How do people become so brainwashed?
Discussion
smn159 said:
It's a clever argument but has been shown to be unsound - it used a form of modal logic but makes invalid assumptions. Plantinga himself has admitted that it doesn't prove the existence of God.
http://counterapologist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/cou...
You have been reading :-)http://counterapologist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/cou...
Just to reiterate, I am an atheist. I don't believe this proves the existence of God.
My point was always that it is hypocritical to criticise the honestly held beliefs of others without really understanding what you are criticising or even the shield (often science and logic) which is being used.
Put 99% of atheists or agnostics in a room with a well read theologeon and they would be tied in knots. Equally put 99% of sunday church goes in a room with a well read atheist philosopher and they would be tied in knots. In this regard we are much closer together and more people should accept it and show each other a bit more respect.
grumbledoak said:
Technically, if "I don't know" is all you've got then your estimate of the odds for yes vs. no should be 50:50!
I don't know I won't be offered the part of the next James Bond. There might be a public backlash against the good looking, athletic, professional actor type Bond, and the producers might decide to go for a balding office worker with a pot belly, in his mid 50s.
But although I don't know this won't happen, I'm not sure the odds are quite 50/50. more like a billion to 1 against.
Who knows, if they decide the next Bond should be a "posting drivel on the internet" type Bond, you could get the gig.
p1stonhead said:
Dagnir said:
...but if they weren't ever introduced to Religion as a concept, would it naturally take that form?
I suspect not and certainly not now, in this age of scientific understanding.
Someone said the below I cant remember who;I suspect not and certainly not now, in this age of scientific understanding.
If every religious book and every science book that exist were destroyed today and no one was left who remembered them, in 1000 years, all of the science ones would be back because the tests would all yield the same results. The religious ones wouldnt exist or would be totally different.
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/stephe...
gregs656 said:
smn159 said:
It's a clever argument but has been shown to be unsound - it used a form of modal logic but makes invalid assumptions. Plantinga himself has admitted that it doesn't prove the existence of God.
http://counterapologist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/cou...
You have been reading :-)http://counterapologist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/cou...
Just to reiterate, I am an atheist. I don't believe this proves the existence of God.
My point was always that it is hypocritical to criticise the honestly held beliefs of others without really understanding what you are criticising or even the shield (often science and logic) which is being used.
Put 99% of atheists or agnostics in a room with a well read theologeon and they would be tied in knots. Equally put 99% of sunday church goes in a room with a well read atheist philosopher and they would be tied in knots. In this regard we are much closer together and more people should accept it and show each other a bit more respect.
p1stonhead said:
A god would mean that everything science has discovered was ultimately put there by an intelligent being who then disappeared never to be seen or evidenced again.
And that a supposedly all-seeing, loving god thinks ISIS chucking people off buildings or kids drowning in the Med isn't worth putting in an occasional appearance. If there is one, he's a sick f
k.gregs656 said:
PhilboSE said:
OK, change the word "Rule" to the word "Premise" above.
if X -> Y then Y -> X cannot be used as part of a proof.
Specifically what is the fallacy? if X -> Y then Y -> X cannot be used as part of a proof.
If it is warm inside my house then it is on fire.
The first statement does not make the second one true.
Edited by PhilboSE on Friday 24th February 21:28
smn159 said:
gregs656 said:
smn159 said:
It's a clever argument but has been shown to be unsound - it used a form of modal logic but makes invalid assumptions. Plantinga himself has admitted that it doesn't prove the existence of God.
http://counterapologist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/cou...
You have been reading :-)http://counterapologist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/cou...
Just to reiterate, I am an atheist. I don't believe this proves the existence of God.
My point was always that it is hypocritical to criticise the honestly held beliefs of others without really understanding what you are criticising or even the shield (often science and logic) which is being used.
Put 99% of atheists or agnostics in a room with a well read theologeon and they would be tied in knots. Equally put 99% of sunday church goes in a room with a well read atheist philosopher and they would be tied in knots. In this regard we are much closer together and more people should accept it and show each other a bit more respect.
gregs656 said:
My point was always that it is hypocritical to criticise the honestly held beliefs of others without really understanding what you are criticising or even the shield (often science and logic) which is being used.
Put 99% of atheists or agnostics in a room with a well read theologeon and they would be tied in knots. Equally put 99% of sunday church goes in a room with a well read atheist philosopher and they would be tied in knots. In this regard we are much closer together and more people should accept it and show each other a bit more respect.
