The reality of life for many MANY people.
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Efbe said:
No, I don't think there is a part of this country that this will not pervade.
This does not address the point though, which is how can people get off the lowest rung.
By firstly accepting that you can't get all people off the lowest rung. Then that the best will get themselves off the lowest rung or more practically ensure that their children start the process of moving up from the bottom. Then, finally, the job of the State is to to attempt as best it can to see who wants to or can make the move and to be there to assist and guide. This does not address the point though, which is how can people get off the lowest rung.
But as the competence of someone's parents is probably the single most important thing in how most will grow up then it would probably make sense to start teaching basic parenting skills at school as very clearly we still have a big problem in that regard.
However, for all the faults of the current system and despite the hate propaganda of the tabloids fuelling the damaged minds of the disturbed and self loathing the fact remains that it has pulled more people out of poverty and allowed them to take proper steps upwards than any mechanism that has gone before.
Whilst I may not like how the benefits system works, I do approve of having one. The main part I dislike is the inability of people to get off it. I think it should be a much more gradual line up to a certain threshold, with partners income taken into consideration too for both benefits and taxation. It should always be more lucrative to work than not too. However this is a discussion for another time.
For now, I still find it very irritating how affluent people judge those at the bottom of the pile. The expectation they do not and have not tried, and the idea that those that have been given all the privileges in life are more worthy, intelligent and astute.
SystemParanoia said:
They're all like that in permie roles.
The only decent ones Ive found have been while contracting... and i assure you, that is not the norm even then.
Overall they're not pleasant, they're not polite, and they huff and puff when you don't ask how high when they say jump.
They also REALLY dont like it when you go above their head to highlight a problem that they've been kicking the can on for however long
This seems an exact replica of an earlier post you made. Do you just write the same thing when you don't get the attention you like? I have found the opposite actually. The contractors have little clue about people management and just do the minimum and permie managers actually care about staff development.The only decent ones Ive found have been while contracting... and i assure you, that is not the norm even then.
Overall they're not pleasant, they're not polite, and they huff and puff when you don't ask how high when they say jump.
They also REALLY dont like it when you go above their head to highlight a problem that they've been kicking the can on for however long
Alex said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Why not?It sounds like you believe in the fixed pie fallacy.
Wealth divides are good and in fact absolutely necessary to fuel our basic human instincts but when they reach the point that it is almost impossible to make the leap from one level to the next you get discord. At the same time the human nature of 'keeping up with the Joneses' becomes destructive as people latterly destroy themselves to try and keep up with the next level above them.
We can see a slightly clearer example of this reflected in house prices as the gap between each progressive property type widens then people stretch themselves further and further to make the next jump up to the point that they are almost destitute in terms of spare income capacity. And when the gap gets too wide to bridge with debt then the market simply begins to fail.
You need a gap to stimulate mobility but not too wide that mobility once again halts. Whether we have reached that point I simply don't know but it does feel that we are very close and in some places like London maybe we have crossed over?
johnwilliams77 said:
SystemParanoia said:
They're all like that in permie roles.
The only decent ones Ive found have been while contracting... and i assure you, that is not the norm even then.
Overall they're not pleasant, they're not polite, and they huff and puff when you don't ask how high when they say jump.
They also REALLY dont like it when you go above their head to highlight a problem that they've been kicking the can on for however long
This seems an exact replica of an earlier post you made. Do you just write the same thing when you don't get the attention you like? I have found the opposite actually. The contractors have little clue about people management and just do the minimum and permie managers actually care about staff development.The only decent ones Ive found have been while contracting... and i assure you, that is not the norm even then.
Overall they're not pleasant, they're not polite, and they huff and puff when you don't ask how high when they say jump.
They also REALLY dont like it when you go above their head to highlight a problem that they've been kicking the can on for however long
Ive just finished a contractor role. I did not do the bare minimum and neither did my contractor colleagues. So your argument fails immediately right there.
One of my previos roles mentioned earlier. Permie managers offered no staff development for anyone that wasn't a sychophant. so ahain. your argument fails.
This is long term personal experience witnessed in countless businesses over the past few decades.
SystemParanoia said:
What a surprise you find the opposite of me.
Ive just finished a contractor role. I did not do the bare minimum and neither did my contractor colleagues. So your argument fails immediately right there.
One of my previos roles mentioned earlier. Permie managers offered no staff development for anyone that wasn't a sychophant. so ahain. your argument fails.
It's not an argument - it's an explanation of my experience.Ive just finished a contractor role. I did not do the bare minimum and neither did my contractor colleagues. So your argument fails immediately right there.
One of my previos roles mentioned earlier. Permie managers offered no staff development for anyone that wasn't a sychophant. so ahain. your argument fails.
DonkeyApple said:
One of the issues of a large wealth gap is the psychological growth of the 'them and us' syndrome which serves to split a society. So even if those at the bottom are still fantastically better off than say their Victorian counterparts then regardless of this you still get social unrest and divide due to the enormity of the gap between them and those at the very top.
