The reality of life for many MANY people.
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
We can see a slightly clearer example of this reflected in house prices as the gap between each progressive property type widens then people stretch themselves further and further to make the next jump up to the point that they are almost destitute in terms of spare income capacity. And when the gap gets too wide to bridge with debt then the market simply begins to fail.
Interesting point you make about house prices. In 1972 my parents bought their first house for £2,600 and had a 5% deposit. It needed a bit of work, but it's what they could afford - Mother was an NQT (but about to go off on maternity) and Father worked for Uniroyal (nothing flash). At the time, it was the going rate for a house in that condition in that area (Flixton in Manchester) and was affordable for a first time buyer.44 years later, and naturally house prices have risen - the very house I grew up in sold 4 months ago for £289,000. It hadn't been extended, there was no swimming pool, the area is still very much the same (Fortnum and Masons have not opened a branch), but it is certainly no longer affordable for the FTB.
So are people better off today?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry, I was aiming at personal taxation as opposed to corporate. At 20% corporate taxation we are already cheap and with all the added benefits of the UK on top inpersonally feel in this regard more than competitive with any tax Zone where labour is required. What to do about Name Plate holding companies is really a global solution but as many of the havens for those types of entities have a Union Flag in the corner of their flag then I can't see us in the Brexit environment rushing to attack them when they will be needed in the fight against Luxembourg. When I was writing the stuff above I was firmly thinking of income tax and then bringing of that into line with other taxes like VAT and CT into the 20% area where few people would bother with the hassle of avoidance and would also increase their spending. Despite the clamp down, avoidance is still a huge business and will remain so almost no one will ever naturally accept 50% taxation of their income. And many of the modern schemes mean this money leaves the UK now.
I wouldn't be surprised if Brexit leads to the removal of the excessive income taxation as no one really believes it raises more money and that it is mainly a tool to appease the voting majority and removing the facade is probably the quickest way to incentivise entrepreneurs to retain their ideas within the U.K. and to entice many others to migrate from higher taxation zones. We will need to compete against Luxembourg head on.
northwest monkey said:
So are people better off today?
I think that's the really big question. Personally, I think that those on the lowest rung are the best off they have ever been in history thanks to 1946, probably the year that put the Great in Great Britain. It doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement as there clearly is and we still have resolved the issue of the shortage of unskilled labour in the post Industrial Age or the issue of having to import labour to try and even out the demographic problem but that labour being more competitive, by its nature, than much of our domestic pool. But even with all its faults and the work left to do, on a global or even historic scale there isn't extreme poverty.
At the very top, I guess we need to consider that to be people earning a good few hundred thousand a year on a constant basis to genuinely be considered wealthy, I get the feeling that there are many more such people in the U.K. than twenty years ago. Most surveys seem to indicate there are around 200,000 such people in the U.K.
So, everyone else inbetween? I guess if we make the crude assumption that this group consists mostly of people/households earning £20,000-£200,000, so the group for whom the cost of housing whether it be renting or buying now accounts for a very significant element of their income spend but even worse, for many is their single, only store of wealth, well I'm of the personal opinion that this group is getting poorer and poorer and has been for a long time. A modest correction just in the value of a single asset class will overnight render most of this group negative net worth. Such has become the cost of securing a roof that the traditional engine room of the UK population is fully exposed to the cost and price of a single asset class and stripping themselves of wealth and wealth potential.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I suspect that smaller populations make for superior social cohesion and less individualism. Combine that with decades of superior educational system and family unit cohesion and maybe there are certain reasons why it works for them? In addition, the U.K. has cultural hearts all over the world where we can simply up sticks and arrrive at unlike almost any other country. We can bugger off much easier than any one else and more importantly as very outward people by nature we can do it far more easily.
I very much suspect that if you looked at the UK's highest earners by nationality rather than domecility(?) we would see that our largest and highest earners simply aren't in the U.K. Paying U.K. taxes.
Don't forget also, that all the real Vikingers left Skandanavia and came here and to other countries a thousand years ago leaving only the fat, stupid, lazy and old back home. Which probably helps explain why 500 years later we were just so good at piracy and empire building and why we still think nothing of jumping on a boat and going and bettering our lot.
DonkeyApple said:
Those tend to be melodramatic arguments from left/right media to be honest.
First you need to establish if the divide in the UK is at the point of doing critical social damage and then, once you've deleted the anamolous super rich who are here for tax and lifestyle purposes, see what the true divide is etc.
