The reality of life for many MANY people.
Discussion
p1stonhead said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
. "Gleefully" whistle-blowing against "useless bosses" will rarely end well for you unless you are fully clued up on the interpersonal relationships with those higher up the ladder. In many cases the manager 2 rungs above you that you're whistle-blowing to will be the one that gave your manager the job and there's a high probability that it wasn't just his skill set that got him it.. Managers are often friends with each and socialise outside work which is unlikely to be something you are privy to if you're down at the coalface. Unsurprisingly, whistle-blowing more often than not results in one being in possession of one's P45 a short while later. If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
Bad mouthing your own company to a client? Jesus.
Its fair game on year 3 after playing the "yes sir" game and getting nowhere though.
and its generally done once one has secured employment elsewhere as one final "f
k you"no point doing it as a contractor though, you're not paid to care about that crap as there isnt a ladder to climb.
SystemParanoia said:
p1stonhead said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
. "Gleefully" whistle-blowing against "useless bosses" will rarely end well for you unless you are fully clued up on the interpersonal relationships with those higher up the ladder. In many cases the manager 2 rungs above you that you're whistle-blowing to will be the one that gave your manager the job and there's a high probability that it wasn't just his skill set that got him it.. Managers are often friends with each and socialise outside work which is unlikely to be something you are privy to if you're down at the coalface. Unsurprisingly, whistle-blowing more often than not results in one being in possession of one's P45 a short while later. If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
Bad mouthing your own company to a client? Jesus.
Its fair game on year 3 after playing the "yes sir" game and getting nowhere though.
and its generally done once one has secured employment elsewhere as one final "f
k you"no point doing it as a contractor though, you're not paid to care about that crap as there isnt a ladder to climb.
k you' though? Its ALWAYS the best thing to do to make sure you leave on the best terms possible.You frankly have no idea how the world of business works hence you being taken for a mug most likely.
You can try and do as much damage as you want, but it wont go remotely well for you. If I was a client and you called me telling me about something your company had done, I would be straight on the phone asking whats up, then telling someone higher up to sack you for being a snake - even if what they had done was wrong - you dont do that.
SystemParanoia said:
2 rungs isn't high enough usually. I like to let the board of directors or the ceo know what's happening once I've collected enough evidence... And if nothings happening after that.. the client is normally verry happy to be privvy to how their contract is being dealt with.
If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
Fair enough. You're entitled to do as you see fit.. but based on these recent relevations from you I don't think you're in a position to whine about other members (NinjaPower in particular) who have used their nous to better their lot by working smart. If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
p1stonhead said:
SystemParanoia said:
p1stonhead said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
. "Gleefully" whistle-blowing against "useless bosses" will rarely end well for you unless you are fully clued up on the interpersonal relationships with those higher up the ladder. In many cases the manager 2 rungs above you that you're whistle-blowing to will be the one that gave your manager the job and there's a high probability that it wasn't just his skill set that got him it.. Managers are often friends with each and socialise outside work which is unlikely to be something you are privy to if you're down at the coalface. Unsurprisingly, whistle-blowing more often than not results in one being in possession of one's P45 a short while later. If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
Bad mouthing your own company to a client? Jesus.
Its fair game on year 3 after playing the "yes sir" game and getting nowhere though.
and its generally done once one has secured employment elsewhere as one final "f
k you"no point doing it as a contractor though, you're not paid to care about that crap as there isnt a ladder to climb.
k you' though? Its ALWAYS the best thing to do to make sure you leave on the best terms possible.You frankly have no idea how the world of business works hence you being taken for a mug most likely.
You can try and do as much damage as you want, but it wont go remotely well for you. If I was a client and you called me telling me about something your company had done, I would be straight on the phone asking whats up, then telling someone higher up to sack you for being a snake - even if what they had done was wrong - you dont do that.
and spoofing the ID of someone else within the company is usually trivial as they generally have rubbish internal security ( i.e no HTTPS on the web portal logins which 99.9% of the time match their domain login )
one company had the wifi on the same network as the corporate network separated only by a subnet ffs, i had all the managers login credentials within minutes using wireshark on my phone.
All that jazz said:
Fair enough. You're entitled to do as you see fit.. but based on these recent relevations from you I don't think you're in a position to whine about other members (NinjaPower in particular) who have used their nous to better their lot by working smart.
Not really, he snitches on colleagues, rims the managers and generally feels like stepping on anyone to get a leg up is the way to go forgetting he'll meet them on the way back downI support and work with my colleagues and hold managers to account wherever i can, whenever i can; but only as soon as i realise im not getting anywhere with playing their stupid games. I keep the moral high ground.
One lot of manager i held to account basically ripped the client off to the sum of over £1mil in SLA breaches. the clients were EXTREMELY happy to find this out.
Edited by SystemParanoia on Tuesday 25th October 15:03
SystemParanoia said:
p1stonhead said:
SystemParanoia said:
p1stonhead said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
SystemParanoia said:
okgo said:
Point 1 - Bolt runs fast as he is genetically gifted, others cannot because they are not. Nearly anyone can 'make it' whatever that is. Those people in your company arguably are smart as they have realised what it takes to get somewhere, i.e., its not what you know, rather who you know. Work smart not hard and all that.
