The English language is stupid.
Discussion
I had a similar experience in an ice cream shop in Rome. They had a limited range of products so it was pretty obvious I was after something they had, but my pathetic accent met with a blank stare.
Same in America with "tomato". "Beg your pardon?" Come on, it's not that difficult and we accept your pronunciation if you visit us!
Same in America with "tomato". "Beg your pardon?" Come on, it's not that difficult and we accept your pronunciation if you visit us!
wsurfa said:
I work with people all over the world (50+ countries), and the common view from them is that English is probably the easiest language to get to the stage where people understand you. However that lack of strict rules makes it very hard to perfect.
For example 'Pub I go', 'I go pub', 'Go I pub', 'Us pub' 'Pub us' etc would most likely all be understood, but the lots of the phrases above would be a nightmare
I think that might be for two reasons for this particular example.For example 'Pub I go', 'I go pub', 'Go I pub', 'Us pub' 'Pub us' etc would most likely all be understood, but the lots of the phrases above would be a nightmare
1) Lots of non english speakers around the world learn at least a bit of english somewhere. TV/films/radio, school, wherever.
2) The default thought in life is "Lets go to the pub" so anything that sounds like it is instantly recognisable as this intention.
3) The noun itself is the shortest sentence in the english language - I'm sure it's officially "I am" but which brit would not understand the following - "Pub?"
I had had a similar thing in France. I'm reasonably fluent in French but obviously speak it with an accent and find unless I pronounce perfectly or get the sentence structure absolutely correct I'm sometimes misunderstood. For example, I was in a bar last year and asked for "doo ver do van blank do mayzon" (sic) in my best frenglish accent, to which the waitresses response was a "que" and a shrug, I asked again, the same response. After the forth time I gave up and said "two glasses of white wine" please in English and she understood perfectly.
I don't know if she was being awkward about my pronunciation or if it really is that bad (although I spend 2 or 3 months a year in France usually get by pretty well), but I'm pretty sure that no matter how strong an accent someone had when ordering drinks in the UK then they would be understood. Is is just that we are more flexible with our language here so can make sense of mangled sentences or pronunciation? Or is just that we aren't French refusing to understand on purpose?
Edited for poor English.
I don't know if she was being awkward about my pronunciation or if it really is that bad (although I spend 2 or 3 months a year in France usually get by pretty well), but I'm pretty sure that no matter how strong an accent someone had when ordering drinks in the UK then they would be understood. Is is just that we are more flexible with our language here so can make sense of mangled sentences or pronunciation? Or is just that we aren't French refusing to understand on purpose?
Edited for poor English.
Edited by 4Q on Saturday 21st January 10:34
4Q said:
I had had a similar thing in France. I'm reasonably fluent in French but obviously speak it with an accent and find unless I pronounce perfectly or get the sentence structure absolutely correct I'm sometimes misunderstood. For example, I was in a bar last year and asked for "doo ver do van blank do mayzon" (sic) in my best frenglish accent, to which the waitresses response was a "que" and a shrug, I asked again, the same response. After the forth time I gave up and said "two glasses of white wine" please in English and she understood perfectly.
I don't know if she was being awkward about my pronunciation or if it really is that bad (although I spend 2 or 3 months a year in France usually get by pretty well), but I'm pretty sure that no matter how strong an accent someone had when ordering drinks in the UK then they would be understood. Is is just that we are more flexible with our language here so can make sense of mangled sentences or pronunciation? Or is just that we aren't French refusing to understand on purpose?
Edited for poor English.
Interesting. I speak a little Spanish, quite badly. The reaction in Spain is positive, I've never experienced the pretending not to understand thing. Mostly they seem a little surprised that a Brit has actually bothered to learn a little!I don't know if she was being awkward about my pronunciation or if it really is that bad (although I spend 2 or 3 months a year in France usually get by pretty well), but I'm pretty sure that no matter how strong an accent someone had when ordering drinks in the UK then they would be understood. Is is just that we are more flexible with our language here so can make sense of mangled sentences or pronunciation? Or is just that we aren't French refusing to understand on purpose?
Edited for poor English.
Edited by 4Q on Saturday 21st January 10:34
K12beano said:
227bhp said:
French people being bloody awkward just for the sake of it, who would have thought it. 
I bet the Brits can be way, way worse!I think that the French genuinely do find foreign accents difficult and it does hinder comprehension. I've seen this a few times. My French is good, when it was less so but still passable I remember being in a restaurant and asking repeatedly for "de l'eau" and being repeatedly misunderstood by the French speaking waitress, albeit that the restaurant was in a French and Italian speaking part of Italy. In desperation I switched to Italian, which I don't really speak, or more accurately an ugly mixture of Italian and Spanish, and asked for "del' agua" at which point the light went on and she said "Ah! De l'eau! Bien sur!" Christ, that's what I said 3 or 4 times. Apparently not.
bloomen said:
I think the tolerance English speakers have for its idiosyncratic interpretations is a large factor.
I used to live in Italy. There if you ask for Rizlas 500 times in a row they will not have the slightest clue what you're on about and eventually ignore you. If you ask for Reeezlas then you're instantly golden.
