The reality of life for many MANY people.
Discussion
NinjaPower said:
To be fair, my CV is ok.
Decent A levels, Uni Degree, a few good jobs, and an absolute s
tload of other qualifications and courses that I've done through work.
I think a few people took my post the wrong way.
I've put in the work and the hours, came up with good ideas, tried to do my best and produce results, but what has helped me move upwards is the liberal addition of social skills. That's the bit that people often fall down on or just don't want to do.
I admire your honesty, it's definitely my experience of uk industry but it's never admitted. Some people just aren't social and haven't the inter personal skills you have/ use/ have acquired etc. It's slightly worrying though as some may be an asset to profitability, but don't play golf. Decent A levels, Uni Degree, a few good jobs, and an absolute s
tload of other qualifications and courses that I've done through work.I think a few people took my post the wrong way.
I've put in the work and the hours, came up with good ideas, tried to do my best and produce results, but what has helped me move upwards is the liberal addition of social skills. That's the bit that people often fall down on or just don't want to do.
NinjaPower said:
Probably one of the most accurate statements in this thread.
I'll fully admit to being a 'brown-noser' or whatever you want to call it.
I'm now self employed, but previously I worked in housing for about 12 years after leaving Uni, and by the time I left, I was working for the 4th biggest housing provider in the UK and had worked my way up to a point were I pretty much spent many of my days in fairly top-level meetings with the directors and CEO. I was above 'middle management' if you want to call it that, and doing pretty well.
I managed this not because I'm the most intelligent guy around or exceptional at my job, but by adapting my attitude and behaviour to impress my managers. If I got invited out on a work night or invited for food and drinks with the management, I would always go, and I would always make a point of chatting to them, agreeing with them and becoming their 'mate'. I would try to be humorous, polite, and eager. If I was put upon to produce some work at short notice I would just smile and say 'no problem at all', instead of huffing and moaning about it. I would volunteer for things that others would try to avoid. I made sure that management liked me, and liked having me around.
During parts of my career I was tasked with managing small teams of staff, and it became apparent that one or two of them had an issue with being managed by a 30 year old, when they had spent the last 25 years 'slogging away' for the company and seemingly getting nowhere. What became clear to me was that these people were irritating, boring, unsociable, awkward, a stickler for rules, quiet or rude. Not all at the same time of course, but you get my point. They were passed by for promotion or any form of advancement because frankly, no one liked them. Or rather no one in senior management liked them.
You can shout and complain about the unfairness of this all you want, but it's just the reality in business and the workplace. Not everywhere or for every job, but quite widespread.
If you want to get on in your career, just suck it up and try to get on with those around you and above you, even if you dislike them.
When I started my first job, my boss told me one day "if you want to climb the ladder, learn to play golf". At the time I didn't think too much of it, but as the years of employment went past, it quickly became apparent what he meant.
Jesus Christ.I'll fully admit to being a 'brown-noser' or whatever you want to call it.
I'm now self employed, but previously I worked in housing for about 12 years after leaving Uni, and by the time I left, I was working for the 4th biggest housing provider in the UK and had worked my way up to a point were I pretty much spent many of my days in fairly top-level meetings with the directors and CEO. I was above 'middle management' if you want to call it that, and doing pretty well.
I managed this not because I'm the most intelligent guy around or exceptional at my job, but by adapting my attitude and behaviour to impress my managers. If I got invited out on a work night or invited for food and drinks with the management, I would always go, and I would always make a point of chatting to them, agreeing with them and becoming their 'mate'. I would try to be humorous, polite, and eager. If I was put upon to produce some work at short notice I would just smile and say 'no problem at all', instead of huffing and moaning about it. I would volunteer for things that others would try to avoid. I made sure that management liked me, and liked having me around.
During parts of my career I was tasked with managing small teams of staff, and it became apparent that one or two of them had an issue with being managed by a 30 year old, when they had spent the last 25 years 'slogging away' for the company and seemingly getting nowhere. What became clear to me was that these people were irritating, boring, unsociable, awkward, a stickler for rules, quiet or rude. Not all at the same time of course, but you get my point. They were passed by for promotion or any form of advancement because frankly, no one liked them. Or rather no one in senior management liked them.
You can shout and complain about the unfairness of this all you want, but it's just the reality in business and the workplace. Not everywhere or for every job, but quite widespread.
If you want to get on in your career, just suck it up and try to get on with those around you and above you, even if you dislike them.
