Auction House Shenanigans
Discussion
I inherited a load of 'antiques' when my grandfather died, I use that term loosely as it was mostly junk but I sent it to a local (supposedly reputable) auction house.
The auction was back in January, they charge you £4 per lot plus 18% commission on sales + VAT, when an item sells you have to wait 6 weeks before they pay you.
Some of the items were 19th century Chinese vases, they had a guide price of £80-£120 and £150-£200 respectively. The former sold for £42 and the latter £70 which I guess is just the way the die falls, right? However on the original pre-sales form they provided me these items had a reserve of £80 and £150. When I pointed out before the auction they'd not listed some of my lots on the form they provided an updated pre-sales form but on this one the reserves were gone.
I've just been looking at their latest catalogue for their next auction in March so imagine my surprise when I see these vases listed again, however the one they originally listed at £80-£120 now has a guide price of £120-£150 and the others (previously at £150-£200) are yet to be priced. I haven't even been paid for these items yet!
Does this sound untoward?
The auction was back in January, they charge you £4 per lot plus 18% commission on sales + VAT, when an item sells you have to wait 6 weeks before they pay you.
Some of the items were 19th century Chinese vases, they had a guide price of £80-£120 and £150-£200 respectively. The former sold for £42 and the latter £70 which I guess is just the way the die falls, right? However on the original pre-sales form they provided me these items had a reserve of £80 and £150. When I pointed out before the auction they'd not listed some of my lots on the form they provided an updated pre-sales form but on this one the reserves were gone.
I've just been looking at their latest catalogue for their next auction in March so imagine my surprise when I see these vases listed again, however the one they originally listed at £80-£120 now has a guide price of £120-£150 and the others (previously at £150-£200) are yet to be priced. I haven't even been paid for these items yet!
Does this sound untoward?
Edited by Oakey on Friday 24th February 14:58
MDMA . said:
my cynical side says they have bought your goods. you'll end up with 25.73 + 50.08 and they will end up with stock worth 6 times as much. or that's how I work it out.
Yes, this was what I was thinking. Another example. Last auction was two weeks ago, one of my lots was a job lot (a box of pottery). It 'sold' for £5. So after fees and commission I'd be lucky to see 5p-10p. Not that I've been paid yet anyway.
Not only is that job lot now listed again in their upcoming auction under a different lot number for £10-£15 but they've used the exact same photo from when they listed it for me (it even has the original lot number sticker visible). So effectively, I'm paying them to 'buy' my stuff which they're immediately flipping.
I also watched the last auction live online through The Saleroom. A pair of Royal Crown Derby saucers I listed had a winning bid of £28 yet when I got my post-sales form they've listed it as sold for £10 and when I queried this with them they said they'd look into it and get back to me (they haven't).
Another item on the post-sales form was listed as 'unsold' yet I've seen it actually did sell.
The entire thing is leaving a sour taste in my mouth, their reviews are't promising either;
"They constantly miss Internet bids from the salesroom tending to sell to a room bidder often for less than what was bid on the Internet."
"Oh and yes the family buy a large chunk of goods from the auction which they fail to pay for, hence the massive cash flow problem and why they struggle to or will postpone your payment. Be warned, beware, be careful! "
"I recently took a valuable antique collection to their saleroom to be valued by them, I was told to leave the items and a valuer would get back to me in the next week as they needed to do 'further research', after 4 weeks of hearing nothing I called their offices to find they didn't have the items and they had sold them for £80 when the collection was worth £1000+, I made a formal complaint but have never received a response, reported them to the police!!! AVOID AT ALL COSTS!! RUN BY A BUNCH OF DELUSIONAL THIEVES!"
"Rip people off and steal their money. Lose their goods and don't pay up. Once they find the goods they keep them for themselves. Don't give staff a break and lie to them in order to get them to unwillingly lie to customers. Disgraceful people. Business should be shut down."