In terms of action to take, raising taxes on the rich just makes everyone poorer. If anything taxation should be lowered for the very wealthy and the extra tax then raised used to further remove people at the bottom from taxation.
I actually tend to agree with Cameron's actions to reign in loopholes and tax avoidance but the most efficient means to curb it altogether is to lower taxation below the level at which normal people are incentivised to invest in avoidance.
I also strongly agree with his policy of deleveraging the investment residential property market. Homes are for living in not for excess investment and speculation. There are plenty of other markets for that capital that don't directly impact the cost of living for the poorest. Interestingly, the new stamp duty tax increases on multiple properties and the highest end of the market do appear to have curbed that activity along with the warehousing of overseas wealth quite well. Again, let that massive overseas wealth invest in other U.K. Assets as opposed to unwittingly inflating property costs for all in the U.K.
I'd also link consumer credit facilities directly to individual's ability to repay as before. Done in a way to not impact those who are using consumer credit prudently but to halt those who are not.
Fundamentally, deleveraging both the consumer debt market and the residential property market would reduce the social divide as it has been the releasing of debt restrictions on these two markets which have been the cause of getting us to where we are now. Not immigrants, not fat cats, not the feckless or the chinless just lending regulations that have been too lax for too long.
Good post. I agree with most of that, especially lowering taxation. Tax is the biggest drag on prosperity, productivity and wealth.First you need to establish if the divide in the UK is at the point of doing critical social damage and then, once you've deleted the anamolous super rich who are here for tax and lifestyle purposes, see what the true divide is etc.
In terms of action to take, raising taxes on the rich just makes everyone poorer. If anything taxation should be lowered for the very wealthy and the extra tax then raised used to further remove people at the bottom from taxation.
I actually tend to agree with Cameron's actions to reign in loopholes and tax avoidance but the most efficient means to curb it altogether is to lower taxation below the level at which normal people are incentivised to invest in avoidance.
I also strongly agree with his policy of deleveraging the investment residential property market. Homes are for living in not for excess investment and speculation. There are plenty of other markets for that capital that don't directly impact the cost of living for the poorest. Interestingly, the new stamp duty tax increases on multiple properties and the highest end of the market do appear to have curbed that activity along with the warehousing of overseas wealth quite well. Again, let that massive overseas wealth invest in other U.K. Assets as opposed to unwittingly inflating property costs for all in the U.K.
I'd also link consumer credit facilities directly to individual's ability to repay as before. Done in a way to not impact those who are using consumer credit prudently but to halt those who are not.
Fundamentally, deleveraging both the consumer debt market and the residential property market would reduce the social divide as it has been the releasing of debt restrictions on these two markets which have been the cause of getting us to where we are now. Not immigrants, not fat cats, not the feckless or the chinless just lending regulations that have been too lax for too long.
interesting reading through people's take on the economic variables and potential solutions to this issue.
Whilst I agree with much of it (and disagree with some[low tax = naturally better]), I think a social change is more important to give people the ability to work their way up from the bottom should they wish to.
Whilst I agree with much of it (and disagree with some[low tax = naturally better]), I think a social change is more important to give people the ability to work their way up from the bottom should they wish to.
matsoc said:
What strikes me more today is the lack of expertise and training young people actually get before turining 25. Many have not the tools to work their way up.
this x100000companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
The idea of better education leading to more social mobility/ more opportunity for those trying to claw themselves up the ladder is a positive idea, but I'm sceptical that the number of jobs or market openings actually exists, and will under the guise of increase automation, actually reduce.
So what then ?
Maybe new career opportunities will invent themselves, but I can't believe that will happen with the necessary volume to make a difference.
This is where I offer my solution, unfortunately, I don't have one.
So what then ?
Maybe new career opportunities will invent themselves, but I can't believe that will happen with the necessary volume to make a difference.
This is where I offer my solution, unfortunately, I don't have one.
BOR said:
The idea of better education leading to more social mobility/ more opportunity for those trying to claw themselves up the ladder is a positive idea, but I'm sceptical that the number of jobs or market openings actually exists, and will under the guise of increase automation, actually reduce.
So what then ?
Maybe new career opportunities will invent themselves, but I can't believe that will happen with the necessary volume to make a difference.
This is where I offer my solution, unfortunately, I don't have one.
This article gives one view to why that may not be true:So what then ?
Maybe new career opportunities will invent themselves, but I can't believe that will happen with the necessary volume to make a difference.