I couldn't agree more.Put 99% of atheists or agnostics in a room with a well read theologeon and they would be tied in knots. Equally put 99% of sunday church goes in a room with a well read atheist philosopher and they would be tied in knots. In this regard we are much closer together and more people should accept it and show each other a bit more respect.
An awful lot of people use science as a pseudo-religion, while others use their religion as a pseudo-science. By irrationally blurring the lines between religion and science, both groups mistakenly see inherent conflict between religion and science when there is none. They create a false dichotomy by seeing it as a competition between two things of the same type, i.e. either as a good religion versus a bad religion, or good science versus bad science. In fact religion and science address fundamentally different types of question and don't have to tread on each other's toes at all ... which explains the non-mystery that plenty of profoundly clear-thinking people can have religious faith while also being first class scientists.
(FWIW I too am an atheist.)
Pothole said:
robemcdonald said:
If only someone had told Jeremy Beadle.
In all seriousness though you only have to turn on the news and see the garbage that the gulable seem all too eager to lap up.
as opposed to the English lessons?In all seriousness though you only have to turn on the news and see the garbage that the gulable seem all too eager to lap up.
as I age I sleep less this gives me more time to devote to my beloved Diane, Emily and Shammi.
However even those hard core sex bombs cant occupy all my time so I watch late night TV. I love walker Texas ranger but whilst waiting for it I flip up a channel and see TBN. My favourite there is "Enjoying Everyday Life" Its presented by Joyce Meyer who has the strangest mouth I have ever seen. In between fantasising about just what I could get into her mouth I note how she truly is a modest down to earth woman who found God.
Then sometimes I get to see the inbetween adverts. they don't mess about. Non of this £3 a month donation crap. thsts for pussys. This is for God and its £35 a month.
How the fook that channel has a licence to broadcast beats me.
But I would miss Joyces wide mouth
However even those hard core sex bombs cant occupy all my time so I watch late night TV. I love walker Texas ranger but whilst waiting for it I flip up a channel and see TBN. My favourite there is "Enjoying Everyday Life" Its presented by Joyce Meyer who has the strangest mouth I have ever seen. In between fantasising about just what I could get into her mouth I note how she truly is a modest down to earth woman who found God.
Then sometimes I get to see the inbetween adverts. they don't mess about. Non of this £3 a month donation crap. thsts for pussys. This is for God and its £35 a month.
How the fook that channel has a licence to broadcast beats me.
But I would miss Joyces wide mouth
ATG said:
In fact religion and science address fundamentally different types of question and don't have to tread on each other's toes at all ... which explains the non-mystery that plenty of profoundly clear-thinking people can have religious faith while also being first class scientists.
(FWIW I too am an atheist.)
How can the existence or otherwise of a supernatural being who can interact with the natural world not be a matter for science? (FWIW I too am an atheist.)
smn159 said:
ATG said:
In fact religion and science address fundamentally different types of question and don't have to tread on each other's toes at all ... which explains the non-mystery that plenty of profoundly clear-thinking people can have religious faith while also being first class scientists.
(FWIW I too am an atheist.)
How can the existence or otherwise of a supernatural being who can interact with the natural world not be a matter for science? (FWIW I too am an atheist.)
You're falling into the trap of thinking that religion is a pseudo-science.
ATG said:
gregs656 said:
My point was always that it is hypocritical to criticise the honestly held beliefs of others without really understanding what you are criticising or even the shield (often science and logic) which is being used.
Put 99% of atheists or agnostics in a room with a well read theologeon and they would be tied in knots. Equally put 99% of sunday church goes in a room with a well read atheist philosopher and they would be tied in knots. In this regard we are much closer together and more people should accept it and show each other a bit more respect.
I couldn't agree more.Put 99% of atheists or agnostics in a room with a well read theologeon and they would be tied in knots. Equally put 99% of sunday church goes in a room with a well read atheist philosopher and they would be tied in knots. In this regard we are much closer together and more people should accept it and show each other a bit more respect.
An awful lot of people use science as a pseudo-religion, while others use their religion as a pseudo-science. By irrationally blurring the lines between religion and science, both groups mistakenly see inherent conflict between religion and science when there is none. They create a false dichotomy by seeing it as a competition between two things of the same type, i.e. either as a good religion versus a bad religion, or good science versus bad science. In fact religion and science address fundamentally different types of question and don't have to tread on each other's toes at all ... which explains the non-mystery that plenty of profoundly clear-thinking people can have religious faith while also being first class scientists.