Wealth divides are good and in fact absolutely necessary to fuel our basic human instincts but when they reach the point that it is almost impossible to make the leap from one level to the next you get discord. At the same time the human nature of 'keeping up with the Joneses' becomes destructive as people latterly destroy themselves to try and keep up with the next level above them.
We can see a slightly clearer example of this reflected in house prices as the gap between each progressive property type widens then people stretch themselves further and further to make the next jump up to the point that they are almost destitute in terms of spare income capacity. And when the gap gets too wide to bridge with debt then the market simply begins to fail.
You need a gap to stimulate mobility but not too wide that mobility once again halts. Whether we have reached that point I simply don't know but it does feel that we are very close and in some places like London maybe we have crossed over?
So what do you propose? Tax the rich? Restrict start-ups so there won't be another Microsoft or Facebook or Google? Any attempt to reduce "inequality" will make everyone poorer.Wealth divides are good and in fact absolutely necessary to fuel our basic human instincts but when they reach the point that it is almost impossible to make the leap from one level to the next you get discord. At the same time the human nature of 'keeping up with the Joneses' becomes destructive as people latterly destroy themselves to try and keep up with the next level above them.
We can see a slightly clearer example of this reflected in house prices as the gap between each progressive property type widens then people stretch themselves further and further to make the next jump up to the point that they are almost destitute in terms of spare income capacity. And when the gap gets too wide to bridge with debt then the market simply begins to fail.
You need a gap to stimulate mobility but not too wide that mobility once again halts. Whether we have reached that point I simply don't know but it does feel that we are very close and in some places like London maybe we have crossed over?
Alex said:
So what do you propose? Tax the rich? Restrict start-ups so there won't be another Microsoft or Facebook or Google? Any attempt to reduce "inequality" will make everyone poorer.
Those tend to be melodramatic arguments from left/right media to be honest. First you need to establish if the divide in the UK is at the point of doing critical social damage and then, once you've deleted the anamolous super rich who are here for tax and lifestyle purposes, see what the true divide is etc.
In terms of action to take, raising taxes on the rich just makes everyone poorer. If anything taxation should be lowered for the very wealthy and the extra tax then raised used to further remove people at the bottom from taxation.
I actually tend to agree with Cameron's actions to reign in loopholes and tax avoidance but the most efficient means to curb it altogether is to lower taxation below the level at which normal people are incentivised to invest in avoidance.
I also strongly agree with his policy of deleveraging the investment residential property market. Homes are for living in not for excess investment and speculation. There are plenty of other markets for that capital that don't directly impact the cost of living for the poorest. Interestingly, the new stamp duty tax increases on multiple properties and the highest end of the market do appear to have curbed that activity along with the warehousing of overseas wealth quite well. Again, let that massive overseas wealth invest in other U.K. Assets as opposed to unwittingly inflating property costs for all in the U.K.
I'd also link consumer credit facilities directly to individual's ability to repay as before. Done in a way to not impact those who are using consumer credit prudently but to halt those who are not.
Fundamentally, deleveraging both the consumer debt market and the residential property market would reduce the social divide as it has been the releasing of debt restrictions on these two markets which have been the cause of getting us to where we are now. Not immigrants, not fat cats, not the feckless or the chinless just lending regulations that have been too lax for too long.
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
edit - spelling
Edited by SystemParanoia on Tuesday 25th October 08:32
Alex said:
So what do you propose? Tax the rich? Restrict start-ups so there won't be another Microsoft or Facebook or Google? Any attempt to reduce "inequality" will make everyone poorer.
Will it?Better schooling in the state sector doesn't make everyone poorer.
Planning reform to stop the ludicrous inflation in house prices wont make everyone poorer.
Better infrastructure throughout the country to create a more balanced economy wont make everyone poorer.
and I could go on.
We are where we are due to deliberate policy decisions.
JagLover said:
Will it?
Better schooling in the state sector doesn't make everyone poorer.
Planning reform to stop the ludicrous inflation in house prices wont make everyone poorer.
Better infrastructure throughout the country to create a more balanced economy wont make everyone poorer.
and I could go on.
We are where we are due to deliberate policy decisions.
Yes, the country could be a utopia if only those scoundrels in government weren't holding us back. Better schooling in the state sector doesn't make everyone poorer.
Planning reform to stop the ludicrous inflation in house prices wont make everyone poorer.
Better infrastructure throughout the country to create a more balanced economy wont make everyone poorer.
and I could go on.
We are where we are due to deliberate policy decisions.
OwenK said:
Yes, the country could be a utopia if only those scoundrels in government weren't holding us back.
Did I say it is only due to the current government?, or even only politicians?The first Town & Country planning act was in 1947. These are trends that far predate 2010.
The last full length runway built in the south-east was built under emergency wartime powers. That rather puts things in perspective I feel.
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