect for the way some firms nurture and empower their workers.The education on a factory floor and in other lower paid jobs was at least as important to me in forming my view of life as the hugely different life of university where I was surrounded by privilege. I never for a second thought I was better than my workmates ,nor was I worse than my college friends. We we're all just born into different circumstances.
As for people mixing, one of the best instances ever was within a group of mountain bikers I used to do a regular, mid week night ride with. The two extremes of character in the group; a very entertaining but extremely foul-mouthed brickie and an very old-money (3rd generation) factory owner, who lived in a stately home. Both lovely - I'm still in touch with both - guys but their mutual respect for one another and their friendship was still astonishing. I do think shared interests, of all sorts, can bridge significant and manifold differences.
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