Estate Agent Complaint
Discussion
I'll cut a very long story short. We found a really nice property - a newly converted barn, lovely countryside views, in rural(ish) Cambridgeshire. Only minor drawback was that it was located down a fairly long drive directly off the main A428 between St Neots and Caxton Gibbet.
Whilst there was some road noise evident in the garden, the entire barn faced away from the road, was silent inside, and we had plans to build a large enough car port / garage / annexe to further block noise, plus there was some new hedging planted already which needed time to grow. In short, there was a small small issue with noise, but it wasn't going to get worse and was actually going to be practically eliminated. We factored this into the offer price, and to be fair the developer / vendor had also factored it into their selling price - I think we'd both agree if it was in the middle of a nice village or on a different road, it would have been worth about 20% more.
Offer was accepted, we instructed solicitors, paid mortgage brokers, valuation fees etc. A week or so before exchanging, whilst looking at something unconnected, we discovered that major plans were at quite an advanced stage to 'upgrade' the A428 between the Black Cat roundabout and Caxton Gibbet - as its the only piece of road between Milton Keynes and Cambridge yet to be dual carriageway. We even found a couple of maps showing a 'likely' route - and, you've guessed it, the new dual carriageway is quite likely to pass behind the barn (across the lovely open views) thus potentially ruining the outlook and seriously devaluing the property.
As far as the project goes, I'm well aware that road upgrades often get to a certain point then die a death. They don't get done. Political landscape changes, priorities change etc. However, in this instance, there is budget agreed, a Highways Agency website dealing with it, and public consultation starts in early 2017, with building earmarked for 2020. Ergo it is going to happen, it is just a matter of how and exactly where.
Needless to say we had no choice but to withdraw our offer - we were prepared to work with the minor noise from the existing road, but were not prepared for the 'unknown' of a much larger and busier dual carriageway potentially outside the back door!
The route of the upgraded road is not finalised, and the matter not yet open to public consultation, therefore it does not yet appear on public searches so the conveyancing solicitor is blameless here. However, under the new and improved rules which Estate Agents must adhere to, I believe that proposed major changes to the road on which a property is situated MUST constitute 'material information' and must therefore be disclosed to potential purchasers.
I read through this:
http://www.nfopp-regulation.co.uk/media/1043356/nt...
And was struck by this:
"In the most straightforward property sales, the material information that you should give to consumers may be quite basic (the asking price, location, number and size of rooms, and whether the property is freehold or leasehold). However, depending on the circumstances of each sale, material facts could include the length of the lease, the level of charges payable under a lease, known ambiguities concerning title, significant issues or occurrences at the property, major structural defects, status of connection to mains services/utilities; as well as things which could have an impact on the property such as potential developments, planning issues, highways issues, conservation areas, etc. This information should be provided as early in the marketing process as possible and not left until a potential buyer expresses an interest in a property."
I've made a formal complain to the Estate Agent, but their reply was non-committal. They focused on the fact that no clear route had been agreed so there was no issue yet - and didn't concede that ANY change to the A428 would have an impact on the property. No admissions were made, no responsibility taken, and basically said:
"Whilst we accept that we do have an obligation not ‘to mislead consumers by failing to give them information they need to make an informed decision’ we do not believe that this obligation extends to providing buyers with details of every single possible series of options that may or may not happen in the years ahead."
They've offered a reasonable sum as an offer to settle - but as a gesture of goodwill, not as an acceptance of fault. The sum doesn't cover our outlay, but I'm more angry that they didn't just hold their hand up and say "Sorry, we probably should have said something..."
I can take this to the Property Ombudsman (and a big part of me wants to) - but I wondered if anyone had any experience (from either side) about this sort of estate agent complaint, and can offer input as to whether the particular circumstances above would (or would not) fall under 'material information'...
They are re-marketing the property with no change to the particulars aside from some additional photos, and my guess is they plan to withhold this information from other prospective buyers too.
When we questioned the developer, he said "I'm surprised you didn't know about this..." so for the Estate Agent to duck responsibility just seems plain wrong.
What would you do... take the Estate Agent's money? Push for an apology? Go to the Ombudsman?
Whilst there was some road noise evident in the garden, the entire barn faced away from the road, was silent inside, and we had plans to build a large enough car port / garage / annexe to further block noise, plus there was some new hedging planted already which needed time to grow. In short, there was a small small issue with noise, but it wasn't going to get worse and was actually going to be practically eliminated. We factored this into the offer price, and to be fair the developer / vendor had also factored it into their selling price - I think we'd both agree if it was in the middle of a nice village or on a different road, it would have been worth about 20% more.