(FWIW I too am an atheist.)
Regarding previous comments about 'respect' for someone's faith, I agree that there is no need to 'give respect' automatically to any person or faith.
Conversely it may be asked; why many people feel it is necessary to show considerable public disrespect for other's faith.
Science today is, as one philosopher puts it, 'true enough' to describe the physical world we live in and how it works.
What science does not do, is describe how we as people should behave in the world.
It comes as a surprise to many people outside of any faith, that many Christians, Muslims and Jews do not believe the Biblical/Qur'an/Torah creation stories.
Indeed, it surprises the Hell out of many converts to these religions to find otherwise quite devout followers of their faith that reject creationism and opt for science.
My wifes mum has MS and has been wheel chair bound since her early twenties, she's not in her early fifties. She has a helper sent to her everyday for two hours by the government to help her stretch and do excercises and help with general duties around the house she's unable to do. This woman is a full on christian religious fanatic, born in Barundi in Africa she's a hardcore church go'er, no problem with that except she can't keep her opinions to herself, she comes in every morning and wait for my wifes mum to wake up, she'll go straight to the computer, onto youtube and put crap on the computer like the first video in the thread and crank up the volume. Over the years and before I came along she forces her opinions on my wifes disabled mum who is too soft and not nasty enough to tell her to feck off. She even convinced my MIL to go along to one of these seminars and said that they'll make her walk again obviously the MIL didn't believe it and only went to shut her up, turns out it didn't work (her being able to walk again) and apparently it's vecause she didn't believe enough according to the crazy christianist.
NordicCrankShaft said:
My wifes mum has MS and has been wheel chair bound since her early twenties, she's not in her early fifties. She has a helper sent to her everyday for two hours by the government to help her stretch and do excercises and help with general duties around the house she's unable to do. This woman is a full on christian religious fanatic, born in Barundi in Africa she's a hardcore church go'er, no problem with that except she can't keep her opinions to herself, she comes in every morning and wait for my wifes mum to wake up, she'll go straight to the computer, onto youtube and put crap on the computer like the first video in the thread and crank up the volume. Over the years and before I came along she forces her opinions on my wifes disabled mum who is too soft and not nasty enough to tell her to feck off. She even convinced my MIL to go along to one of these seminars and said that they'll make her walk again obviously the MIL didn't believe it and only went to shut her up, turns out it didn't work (her being able to walk again) and apparently it's vecause she didn't believe enough according to the crazy christianist.
She really needs a new carer if such a thing can be arranged, IMO.As much as I dislike the idea of someone being put out of work for their beliefs, I believe she may well be precluded from offering unsolicited religious advice/doctrine by the rules of her engagement.
Raising the subject is one thing, preaching to someone generally uninterested in listening is another.
ETA
You're not in the UK though are you?
In which case I would have no idea what protections you have, but it may be worth quietly investigating...
Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Saturday 25th February 14:04
Goaty Bill 2 said:
She really needs a new carer if such a thing can be arranged, IMO.
As much as I dislike the idea of someone being put out of work for their beliefs, I believe she may well be precluded from offering unsolicited religious advice/doctrine by the rules of her engagement.
Raising the subject is one thing, preaching to someone generally uninterested in listening is another.
ETA
You're not in the UK though are you?
In which case I would have no idea what protections you have, but it may be worth quietly investigating...
To be honest her mum has generally got her head screwed on very well it's just shes to much of a soft touch and she's not that keen on change as this woman helps her shower and those sort of things too and she doesn't want the problem of someone different coming every week. Both me and my wife have tried to talk to her about it and change her mind because to be honest the carer is a lazy bAs much as I dislike the idea of someone being put out of work for their beliefs, I believe she may well be precluded from offering unsolicited religious advice/doctrine by the rules of her engagement.
Raising the subject is one thing, preaching to someone generally uninterested in listening is another.
ETA
You're not in the UK though are you?
In which case I would have no idea what protections you have, but it may be worth quietly investigating...
Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Saturday 25th February 14:04
d and does things extremely half heartedly. We've even written out a cleaning/task rota of things that need to be done every day or two/three, problem is the MIL doesn't help by not keeping on top of the situation and when she's approached her in the past about it she plays the race card.I'm in Norway, so the slightest hint that someone accuses you of being racist there's an extreme amount of panic and sympathy for the "victim".
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