When I started my first job, my boss told me one day "if you want to climb the ladder, learn to play golf". At the time I didn't think too much of it, but as the years of employment went past, it quickly became apparent what he meant.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
fk me:
you have a higher income than around 96% of the population - equivalent to about 60.9 million individuals.
That's depressing.
Same boat as you. Not sure on your family situation but I'm married no kids.k me:you have a higher income than around 96% of the population - equivalent to about 60.9 million individuals.
That's depressing.
What do people think the solution is?
Would a cap on the multiple between the lowest paid and the highest paid within an organisation be workable? Forcing those at the top to increase the pay of those below if they wanted to increase their own income?
Just thinking out loud.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not just living a life, but even if you are a go-getter who wants to make something of themselves, how do you do it? And how do you keep that kind of easy-going positive abundance mindset when you're worried about your car failing it's MOT?I've a pal who was working two jobs whilst doing his masters and supporting his wife who was looking after their newborn son all at the same time. Chatting to him over a pint (I waited outside the pub because his phone ran out of credit) I quickly realized that I had nothing to complain about at all- simply being single and responsible for only myself feels like having a superpower compared to some of my friends with kids. Their shot at their own social mobility is finished and it'll be up to their kids to pick up the torch.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Multiples cap wouldent work. They would just pay themselves whatever it takes to keep miminum wagers on minimum.. then the rest would just be extracted as dividends or some other fancy finacial vehicle that isn't measured by whatever calculates the multiples thing
Make the legislation cover all forms of income (including pension contributions etc) received from an organisation, it's parents and any subsidiaries. If the will existed it could be done.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sounds about right. I'm in that household income range and have spent the last 9 mths saving to get central heating fitted as thee is no heating in the house. Prior to this I spent nearly 10years saving for the house deposit, but job losses and cars dying endlessly kept nibbling away at it.. for years it just didn't seem to grow. But I got there.. and immediately there are more tthings to save for. Its going to be a long hard slog.I drive a £180 kia rio (05) and the mrs an 02 C5.
have just replaced her car as the subframe failed on her old one.
This has really made me think - we just bought a new Maclaren double buggy without a moment's thought (we have #2 on the way) - that is pretty much nearly a third of my sister's take home pay a month.
Hmm. I've come a long way from as a child having to wear second hand clothes, existing on (cheap) stew and being in a house with no heating. I think it pays to remember you can easily end up back there.
Hmm. I've come a long way from as a child having to wear second hand clothes, existing on (cheap) stew and being in a house with no heating. I think it pays to remember you can easily end up back there.
NinjaPower said:
I'll fully admit to being a 'brown-noser' or whatever you want to call it.
I'm now self employed, but previously I worked in housing for about 12 years after leaving Uni, and by the time I left, I was working for the 4th biggest housing provider in the UK and had worked my way up to a point were I pretty much spent many of my days in fairly top-level meetings with the directors and CEO. I was above 'middle management' if you want to call it that, and doing pretty well.
I managed this not because I'm the most intelligent guy around or exceptional at my job, but by adapting my attitude and behaviour to impress my managers. If I got invited out on a work night or invited for food and drinks with the management, I would always go, and I would always make a point of chatting to them, agreeing with them and becoming their 'mate'. I would try to be humorous, polite, and eager. If I was put upon to produce some work at short notice I would just smile and say 'no problem at all', instead of huffing and moaning about it. I would volunteer for things that others would try to avoid. I made sure that management liked me, and liked having me around.
During parts of my career I was tasked with managing small teams of staff, and it became apparent that one or two of them had an issue with being managed by a 30 year old, when they had spent the last 25 years 'slogging away' for the company and seemingly getting nowhere. What became clear to me was that these people were irritating, boring, unsociable, awkward, a stickler for rules, quiet or rude. Not all at the same time of course, but you get my point. They were passed by for promotion or any form of advancement because frankly, no one liked them. Or rather no one in senior management liked them.
You can shout and complain about the unfairness of this all you want, but it's just the reality in business and the workplace. Not everywhere or for every job, but quite widespread.
If you want to get on in your career, just suck it up and try to get on with those around you and above you, even if you dislike them.
When I started my first job, my boss told me one day "if you want to climb the ladder, learn to play golf". At the time I didn't think too much of it, but as the years of employment went past, it quickly became apparent what he meant.