Offer was accepted, we instructed solicitors, paid mortgage brokers, valuation fees etc. A week or so before exchanging, whilst looking at something unconnected, we discovered that major plans were at quite an advanced stage to 'upgrade' the A428 between the Black Cat roundabout and Caxton Gibbet - as its the only piece of road between Milton Keynes and Cambridge yet to be dual carriageway. We even found a couple of maps showing a 'likely' route - and, you've guessed it, the new dual carriageway is quite likely to pass behind the barn (across the lovely open views) thus potentially ruining the outlook and seriously devaluing the property.
As far as the project goes, I'm well aware that road upgrades often get to a certain point then die a death. They don't get done. Political landscape changes, priorities change etc. However, in this instance, there is budget agreed, a Highways Agency website dealing with it, and public consultation starts in early 2017, with building earmarked for 2020. Ergo it is going to happen, it is just a matter of how and exactly where.
Needless to say we had no choice but to withdraw our offer - we were prepared to work with the minor noise from the existing road, but were not prepared for the 'unknown' of a much larger and busier dual carriageway potentially outside the back door!
The route of the upgraded road is not finalised, and the matter not yet open to public consultation, therefore it does not yet appear on public searches so the conveyancing solicitor is blameless here. However, under the new and improved rules which Estate Agents must adhere to, I believe that proposed major changes to the road on which a property is situated MUST constitute 'material information' and must therefore be disclosed to potential purchasers.
I read through this:
http://www.nfopp-regulation.co.uk/media/1043356/nt...
And was struck by this:
"In the most straightforward property sales, the material information that you should give to consumers may be quite basic (the asking price, location, number and size of rooms, and whether the property is freehold or leasehold). However, depending on the circumstances of each sale, material facts could include the length of the lease, the level of charges payable under a lease, known ambiguities concerning title, significant issues or occurrences at the property, major structural defects, status of connection to mains services/utilities; as well as things which could have an impact on the property such as potential developments, planning issues, highways issues, conservation areas, etc. This information should be provided as early in the marketing process as possible and not left until a potential buyer expresses an interest in a property."
I've made a formal complain to the Estate Agent, but their reply was non-committal. They focused on the fact that no clear route had been agreed so there was no issue yet - and didn't concede that ANY change to the A428 would have an impact on the property. No admissions were made, no responsibility taken, and basically said:
"Whilst we accept that we do have an obligation not ‘to mislead consumers by failing to give them information they need to make an informed decision’ we do not believe that this obligation extends to providing buyers with details of every single possible series of options that may or may not happen in the years ahead."
They've offered a reasonable sum as an offer to settle - but as a gesture of goodwill, not as an acceptance of fault. The sum doesn't cover our outlay, but I'm more angry that they didn't just hold their hand up and say "Sorry, we probably should have said something..."
I can take this to the Property Ombudsman (and a big part of me wants to) - but I wondered if anyone had any experience (from either side) about this sort of estate agent complaint, and can offer input as to whether the particular circumstances above would (or would not) fall under 'material information'...
They are re-marketing the property with no change to the particulars aside from some additional photos, and my guess is they plan to withhold this information from other prospective buyers too.
When we questioned the developer, he said "I'm surprised you didn't know about this..." so for the Estate Agent to duck responsibility just seems plain wrong.
What would you do... take the Estate Agent's money? Push for an apology? Go to the Ombudsman?
digimeistter said:
Hardly the Agent's fault, do you expect them to do extensive research on proposed / possible developments on every property?
Your truck should be with your solicitor as this would undoubtedly have shown up on the local search.
This, with bells on.Your truck should be with your solicitor as this would undoubtedly have shown up on the local search.
The EA is paid by the seller to find a buyer.
As a buyer, the EA is not your friend in any way, shape or form.
Your solicitor is paid by you to protect your interests and ensure what you are buying is what you think you're buying.
Yes, I'd take the money and move on. There are so many proposed schemes, routes etc. that for the Agent to highlight everything would be just as meaningless - you'd have dozed off before they had mentioned everything. For example, were you aware of the houses to be built on Bourn Airfield (possibly, maybe)? Or the new bus route from Cambourne?
digimeistter said:
Hardly the Agent's fault, do you expect them to do extensive research on proposed / possible developments on every property?
Your truck should be with your solicitor as this would undoubtedly have shown up on the local search.
Actually yes - that is their job. Your truck should be with your solicitor as this would undoubtedly have shown up on the local search.
From the same document:
"4.10 There is a requirement on you to make reasonable checks in order to find out if any material information exists. For example, this may include the existence of any planning or conservation issues which directly affect the property."
That the road project is going ahead is a matter of public record. When we spoke on the phone afterwards, they admitted they knew about it, but were more focussed on a larger project also in the area (upgrade of the A14) for which the digging started late last month.
It is big news in the local area.
It echoes another case at the Ombudsman:
"In another case study, buyers withdrew because of a major local development of 1,200 houses on what would have been their doorstep in the draft local plan. They found out about it only after watching a local news programme.