I experienced what I would loosely describe as "shady" practices going on at an auction house (not as bad as above though!)
Examples:-
1)"same" items appearing week after week even though earlier ones had sold - It looked like the AH had bought a stock and were drip feeding them onto the sales. I guess this is legal, but morally questionable?
2)I was bidding on an item and the auctioneer was clearly taking bids from the invisible guy at the back of the room - I pushed it up but gave up before the auctioneer
3)I bought a router by proxy (using a signed form submitted the day before) and when I went to collect the goods the day after auction was presented with a bill which also included a router table which i didn't want at any price _ It could have been a genuine mistake or an attempt at an "opportunity sale". They removed it from the invoice.
4)Was there one time when 12 petrol mowers were for sale in 3 lots (different engines). A guy who the auctioneer knew by first name bid on the first lot and was "sold" all 3 lots in one go before anyone else could issue a protest.
As always buyer (or in previous notes, seller) beware.
Examples:-
1)"same" items appearing week after week even though earlier ones had sold - It looked like the AH had bought a stock and were drip feeding them onto the sales. I guess this is legal, but morally questionable?
2)I was bidding on an item and the auctioneer was clearly taking bids from the invisible guy at the back of the room - I pushed it up but gave up before the auctioneer
3)I bought a router by proxy (using a signed form submitted the day before) and when I went to collect the goods the day after auction was presented with a bill which also included a router table which i didn't want at any price _ It could have been a genuine mistake or an attempt at an "opportunity sale". They removed it from the invoice.
4)Was there one time when 12 petrol mowers were for sale in 3 lots (different engines). A guy who the auctioneer knew by first name bid on the first lot and was "sold" all 3 lots in one go before anyone else could issue a protest.
As always buyer (or in previous notes, seller) beware.
I think that these practices are more commonplace than they should be, afew years ago sold some items and agreed a total price that I wanted and that payment would be made within 21 days of the auction.
As it turned out the auctioneers agreed a price with a dealer just before the auction was to take place and part of that agreement is that he wouldnt pay the auctioneer until he had sold the items. The auctioneer said that they were not bound therefore to keep to the 21 day agreement as there was no auction.
After many reminders, I issued proceedings in the Small Claims Court and the auctioneers paid immediately.
As it turned out the auctioneers agreed a price with a dealer just before the auction was to take place and part of that agreement is that he wouldnt pay the auctioneer until he had sold the items. The auctioneer said that they were not bound therefore to keep to the 21 day agreement as there was no auction.
After many reminders, I issued proceedings in the Small Claims Court and the auctioneers paid immediately.
MDMA . said:
Try and get what's owed and move on. Seems to be a theme with them reading those reviews 
Does look like they are buying their own stock from the lots in the sale. Not good.
I still have items there, I'm thinking when they send the next pre sales form I'm going to point out the Chinese vases and say "you forgot to include these, these are mine too" and supply my photos of them (I photographed and inventoried everything before sending it to them). If they dispute it I'll question how it's possible someone could be selling items that belong to me, at a higher guide price than my own listing, when I've never received a penny for the items. Does look like they are buying their own stock from the lots in the sale. Not good.
You'd think there'd be some law against this? If I sell an item to a genuine bidder at a low price then you can accept that's just the way the dice fall, if that low bidder is in fact the auction house though, then it raises all sorts of questions. If they're in control of the sale then they can manipulate the final selling price. The auction room could have been empty for all I know!
techiedave said:
If it is Gerards my brother had some issues with them last year.
It couldn't be resolved amicably and it did involve visits to them
Go on, I'm listening. I've since spoken to a mate about the place in question, he says the owner is shady as fIt couldn't be resolved amicably and it did involve visits to them
k and has, in the past, pulled guns on people and had guns pulled on him (over gambling debts).Oakey said:
techiedave said:
If it is Gerards my brother had some issues with them last year.