While your post does have a certain "cringeworthiness" to it I don't think it deserved all the hater replies that followed. You make some good points and you are absolutely right on the bits highlighted. Just being good at your job is rarely enough to climb the ladder at many places. Your face needs to fit with the right people and you need to have the interpersonal skills to go with it. There's a very fine balance between being willing to go the extra mile to help out so that you make yourself look good and be remembered vs. being taken for a mug and expected to bail them out of the sI'm now self employed, but previously I worked in housing for about 12 years after leaving Uni, and by the time I left, I was working for the 4th biggest housing provider in the UK and had worked my way up to a point were I pretty much spent many of my days in fairly top-level meetings with the directors and CEO. I was above 'middle management' if you want to call it that, and doing pretty well.
I managed this not because I'm the most intelligent guy around or exceptional at my job, but by adapting my attitude and behaviour to impress my managers. If I got invited out on a work night or invited for food and drinks with the management, I would always go, and I would always make a point of chatting to them, agreeing with them and becoming their 'mate'. I would try to be humorous, polite, and eager. If I was put upon to produce some work at short notice I would just smile and say 'no problem at all', instead of huffing and moaning about it. I would volunteer for things that others would try to avoid. I made sure that management liked me, and liked having me around.
During parts of my career I was tasked with managing small teams of staff, and it became apparent that one or two of them had an issue with being managed by a 30 year old, when they had spent the last 25 years 'slogging away' for the company and seemingly getting nowhere. What became clear to me was that these people were irritating, boring, unsociable, awkward, a stickler for rules, quiet or rude. Not all at the same time of course, but you get my point. They were passed by for promotion or any form of advancement because frankly, no one liked them. Or rather no one in senior management liked them.
You can shout and complain about the unfairness of this all you want, but it's just the reality in business and the workplace. Not everywhere or for every job, but quite widespread.
If you want to get on in your career, just suck it up and try to get on with those around you and above you, even if you dislike them.
When I started my first job, my boss told me one day "if you want to climb the ladder, learn to play golf". At the time I didn't think too much of it, but as the years of employment went past, it quickly became apparent what he meant.
t every time. Same goes for mingling with management in the right circumstances without coming across as being a brown nose. If you can master the skill of getting that balance just right you rarely have anything to worry about in terms of job security and progression. As Ninja says, like or it not, this is reality in business and the workplace these days and I too have done very well for myself using similar methods.Some very interesting view-points on this thread. Some of the replies made me think of an old friend... left the army after the Falklands war with a decent payoff, enough to start his own business. That did very,very well, and he had fairly strong views on the poor ("lazy/feckless/anyone can get rich if they want to - look at me") and left-wing politics. We had, shall we say, some interesting discussions around this, and then tended to avoid the subject for the sake of friendship as neither of us would change our views. That was until he ended up getting divorced and the subsequent failure of his business. He soon found himself living off his new girlfriend's part-time wage, struggling to put food on the table and keep the roof over their heads. He saw a very different side of life at that point, and changed his ideas on 'the poor' and what keeps them poor.
Edited by MikeT66 on Friday 21st October 06:22
All that jazz said:
While your post does have a certain "cringeworthiness" to it I don't think it deserved all the hater replies that followed. You make some good points and you are absolutely right on the bits highlighted. Just being good at your job is rarely enough to climb the ladder at many places. Your face needs to fit with the right people and you need to have the interpersonal skills to go with it. There's a very fine balance between being willing to go the extra mile to help out so that you make yourself look good and be remembered vs. being taken for a mug and expected to bail them out of the st every time. Same goes for mingling with management in the right circumstances without coming across as being a brown nose. If you can master the skill of getting that balance just right you rarely have anything to worry about in terms of job security and progression. As Ninja says, like or it not, this is reality in business and the workplace these days and I too have done very well for myself using similar methods.
Completely agree. Seen many examples of this at play and many very intelligent people who can't understand why they don't get promoted on the basis of being intelligent alone.t every time. Same goes for mingling with management in the right circumstances without coming across as being a brown nose. If you can master the skill of getting that balance just right you rarely have anything to worry about in terms of job security and progression. As Ninja says, like or it not, this is reality in business and the workplace these days and I too have done very well for myself using similar methods.ReallyReallyGood said:
johnfm said:
Seems like an epiphany which has pricked the bubble we live in.
Makes it easier to understand Brexit vote when you realise many people do not care about GBP:USD exchange rate or the FTSE - as they don;t have a villa in Tuscany to complete on nor a share portfolio.
Indeed. Makes it easier to understand Brexit vote when you realise many people do not care about GBP:USD exchange rate or the FTSE - as they don;t have a villa in Tuscany to complete on nor a share portfolio.