This is where I offer my solution, unfortunately, I don't have one.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/18/basic_inco...
Alex said:
BOR said:
The idea of better education leading to more social mobility/ more opportunity for those trying to claw themselves up the ladder is a positive idea, but I'm sceptical that the number of jobs or market openings actually exists, and will under the guise of increase automation, actually reduce.
So what then ?
Maybe new career opportunities will invent themselves, but I can't believe that will happen with the necessary volume to make a difference.
This is where I offer my solution, unfortunately, I don't have one.
This article gives one view to why that may not be true:So what then ?
Maybe new career opportunities will invent themselves, but I can't believe that will happen with the necessary volume to make a difference.
This is where I offer my solution, unfortunately, I don't have one.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/18/basic_inco...
There are still plenty of jobs out there not being filled. My wife is an employer and we(i help on admin+staffing) struggle immensely to find any decent staff for her company. If we had these staff we would be able to expand quite rapidly, but interview round after interview round just dregs up completely unsuitable candidates, for what should be a really easy role to do. It's events management. No experience required, in fact I prefer training people up when they have no experience, blank slate and all that. All I need is for them to be able to talk to people, not be weird, be able to drive and be generally fit & healthy. I just want normal people, but i'm not getting them. People are not applying for jobs.
Alex said:
They would apply if you upped the salary on offer.
Already well above the minimum & living wage at £10ph, for a very easy job with no qualifications/experience required.Basically they are helping customers around the locations, explaining simple things, and making teas/coffees. But it's a part time job, suitable for people wanting a second income really.
People just aren't applying, and those that do really don't have any clue of how to interview, speak to people or interact professionally.
I don't want to go in to too much detail, because it is already anecdotal enough, but these applicants really badly need education in just being professional.
Edited by Efbe on Tuesday 25th October 13:06
SystemParanoia said:
this x100000
companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
Alternatively, people think they know it all because they have a degree from Solent and are not willing to accept a lower level role.companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
Efbe said:
Already well above the minimum & living wage at £10ph, for a very easy job with no qualifications/experience required.
Basically they are helping customers around the locations, explaining simple things, and making teas/coffees. But it's a part time job, suitable for people wanting a second income really.
People just aren't applying, and those that do really don't have any clue of how to interview, speak to people or interact professionally.
I don't want to go in to too much detail, because it is already anecdotal enough, but these applicants really badly need education in just being professional.
The fact its part time and maybe the hours don't fit with other jobs probably wipes out a lot of people.Basically they are helping customers around the locations, explaining simple things, and making teas/coffees. But it's a part time job, suitable for people wanting a second income really.
People just aren't applying, and those that do really don't have any clue of how to interview, speak to people or interact professionally.
I don't want to go in to too much detail, because it is already anecdotal enough, but these applicants really badly need education in just being professional.
Edited by Efbe on Tuesday 25th October 13:06
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
. "Gleefully" whistle-blowing against "useless bosses" will rarely end well for you unless you are fully clued up on the interpersonal relationships with those higher up the ladder. In many cases the manager 2 rungs above you that you're whistle-blowing to will be the one that gave your manager the job and there's a high probability that it wasn't just his skill set that got him it.. Managers are often friends with each and socialise outside work which is unlikely to be something you are privy to if you're down at the coalface. Unsurprisingly, whistle-blowing more often than not results in one being in possession of one's P45 a short while later. All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
. "Gleefully" whistle-blowing against "useless bosses" will rarely end well for you unless you are fully clued up on the interpersonal relationships with those higher up the ladder. In many cases the manager 2 rungs above you that you're whistle-blowing to will be the one that gave your manager the job and there's a high probability that it wasn't just his skill set that got him it.. Managers are often friends with each and socialise outside work which is unlikely to be something you are privy to if you're down at the coalface. Unsurprisingly, whistle-blowing more often than not results in one being in possession of one's P45 a short while later. If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
. "Gleefully" whistle-blowing against "useless bosses" will rarely end well for you unless you are fully clued up on the interpersonal relationships with those higher up the ladder. In many cases the manager 2 rungs above you that you're whistle-blowing to will be the one that gave your manager the job and there's a high probability that it wasn't just his skill set that got him it.. Managers are often friends with each and socialise outside work which is unlikely to be something you are privy to if you're down at the coalface. Unsurprisingly, whistle-blowing more often than not results in one being in possession of one's P45 a short while later. If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
No wonder you havent gotten to where you want to be.
Bad mouthing your own company to a client? Jesus.
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