The agent had not told them about this, even though the draft local plan had been made public months beforehand.
The agent contested that the buyers had never asked about any proposed local developments.
The ombudsman said that the size of the development proposed was material information which should have been disclosed, and given its public nature, he did “not consider any claim of ignorance on the agents’ part was reasonable in the circumstances”."
Flooble said:
Yes, I'd take the money and move on. There are so many proposed schemes, routes etc. that for the Agent to highlight everything would be just as meaningless - you'd have dozed off before they had mentioned everything. For example, were you aware of the houses to be built on Bourn Airfield (possibly, maybe)? Or the new bus route from Cambourne?
There's trivial things, and there's important things...FrankAbagnale said:
I'd be interested to see how this plays out but am very surprised the agent offered up any compensation, even if it was no actual admission of liability.
Me too. When I said move on, I had not realised money was offered. As it has, I would bite their arm off and then move on
Interestingly, an advert with an online agent has appeared on Rightmove for a house today stating that "Largest garden in Central Town Conservation area @ 1650m2".
That statement on the advert of the property is 100% incorrect. I did wonder if there could be any comeback on the online agent who advertises, or the vendor who wrote the description.
That statement on the advert of the property is 100% incorrect. I did wonder if there could be any comeback on the online agent who advertises, or the vendor who wrote the description.
FrankAbagnale said:
Got a map of the house/road?
1200 houses on the doorstep and a proposed road that spoils a view could be very different things.
I'd be interested to see how this plays out but am very surprised the agent offered up any compensation, even if it was no actual admission of liability.
The 1200 houses is a different case I found when looking at ombudsman responses...1200 houses on the doorstep and a proposed road that spoils a view could be very different things.
I'd be interested to see how this plays out but am very surprised the agent offered up any compensation, even if it was no actual admission of liability.
Background: http://roads.highways.gov.uk/projects/a428-black-c...
Interesting news article (2014) including a 'suggestion' for the route: http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/long_term_transpor...
OS Map showing house location: https://binged.it/2eucrkz
Useful to see that the road has little chance of routing south of the existing A428 unless they want to demolish a moated settlement, ancient woodland and a whole bunch of other stuff, suggesting the map in the news article is actually reasonably likely...
timetex said:
FrankAbagnale said:
Got a map of the house/road?
1200 houses on the doorstep and a proposed road that spoils a view could be very different things.
I'd be interested to see how this plays out but am very surprised the agent offered up any compensation, even if it was no actual admission of liability.
The 1200 houses is a different case I found when looking at ombudsman responses...1200 houses on the doorstep and a proposed road that spoils a view could be very different things.
I'd be interested to see how this plays out but am very surprised the agent offered up any compensation, even if it was no actual admission of liability.
Background: http://roads.highways.gov.uk/projects/a428-black-c...
Interesting news article (2014) including a 'suggestion' for the route: http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/long_term_transpor...
OS Map showing house location: https://binged.it/2eucrkz
Useful to see that the road has little chance of routing south of the existing A428 unless they want to demolish a moated settlement, ancient woodland and a whole bunch of other stuff, suggesting the map in the news article is actually reasonably likely...
It seems like that map screenshot from the huntspost is taken from an official document of sorts. Possibly from the "transport group"?
My initial thoughts, based on the information in those links only, is that the project is at a very very early stage and the new road specifically has only been proposed by a transport group (usually local residents/councillors who hold no real power?) that it holds next to no weight at this current time. Of course that could change.
If there is no document carrying serious weight from a recognised body that is seriously putting that route forward I don't think the agent has done much wrong.
If agents had to make buyers aware of projects suggested by local councils/steering groups/transport groups 6-12 months before there is even a consultation of all proposed options, 18-24 months before a preferred option is put forward and 24-30 months before consultation on the preferred route is opened I hate to think of the legal minefield that would open up.
Am I right in reading the house sits on an the south of the A428 and the proposed new road is being built circa 400m north of the A428? Terrible diagram below...
All that said, this is a grey area for agents and I would genuinely be very interested to see how this plays out.
BlueHave said:
I'd be amazed if the agent didn't know about it.
Is there anything honest about estate agents these days.
In my opinion they are deserving of the shifty, wide boy reputation.
It's full of conflicts this one. If there is a negative factual information that's what searches are for. The proposed scheme is not factual, it's route is not even known. The agent acts for the vendor, not the purchaser... there is really no straightforward answer, unless they can persuade the client to perhaps pre-agree what they are to say.... but that may make the property unsaleable in the short term.Is there anything honest about estate agents these days.