The warehouse they and their mates used to work at are now only employing cheaper (better?) Eastern Europeans leaving them largely on zero-hours contracts or just unemployed. That some people are surprised by Brexit is itself surprising.
You can't get to the top if you're a YesMan (if that's your aim)
Because YesMen always have to have someone senior they help and never have the ultimate say. Never better than second place Many hang on in there thinking if they're 'nice' enough they'll be left a legacy but they're really just a statue to someone else's pigeon
Because YesMen always have to have someone senior they help and never have the ultimate say. Never better than second place Many hang on in there thinking if they're 'nice' enough they'll be left a legacy but they're really just a statue to someone else's pigeon
Thankyou4calling said:
The benefits are allowing employers to pay low wages as they are topped up by tax payer money.
I think believing that puts many people in one of the biggest bubbles of all, and until that gets burst, the whole economy is going to struggle!Let's say you raised the minimum wage to £12 so that you can get rid of those in work benefits. What happens next?
- Any UK exporter currently exporting commodity goods is going to see their exports collapse because they'll suddenly be so uncompetitive.
- Any UK domestic manufacturer with any imported competition is going to see their sales collapse for the same reason.
- It would be a good time to have shares in automated warehousing or drone delivery companies, because all of a sudden, there's going to be an even greater incentive to install them.
- Prices in the shops will rocket for everyone, and that will hit the very people you're trying to take out of benefits disproportionately.
To my mind, the problem is that successive governments seem to have completely given up on the notion of making the bulk of the workforce in this country competitive on the world stage, and instead are just throwing lots and lots of money at keeping the least competitive from starting a revolution.
Nobody would want to return to the inequalities of the Victorian era, but the reason we were the greatest Superpower the world has ever seen and probably ever will is because we happened to have a perfect storm of world-beating technology and pitifully low wages. Nowadays, in many areas, we've still got the world-beating technology, but we've got this huge millstone round our collective necks of a massive proportion of the population not having the skills to allow them not to need to compete with people earning those pitifully low wages in developing economies.
If you go to this website, you can see the breakdown of how income tax is spent. A typical less well off PHer living hand to mouth on a mere £133,760 per annum would be paying £15.28 per day of their taxes towards "family & children", "the socially excluded" and "the unemployed", but only £8.95 on education, and that's without considering what proportion of the £9.75 spent on sickness and disability might be avoidable with better skills for those currently claiming on that.
OK, it'll never completely go away, but just imagine what would we could do as a country if we were able to spend £24+ per day on education instead of £8.95? How much more competitive could we make our workforce? How much could we increase our GDP by? How much more profitable could our companies become?
Of course, there will always be a need for people doing low skill jobs such as waiters and the like, but even there, if everyone else is earning more, and the tax burden per person can therefore decrease, their employers could afford to pay them a decent living wage, because even with higher prices, people would still have more in their pockets at the end of the week.
The real challenge is how you manage to divert the money from benefits to education for long enough to improve the lot of enough people without putting them into grinding poverty first?
SystemParanoia said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
fk me:
you have a higher income than around 96% of the population - equivalent to about 60.9 million individuals.
That's depressing.
Same boat as you. Not sure on your family situation but I'm married no kids.k me:you have a higher income than around 96% of the population - equivalent to about 60.9 million individuals.
That's depressing.
What do people think the solution is?
Would a cap on the multiple between the lowest paid and the highest paid within an organisation be workable? Forcing those at the top to increase the pay of those below if they wanted to increase their own income?
Just thinking out loud.
But, lowering the pay of the few won't address the actual problem that the masses have been released to borrow money to synthesise a higher level of income and this in turn massively elevates spending which leads to shop rents increasing, housing rents and purchase costs increasing and just 8 years ago the amount of such debt was so horrifically high that interest rates had to be dropped to zero and today that level of debt is still growing.
What fueled the wealth divide has been easy credit. What has reshaped our high streets has been easy credit. What has elevated Govt spending to near unmanageable levels has been easy credit.
Cut the easy credit and you reshape Britain. You end the housing crisis by making tents and assets affordable. But it would be a somewhat messy transition to say the least and it would mean going back to nothing being shiny and new every couple of years. But the whole of the UK is living in a facade that is propped up by repeatedly spending its children's future tax receipts.
So it's important to appreciate that whatever reason or cure the media or State proposes for the wealth divide and situation we find ourselves in there was only one cause and there is only one cure. But no one wants to face the consequences of trying to deal with 30 years of excess spending.
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