I worked in Northern Italy for a short while and know what you mean, I was looking for Via Garabaldi, and pronounced it with the second a as in bald, the hotel receptionist looked at me blankly while I repeated it several times, I eventually wrote it and she said "Ah ! Garibaldi" and used the a sound as in apple.I used to live in Italy. There if you ask for Rizlas 500 times in a row they will not have the slightest clue what you're on about and eventually ignore you. If you ask for Reeezlas then you're instantly golden.
I think we do accept poor pronunciation and make allowances more than some other nationalities.
wsurfa said:
I work with people all over the world (50+ countries), and the common view from them is that English is probably the easiest language to get to the stage where people understand you. However that lack of strict rules makes it very hard to perfect.
For example 'Pub I go', 'I go pub', 'Go I pub', 'Us pub' 'Pub us' etc would most likely all be understood, but the lots of the phrases above would be a nightmare
Just saying "pub" with the right inflection would also be understood For example 'Pub I go', 'I go pub', 'Go I pub', 'Us pub' 'Pub us' etc would most likely all be understood, but the lots of the phrases above would be a nightmare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO4C3dMTjc4
Being English and having grown up in France I can see how, even with the right words, it can be completely incomprehensible.
The problem is not just the accent, but also the intonation. In English the intonation is at the beginning of a word, but it French it's at the end. The word locomotive is the same in both languages. If you start pronouncing it correctly and mumble the end in English, you will understand it. If you start by mumbling and finish the pronunciation correctly in French you will understand it. But do it the other way around in both languages and its much more challenging.
What I've often noticed with English people in France is that the French simply cannot understand it because English people "give up" on pronouncing the end of the words, which is possibly the most important part in the French language.
Some languages like Finnish do not have any intonation. They are easier to understand when they speak a foreign language, but they also sound extremely dull in whatever languages they try to speak.
The problem is not just the accent, but also the intonation. In English the intonation is at the beginning of a word, but it French it's at the end. The word locomotive is the same in both languages. If you start pronouncing it correctly and mumble the end in English, you will understand it. If you start by mumbling and finish the pronunciation correctly in French you will understand it. But do it the other way around in both languages and its much more challenging.
What I've often noticed with English people in France is that the French simply cannot understand it because English people "give up" on pronouncing the end of the words, which is possibly the most important part in the French language.
Some languages like Finnish do not have any intonation. They are easier to understand when they speak a foreign language, but they also sound extremely dull in whatever languages they try to speak.
Mother Tongue is great.
Another difficulty of English, especially in Britain, is just how many idioms we use and expressions we use.
People almost never just say "I'm tired" it will always be knackered, f
ked, shot, done or any one of a million other alternative ways of saying it. Not hungry but starving, famished, could eat a horse.
Another difficulty of English, especially in Britain, is just how many idioms we use and expressions we use.
People almost never just say "I'm tired" it will always be knackered, f
ked, shot, done or any one of a million other alternative ways of saying it. Not hungry but starving, famished, could eat a horse.SKP555 said:
Mother Tongue is great.
Another difficulty of English, especially in Britain, is just how many idioms we use and expressions we use.
People almost never just say "I'm tired" it will always be knackered, fked, shot, done or any one of a million other alternative ways of saying it. Not hungry but starving, famished, could eat a horse.
The word fAnother difficulty of English, especially in Britain, is just how many idioms we use and expressions we use.
People almost never just say "I'm tired" it will always be knackered, f
ked, shot, done or any one of a million other alternative ways of saying it. Not hungry but starving, famished, could eat a horse.k is interesting...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_TNYTHN5E
eldar said:
Hearing serious discussion of the word os always fun!
227bhp said:
I'd wager you only know the basics which is why you think it's simple, i'd like to watch you work your way through Vroom101's list up there ^^
In my opinion I speak English at a very very good level, vroom's list wasn't hard at all. Took me like 10 years to learn English properly 
Vroom's list is just a party piece and nothing to do with normal use of the language. So our language has irregular pronunciation and a few irregular verbs. Yes it does. But it's relatively easy to use. If I say "I runned" or "I swimmed" then people understand.
I speak French, fluently, having studied it and then lived there for ~3 years. French has just as many idiosyncrasies. Try "exigent", the word for "demanding". It's pronounced "exigant" and this is the way adjectives are normally formed in French. Take the PP of a verb, add "-ant" and that's you. Not in the case of exigent.
I'm half-heartedly learning Italian. The difficulty here is that you don't say "I am going" but simply "Am going". The fact that you have used "am" means that obviously you can be speaking only about yourself. However this means that if you don't know the verb endings then you don't know who you are referring to. Get it wrong and people will misunderstand. Factor in 3 verb groups (like French)and irregulars and you have some spade work to do. We don't have anything like this in English.
I speak French, fluently, having studied it and then lived there for ~3 years. French has just as many idiosyncrasies. Try "exigent", the word for "demanding". It's pronounced "exigant" and this is the way adjectives are normally formed in French. Take the PP of a verb, add "-ant" and that's you. Not in the case of exigent.
I'm half-heartedly learning Italian. The difficulty here is that you don't say "I am going" but simply "Am going". The fact that you have used "am" means that obviously you can be speaking only about yourself. However this means that if you don't know the verb endings then you don't know who you are referring to. Get it wrong and people will misunderstand. Factor in 3 verb groups (like French)and irregulars and you have some spade work to do. We don't have anything like this in English.
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