Brilliant. so if i work hard enough i can have a well connected family that can parachute me into an executive position no matter how pathetically useless i am.thanks, ill remember that... my hard work will change my family into well connected snobs. nice
Due to past experience I refuse to acknowledge unreasonable requests ( like keeping company phone on 24/7 for calls/emails and prioritise work over family ), or will gleefully whistle blow against useless bosses ( with full associated email trail ), or install a glass ceiling for myself some other way through doing the right thing for the company but in doing so upset the petty manager above me.
I well aware of how I am and what I do. But I refuse to take crap. Did it for years and it got me nowhere.
my first thought relating to permie work is "me first"
my first thought relating to contract work is "is this clearly defined within my contract?"
. "Gleefully" whistle-blowing against "useless bosses" will rarely end well for you unless you are fully clued up on the interpersonal relationships with those higher up the ladder. In many cases the manager 2 rungs above you that you're whistle-blowing to will be the one that gave your manager the job and there's a high probability that it wasn't just his skill set that got him it.. Managers are often friends with each and socialise outside work which is unlikely to be something you are privy to if you're down at the coalface. Unsurprisingly, whistle-blowing more often than not results in one being in possession of one's P45 a short while later. If I'm going to go... Scorched earth behind me.
Bad mouthing your own company to a client? Jesus.
Its fair game on year 3 after playing the "yes sir" game and getting nowhere though.
and its generally done once one has secured employment elsewhere as one final "f
k you"no point doing it as a contractor though, you're not paid to care about that crap as there isnt a ladder to climb.
k you' though? Its ALWAYS the best thing to do to make sure you leave on the best terms possible.You frankly have no idea how the world of business works hence you being taken for a mug most likely.
You can try and do as much damage as you want, but it wont go remotely well for you. If I was a client and you called me telling me about something your company had done, I would be straight on the phone asking whats up, then telling someone higher up to sack you for being a snake - even if what they had done was wrong - you dont do that.
and spoofing the ID of someone else within the company is usually trivial as they generally have rubbish internal security ( i.e no HTTPS on the web portal logins which 99.9% of the time match their domain login )
one company had the wifi on the same network as the corporate network separated only by a subnet ffs, i had all the managers login credentials within minutes using wireshark on my phone.
ker who no one would want to work with! 
SystemParanoia said:
Why would i tell them exactly who i am ?
and spoofing the ID of someone else within the company is usually trivial as they generally have rubbish internal security ( i.e no HTTPS on the web portal logins which 99.9% of the time match their domain login )
one company had the wifi on the same network as the corporate network separated only by a subnet ffs, i had all the managers login credentials within minutes using wireshark on my phone.
Oh dear! and spoofing the ID of someone else within the company is usually trivial as they generally have rubbish internal security ( i.e no HTTPS on the web portal logins which 99.9% of the time match their domain login )
one company had the wifi on the same network as the corporate network separated only by a subnet ffs, i had all the managers login credentials within minutes using wireshark on my phone.
OK, hands up who would employ SystemParanoia?
SystemParanoia said:
All that jazz said:
Fair enough. You're entitled to do as you see fit.. but based on these recent relevations from you I don't think you're in a position to whine about other members (NinjaPower in particular) who have used their nous to better their lot by working smart.
Not really, he snitches on colleagues, rims the managers and generally feels like stepping on anyone to get a leg up is the way to go forgetting he'll meet them on the way back downI support and work with my colleagues and hold managers to account wherever i can, whenever i can; but only as soon as i realise im not getting anywhere with playing their stupid games. I keep the moral high ground.
One lot of manager i held to account basically ripped the client off to the sum of over £1mil in SLA breaches. the clients were EXTREMELY happy to find this out.
. There's been a lot of good advice posted on this thread although you probably think it's a load of old guff and you know better. I strongly suspect in time you will remember this thread and come to realise the advice given wasn't as bonkers as you first thought. You can lead a horse to water.... SystemParanoia said:
this x100000
companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
We have taken on two apprentices (business administration) with the idea to train them up over the year long course and then continue to train and develop them after this, whilst they continued in our employ. However, it was actually quite sad, neither had any actual back bone despite appearing confident in their interviews. companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
We found one in our kitchen area crying because we had asked him to answer the telephone and the other wasn't prepared to even make the tea and coffees even though the rest of the team had already made their share earlier in the day. Needless to say neither managed to see the end of the first week.
Unfortunately, from our experience the kids (technically adults as they were both 19) these days have no work ethic or desire to actually succeed. They have been pampered and indulged by their parents and do not understand how life actually works. I fear for this young generation.
At 19, I certainly wasn't not afraid to get stuck in and give things a go.