It couldn't be resolved amicably and it did involve visits to them
Go on, I'm listening. I've since spoken to a mate about the place in question, he says the owner is shady as fIt couldn't be resolved amicably and it did involve visits to them
k and has, in the past, pulled guns on people and had guns pulled on him (over gambling debts).Fastpedeller said:
4)Was there one time when 12 petrol mowers were for sale in 3 lots (different engines). A guy who the auctioneer knew by first name bid on the first lot and was "sold" all 3 lots in one go before anyone else could issue a protest.
As always buyer (or in previous notes, seller) beware.
Sometimes auctions have "similar lots" or "ditto lots", for exampleAs always buyer (or in previous notes, seller) beware.
Lot 10 - Box of books
Lots 11 to 20 - Boxes of books
The auctioneer will state that lot 10 has a "buyers option" on it - so if you buy lot 10 for £20, you can have the others at £20 each if you wish.
I have used this before at auctions, and it MAY have been what happened with the lawnmowers...but I believe the auctioneer has a duty to state the option before the first lot is sold....
Did YOU ask for them to put a reserve on any of the items? If you didn't, they can just sell them regardless of what reserve/estimate is posted in catalogues. Not really the right thing to do, I agree, but that is likely what they have done.
As for their fee's, that is very expensive. Not paying out for 6 weeks is also ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason they can't send a cheque out within 7 days. Some auction houses will even pay out on the night of the sale.
As for the lots being re-entered, are you sure they arent sold and have just been re-entered in your name? It would be worth ringing them to see. If they have bought them cheap to stick back in and make a few quid, they are utter scumbags!
I am an auctioneer, mainly selling this sort of thing. Our fee's are average, we charge 15%+vat on the sale and no entry fee. Cheques are sent out within 5 working days.
Anything that doesn't make the reserve but we have a bid on, we will call the vendor to see if they will accept the bid. It's the fairest way to do it for both the vendor and buyer.
It seems this is an auction house to avoid!
As for their fee's, that is very expensive. Not paying out for 6 weeks is also ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason they can't send a cheque out within 7 days. Some auction houses will even pay out on the night of the sale.
As for the lots being re-entered, are you sure they arent sold and have just been re-entered in your name? It would be worth ringing them to see. If they have bought them cheap to stick back in and make a few quid, they are utter scumbags!
I am an auctioneer, mainly selling this sort of thing. Our fee's are average, we charge 15%+vat on the sale and no entry fee. Cheques are sent out within 5 working days.
Anything that doesn't make the reserve but we have a bid on, we will call the vendor to see if they will accept the bid. It's the fairest way to do it for both the vendor and buyer.
It seems this is an auction house to avoid!
Fastpedeller said:
I experienced what I would loosely describe as "shady" practices going on at an auction house (not as bad as above though!)
Examples:-
1)"same" items appearing week after week even though earlier ones had sold - It looked like the AH had bought a stock and were drip feeding them onto the sales. I guess this is legal, but morally questionable?
A lot of auction houses do this, including ourselves. It's no different than anybody else entering items into the auction. The only difference would be that VAT may be charged but obviously that would need to be stated at the time of sale. Obviously I can't speak for every auction house but everything WE sell ourselves is new.Examples:-
1)"same" items appearing week after week even though earlier ones had sold - It looked like the AH had bought a stock and were drip feeding them onto the sales. I guess this is legal, but morally questionable?
Fastpedeller said:
2)I was bidding on an item and the auctioneer was clearly taking bids from the invisible guy at the back of the room - I pushed it up but gave up before the auctioneer
This is usually done if the item/vehicle has a reserve, it's normally ran to a point it is worth calling the vendor. My normal limit is 50%, anything less than that and it's not worth the phone call.Fastpedeller said:
3)I bought a router by proxy (using a signed form submitted the day before) and when I went to collect the goods the day after auction was presented with a bill which also included a router table which i didn't want at any price _ It could have been a genuine mistake or an attempt at an "opportunity sale". They removed it from the invoice.