In my opinion they are deserving of the shifty, wide boy reputation.
surveyor said:
It's full of conflicts this one. If there is a negative factual information that's what searches are for. The proposed scheme is not factual, it's route is not even known. The agent acts for the vendor, not the purchaser... there is really no straightforward answer, unless they can persuade the client to perhaps pre-agree what they are to say.... but that may make the property unsaleable in the short term.
Whilst the route isn't known, the fact that the project is going ahead isn't open to question. The agents are just being blasé about it.Whilst the road itself might not see the light of day until at least 2020, the property would devalue as soon as next year - i.e. as soon as the proposed route is published (assuming of course that the proposed route does negatively impact the property).
But that's for the buyer to know and understand, not for the estate agent to fail to disclose...
timetex said:
surveyor said:
It's full of conflicts this one. If there is a negative factual information that's what searches are for. The proposed scheme is not factual, it's route is not even known. The agent acts for the vendor, not the purchaser... there is really no straightforward answer, unless they can persuade the client to perhaps pre-agree what they are to say.... but that may make the property unsaleable in the short term.
Whilst the route isn't known, the fact that the project is going ahead isn't open to question. The agents are just being blasé about it.Whilst the road itself might not see the light of day until at least 2020, the property would devalue as soon as next year - i.e. as soon as the proposed route is published (assuming of course that the proposed route does negatively impact the property).
But that's for the buyer to know and understand, not for the estate agent to fail to disclose...
timetex said:
surveyor said:
It's full of conflicts this one. If there is a negative factual information that's what searches are for. The proposed scheme is not factual, it's route is not even known. The agent acts for the vendor, not the purchaser... there is really no straightforward answer, unless they can persuade the client to perhaps pre-agree what they are to say.... but that may make the property unsaleable in the short term.
Whilst the route isn't known, the fact that the project is going ahead isn't open to question. The agents are just being blasé about it.Whilst the road itself might not see the light of day until at least 2020, the property would devalue as soon as next year - i.e. as soon as the proposed route is published (assuming of course that the proposed route does negatively impact the property).
But that's for the buyer to know and understand, not for the estate agent to fail to disclose...
Not saying your wrong, but equally the seller paying his fees would be less than happy if he was telling everyone that a road might or might not be going behind..,
FrankAbagnale said:
Can you point me to the official documentation that shows that new road as a suggested route that is being considered? I'd imagine this to be a highways England document or something similar.
It seems like that map screenshot from the huntspost is taken from an official document of sorts. Possibly from the "transport group"?
My initial thoughts, based on the information in those links only, is that the project is at a very very early stage and the new road specifically has only been proposed by a transport group (usually local residents/councillors who hold no real power?) that it holds next to no weight at this current time. Of course that could change.
If there is no document carrying serious weight from a recognised body that is seriously putting that route forward I don't think the agent has done much wrong.
If agents had to make buyers aware of projects suggested by local councils/steering groups/transport groups 6-12 months before there is even a consultation of all proposed options, 18-24 months before a preferred option is put forward and 24-30 months before consultation on the preferred route is opened I hate to think of the legal minefield that would open up.
Am I right in reading the house sits on an the south of the A428 and the proposed new road is being built circa 400m north of the A428? Terrible diagram below...
All that said, this is a grey area for agents and I would genuinely be very interested to see how this plays out.
No official documentation, although we've found different versions of that map (2 in total) in other semi-official documents. The road has full funding and was announced in the Chancellor's autumn statement in 2014 as part of a raft of measures for this part of the world. After long delays, the A14 is finally being upgraded although plans have been kicked around for upgrades to the A1 from Baldock to Alconbury too, those are definitely a pipe dream at the moment. It seems like that map screenshot from the huntspost is taken from an official document of sorts. Possibly from the "transport group"?
My initial thoughts, based on the information in those links only, is that the project is at a very very early stage and the new road specifically has only been proposed by a transport group (usually local residents/councillors who hold no real power?) that it holds next to no weight at this current time. Of course that could change.
If there is no document carrying serious weight from a recognised body that is seriously putting that route forward I don't think the agent has done much wrong.
If agents had to make buyers aware of projects suggested by local councils/steering groups/transport groups 6-12 months before there is even a consultation of all proposed options, 18-24 months before a preferred option is put forward and 24-30 months before consultation on the preferred route is opened I hate to think of the legal minefield that would open up.
Am I right in reading the house sits on an the south of the A428 and the proposed new road is being built circa 400m north of the A428? Terrible diagram below...
All that said, this is a grey area for agents and I would genuinely be very interested to see how this plays out.
The house actually sits on the NORTH side of the current A428 - if you look along from the dot positioned by postcode, it is a building which forms the northernmost part of North Farm, and is being marketed as 'North Farm Barn'. In truth its a lovely (to me) building and I'm gutted we had to pull out, but emotions aside it is too big a gamble without knowing where that road will go.
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