MWM3 said:
SystemParanoia said:
this x100000
companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
We have taken on two apprentices (business administration) with the idea to train them up over the year long course and then continue to train and develop them after this, whilst they continued in our employ. However, it was actually quite sad, neither had any actual back bone despite appearing confident in their interviews. companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
We found one in our kitchen area crying because we had asked him to answer the telephone and the other wasn't prepared to even make the tea and coffees even though the rest of the team had already made their share earlier in the day. Needless to say neither managed to see the end of the first week.
Unfortunately, from our experience the kids (technically adults as they were both 19) these days have no work ethic or desire to actually succeed. They have been pampered and indulged by their parents and do not understand how life actually works. I fear for this young generation.
At 19, I certainly wasn't not afraid to get stuck in and give things a go.
And now youce been bitten you're less likely to do it again, or if you do you'll probbably want more in the way of experience and not take on a total greenhorn.
I hope you keep doing it though as it would be a shame for a genuine oportunity for someone to get ahead; to end up dissapearing into the ether due to you having an endless procession of useless workshy
s 
MWM3 said:
Unfortunately, from our experience the kids (technically adults as they were both 19) these days have no work ethic or desire to actually succeed. They have been pampered and indulged by their parents and do not understand how life actually works. I fear for this young generation.
You got the wrong kids, that's all.We've had numerous work experience students and, in recent years, most have been extremely good - happy, willing and capable of working in most, if not all areas of the business. Some of them have even answered the phones.
We also have two full-time engineering apprentices in our workshops, one learning the ropes on CNC machine tools and the other learning to be a welder-fabricator. They are both mentored by the respective heads of the departments they are in, who are both time-served and highly experienced. Both students are exemplary (with excellent reports from college too) and are capable of doing real work and are paid above apprentice rate as a result.
SystemParanoia said:
this x100000
companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
It doesn't help that so many leaving school can hardly write a letter, add up, or hold a mature discussion. Employers find that they have to spend far too long attempting a more mature approach from those who don't seem to have the slightest idea what work actually entails - and don't get me started on graduates who think they're god's gift.....companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
Robertj21a said:
SystemParanoia said:
this x100000
companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
It doesn't help that so many leaving school can hardly write a letter, add up, or hold a mature discussion. Employers find that they have to spend far too long attempting a more mature approach from those who don't seem to have the slightest idea what work actually entails - and don't get me started on graduates who think they're god's gift.....companies aren't interested in training staff.. they just want them already trained with several years experience to boot.
leaving the poor young person in a chicken and egg situation
SystemParanoia said:
one company had the wifi on the same network as the corporate network separated only by a subnet ffs, i had all the managers login credentials within minutes using wireshark on my phone.
You have almost certainly just admitted committing a crime. Most companies have an acceptable use policy regarding IT systems. Running wireshark (even on your own phone) on their network is going to be in breach of that policy.Yes, it's extremely stupid of people to do what you've described. But slurping password data then blabbing about it on an internet forum is only going to get you visited by the BIB, not congratulated and promoted.
Here is one of those cases where you quietly, gently, find the network administrator and gently discuss what you are doing without admitting you're doing it. (S)He's more likely to listen if you suggest it rather than ramming it in their face like a know-it-all. That means using tact, politeness, you know..... personal skills
Work smarter, not harder
??Digga said:
ou got the wrong kids, that's all.
I do get that, however these two were the best of a quite large pool of applicants put forward. We would love to support the development of a youngster and we obviously expect that they would know the square root of nothing in terms of the business side of things but we need/expect them to have some very basic life skills, such as having the courtesy to make drinks, when your new colleagues have already made you several throughout the day and the ability to answer a phone without (ironically) phoning mummy in a panic.
SystemParanoia said:
Yoce got to shift alot of muck before you find that diamond. Hopefully you keep digging. ( graduates may not be the answer either )
An employer shouldn't have to shift a lot of muck, an interested recruit should come much better equipped than the pathetic offerings nowadays.gavsdavs said:
SystemParanoia said:
one company had the wifi on the same network as the corporate network separated only by a subnet ffs, i had all the managers login credentials within minutes using wireshark on my phone.
You have almost certainly just admitted committing a crime. Most companies have an acceptable use policy regarding IT systems. Running wireshark (even on your own phone) on their network is going to be in breach of that policy.Yes, it's extremely stupid of people to do what you've described. But slurping password data then blabbing about it on an internet forum is only going to get you visited by the BIB, not congratulated and promoted.
Here is one of those cases where you quietly, gently, find the network administrator and gently discuss what you are doing without admitting you're doing it. (S)He's more likely to listen if you suggest it rather than ramming it in their face like a know-it-all. That means using tact, politeness, you know..... personal skills
Work smarter, not harder
??I could have tried speak to the I.T people, but shibboleth didnt work
and I got bored speaking to 1st line supportRobertj21a said:
SystemParanoia said:
Yoce got to shift alot of muck before you find that diamond. Hopefully you keep digging. ( graduates may not be the answer either )
An employer shouldn't have to shift a lot of muck, an interested recruit should come much better equipped than the pathetic offerings nowadays.it would be a potentially expensive long-game way of doing it, and alot of pupils will run off and join the competition. but someones got to do something... haven't they ?
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