That shouldn't be done at all. It may have been a genuine mistake but trying to make you buy something you didn't bid on is a dick move.Fastpedeller said:
4)Was there one time when 12 petrol mowers were for sale in 3 lots (different engines). A guy who the auctioneer knew by first name bid on the first lot and was "sold" all 3 lots in one go before anyone else could issue a protest.
As always buyer (or in previous notes, seller) beware.
Using the buyers "option" is only normally done if the items are identical. If they are different then a buyer may be waiting for one in particular. To do that if the items aren't the same is a dick move/laziness. As always buyer (or in previous notes, seller) beware.
As for knowing the buyers name, don't read too much into that. All auction regulars tend to suck up to the auctioneer. Knowing people's names isn't unusual at all. You wouldn't believe how many "friends" an auctioneer has! To put it into perspective, before I became an auctioneer most buyers would completely blank me which I was fine with. When I started selling, everyone would make a B line to speak me. Shaking hands, tapping me on the back etc. These are known in the trade as
s!
These "s" get no preference over anyone else, if they do then the auctioneer is also a ! (unless they are extremely pretty, then it's fine! )That all sounds very dodgy. I buy lots of things from auctions and use The Saleroom a lot and I find it very reliable. If you listen to the audio feed you can hear the auctioneer acknowledge the bid live as a confirmation.
In my experience the valuers are extremely good at knowing the landing zone for the real value of each item and it's entirely possible that on the day they knew that your items were undersold and they "bid" on them to flip in the next sale. It is, however, also possible that a genuine trader spotted the same thing and chanced his/her arm on buying the items at a discount and taking a punt on flipping them directly into the next sale, in the hope that a better buyer comes along. Without evidence you won't know if you were just unlucky, or taken for a mug. If the AH maintains that your items sold and that the buyer put them into the next auction, it will be very hard for you to prove otherwise. However if they genuinely have gone to the trade then there's no reason why you shouldn't get paid.
The world of auctions is full of "earthy" types and there's all sorts of dodgy practices that go on. It does sound like this house is one of the dodgier ones and best avoided - there are more reputable ones around with fewer charges.
In my experience the valuers are extremely good at knowing the landing zone for the real value of each item and it's entirely possible that on the day they knew that your items were undersold and they "bid" on them to flip in the next sale. It is, however, also possible that a genuine trader spotted the same thing and chanced his/her arm on buying the items at a discount and taking a punt on flipping them directly into the next sale, in the hope that a better buyer comes along. Without evidence you won't know if you were just unlucky, or taken for a mug. If the AH maintains that your items sold and that the buyer put them into the next auction, it will be very hard for you to prove otherwise. However if they genuinely have gone to the trade then there's no reason why you shouldn't get paid.
The world of auctions is full of "earthy" types and there's all sorts of dodgy practices that go on. It does sound like this house is one of the dodgier ones and best avoided - there are more reputable ones around with fewer charges.
Just saw your latest post.
If you have strong evidence that YOU agreed a reserve on the items, then challenge the AH on that fact. They'll undoubtedly assert that the items have sold but you might be able to get them to make up the difference in cash value. But from the sounds of this AH they'll probably tell you to Foxtrot Oscar.
If you have strong evidence that YOU agreed a reserve on the items, then challenge the AH on that fact. They'll undoubtedly assert that the items have sold but you might be able to get them to make up the difference in cash value. But from the sounds of this AH they'll probably tell you to Foxtrot Oscar.
I was speaking to one of their disgruntled ex-employees earlier, apparently 'forgetting' to include reserves is something that happens quite often.
Like I said earlier, I don't mind these things when they happen fair and square but not if I'm being taken for a mug and bent over for a reaming.
Like I said earlier, I don't mind these things when they happen fair and square but not if I'm being taken for a mug and bent over for a reaming.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff