Karate experts - are they really 'hard'?

[turbobloke]

Guvernator said:

All these people telling stories about someone taking on multiple attackers, if a group of people make a proper concerted attack, you could be an 18th Dan whatever, you are still going down. However what usually happens is 1 or 2 trouble makers have a half-hearted go and everyone else just stands around watching

Which reminds me of this - cue another vid from the PH archives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSgWRS8R58g

Looks like a former boxer to me but I'm no expert on useful street techniques. Or any of the useless varieties, at this stage of my youth.

[PositronicRay]

Cob1 said:

Before fatness & middle age sprung its unwelcome gifts upon me, I did judo as a kid, then taekwondo, bit of boxing and then bit of Jiu jitsu as an adult with the odd one off class in Krav Maga.

Here's Cob1's top 7 fighting styles, in order of likelihood of victory, IMHO:

1 Talking - Because being eloquent and doing well at the debating society always works. (See point 2 if, er, you talking is what got you into this mess)

2, Have your mates hold you back - good job you held me back there, Steve, if I'd have got hold of him I'd be up on charges for murder... yeah, well he's not worth it mate.

2 Running away - fighting more than one person? a knife is involved? You used to be a bit tasty but now you are a powerfully built company director? I don't care how good you are, or what MA you do/did, in fights like this you run a 2:1 odds of permanent/serious injury. run.

3 rugby player - big heavy lads who are used to taking big impacts... punch a prop in the face and he'll just think you are flirting... it'll be like fighting a wall.

4 Jiu Jitsu/MMA ground work - Pretty good, easy to do basic stuff whilst over refreshed, wearing black tie in one's members club, (training at my club included being 'attacked' repeatedly, all in rapid succession by the whole class - with a random mix of groups, or 1 to 1 with punches, kicks, fake weapons etc) - this doesn't work if there is a group of attackers being on the ground against a group will end badly for you (go to points 1&3)

3 Boxing - though they dont have quite the stopping power, punches are far more likely to land and be quicker than kicks (not an opinion, its biometrics - yay science). Plus I dont know about you, but I'm not doing flying hook kicks in a bar, on a slippery floor, wearing tweed jacket & brogues, after 6 pints & a rather nice bottle of port...

5, Taekwondo/Karate etc. You may be quicker, more flexible & fitter and your timing could be bang on - but in most brawls the techniques you train for wont apply... I got up to international level (v. briefly), I loved the sport but its not the one for winning a brawl with a gobby plumber from bolton in the kebab house at 2am.

6, krav maga - its all about maim and kill, so you either wont be good enough to use it, or if you are, you just won't use it. Ps. If you are comfortable using Krav Maga in anger in a pub, congratulations you can field strip an Ak74 blindfolded, eat deadly spiders for fun and were probably the chap on the balcony? you wear a balaclava for a living? No? oh.

Did you perchance take a few blows to the noggin?

[Guvernator]

turbobloke said:

Guvernator said:

All these people telling stories about someone taking on multiple attackers, if a group of people make a proper concerted attack, you could be an 18th Dan whatever, you are still going down. However what usually happens is 1 or 2 trouble makers have a half-hearted go and everyone else just stands around watching

Which reminds me of this - cue another vid from the PH archives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSgWRS8R58g

Looks like a former boxer to me but I'm no expert on useful street techniques. Or any of the useless varieties, at this stage of my youth.

Yep, looks like the bouncer has had a bit of boxing training as he knows how to throw a proper punch at least. Then two gobbie but largely ineffective blokes giving it large and the rest standing around watching. If they'd all steamed in, the bouncer would have been toast but most people really don't have the balls to get involved in a proper fight so the bouncer has time to get 2-3 solid hits in and it's all over.

Boxing is probably one of the most useful "martial arts" you can do as it involves easily learnt basic techniques, duck, cover up and throw a proper punch i.e. no stupid 20 move combos. Boxing also usually involves getting into a ring and getting smacked around very often which prepares you really well for the shock of conflict and getting hit which is probably the most important bit of all. Most other stuff, I'd say probably 90% of martial arts, especially the non-contact Pyjama line dancing (great phrase) is a big fat load of BS designed to rob you of your money.

Edited by Guvernator on Monday 20th March 15:56

[Pixel Pusher]

Isn't this just easier?

https://youtu.be/sduzV5jSv8E

[Ayahuasca]

Guvernator said:

turbobloke said:

Guvernator said:

All these people telling stories about someone taking on multiple attackers, if a group of people make a proper concerted attack, you could be an 18th Dan whatever, you are still going down. However what usually happens is 1 or 2 trouble makers have a half-hearted go and everyone else just stands around watching

Which reminds me of this - cue another vid from the PH archives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSgWRS8R58g

Looks like a former boxer to me but I'm no expert on useful street techniques. Or any of the useless varieties, at this stage of my youth.

Yep, looks like the bouncer has had a bit of boxing training as he knows how to throw a proper punch at least. Then two gobbie but largely ineffective blokes giving it large and the rest standing around watching. If they'd all steamed in, the bouncer would have been toast but most people really don't have the balls to get involved in a proper fight so the power has time to get 2-3 solid hits in and it's all over.

Boxing is probably one of the most useful "martial arts" you can do as it involves easily learnt basic techniques, duck, cover up and throw a proper punch i.e. no stupid 20 move combos. Boxing also usually involves getting into a ring and getting smacked around very often which prepares you really well for the shock of conflict and getting hit which is probably the most important bit of all. Most other stuff, I'd say probably 90% of martial arts, especially the non-contact Pyjama line dancing (great phrase) is a big fat load of BS designed to rob you of your money.

Doesn't look that much like a boxer. Punches were telegraphed haymakers by all parties. The one that put the guy out cold seems to have been to the back of the neck, expect he knocked himself out properly when his head hit the concrete. Easy to die like that.

[Joey Ramone]

Rude-boy said:

Quite simple really - He lived in Tenbury Wells. But like the fact that he was SBS that will mean nothing to you - All I know is unless it was between him and Chuck Norris he'd be the one I'd want in my corner all day, every day.

I know about a dozen current serving members of the SBS. I was even down at the base at Hamworthy a few months ago.

None of them are particularly hard in a 'fighting' sense. Yes, they kill people. Yes, they can withstand the sorts of pressures that I would crumble at, and can push themselves physically to a degree that most people would find incomprehensible, and at the same time preserve enough spare mental capacity to make very difficult tactical decisions on the spur of the moment. But I wouldn't really be bothered about having to fight any of them.

Being SF means nothing in and of itself in the context of this discussion. Indeed, I was having pretty much this conversation with one of them a few weeks ago, when we were discussing decent cycling routes around Poole. He mentioned the fact that the base is in a fairly rough part of town (for Poole) there's sometimes the potential to get into an argument with some gobby fkers, but, in his words, the last thing you want is to pick a fight with a bunch of scaffolders. Chuck Norris might, but he wouldn't.

[Guvernator]

Ayahuasca said:

Doesn't look that much like a boxer. Punches were telegraphed haymakers by all parties. The one that put the guy out cold seems to have been to the back of the neck, expect he knocked himself out properly when his head hit the concrete. Easy to die like that.

He knew how to punch in that he actually landed them and didn't just punch thin air which happens A LOT. You notice how the other guys both swing and miss. Landing a punch on a smallish moving target is actually a lot harder then people think, especially when the adrenaline is pumping. The bouncer managed to land 2-3 decent hits which is a lot more than most people could manage in a similar situation.

[anonymous-user]

Liokault said:

Source: comming up for 30 years of MA training, sparring full contact with everyone willing who came through the door.

Swoon.

turbobloke said:

At one time I knew where to strike and the technique to use in order to put the blade of a sword through two major arteries, the windpipe and spinal cord in one blow, all without completely severing the head.

Two swoons.

Hardest thing in this thread is my knob after reading comments like that.

[SlimJim16v]

When I was younger I thought I was Bruce Lee. My kicks were excellent and I did lots of (light) sparring. My brother took up boxing and after about 3 - 6 months training I couldn't lay a finger on him, even with my years of training. I did pick up a killer right hook though, which I've used to great effect.

Having met many hard bds, those you hear spoken about with fear and respect, I found that many of them have a background in some form of fighting art, but have honed their skills by actually using it.
One used to box and was an Arsenal er, fan and was a 17st bodybuilder/bouncer when I met him.
Another turned out to be a Wing Chun expert who travelled all over the world training and to see if it worked did door work and bodyguarding. I found this out when I accidentally ended up training with him.
Some are just s who've had lots of experience.

So, MA training without real life experience is useless and most of the techniques and training methods rubbish, unless Thai or boxing. It will give a slight advantage over an untrained knob, but not your average thug.

Other than avoidance, the best things are being used to being hit and having a good solid punch.

Edited by SlimJim16v on Monday 20th March 16:35

[turbobloke]

Ayahuasca said:

Doesn't look that much like a boxer.

Agreed, as per my earlier post he looks more like a former boxer.

Guvernator said:

He knew how to punch in that he actually landed them and didn't just punch thin air which happens A LOT. You notice how the other guys both swing and miss. Landing a punch on a smallish moving target is actually a lot harder then people think, especially when the adrenaline is pumping. The bouncer managed to land 2-3 decent hits which is a lot more than most people could manage in a similar situation.

Exactly, the two wannabe hard guys weren't punching they were doing little more than flapping an arm out. The chap I reckon looks like somebody with former boxing experience got his feet into the right position for each blow and they landed on target. As you say, not easy in the heat of a scrap with two potential aggressors to keep an eye on.

[turbobloke]

OpulentBob said:

turbobloke said:

At one time I knew where to strike and the technique to use in order to put the blade of a sword through two major arteries, the windpipe and spinal cord in one blow, all without completely severing the head.

Two swoons.

Hardest thing in this thread is my knob after reading comments like that.

You have my sincere sympathy!

Presumably you read the rest of the post, which you snipped out, and you understood it

Or perhaps not since, joking apart, at that point you would have seen that it was mentioned in the context of being useless, but part of what the training entailed. Hopefully that's flaccid enough for you!

[Jonmx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYPDnAu8nfc

This bloke would fit the definition of hard, and whilst I'm not sure he's what one could describe as a martial artist, in this interview he describes Goshinkwai and details it as 'instant pain in a package.' An interesting short interview loosely related to Goshinkwai. I don't think I've seen it posted in the thread yet.
John McAleese ex SAS, if you cba to click the link.

[Hoofy]

Jonmx said:

instant pain in a package

You can get a soothing cream for that.

[Ayahuasca]

How to end a fight in seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEWH_SuVgd8

Quite pragmatic. Thoughts?

[Jonmx]

Hoofy said:

Jonmx said:

instant pain in a package

You can get a soothing cream for that.

[Ayahuasca]

turbobloke said:

Ayahuasca said:

Doesn't look that much like a boxer.

Agreed, as per my earlier post he looks more like a former boxer.

Guvernator said:

He knew how to punch in that he actually landed them and didn't just punch thin air which happens A LOT. You notice how the other guys both swing and miss. Landing a punch on a smallish moving target is actually a lot harder then people think, especially when the adrenaline is pumping. The bouncer managed to land 2-3 decent hits which is a lot more than most people could manage in a similar situation.

Exactly, the two wannabe hard guys weren't punching they were doing little more than flapping an arm out. The chap I reckon looks like somebody with former boxing experience got his feet into the right position for each blow and they landed on target. As you say, not easy in the heat of a scrap with two potential aggressors to keep an eye on.

Just noticed the bouncer hit both men with his walkie talkie. That would have come sharp.

[Soov330e]

Gents

I give you Terry Wingrove.

Now 77 I believe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1kkvwjdg_Q


6:50 onwards

Edited by Soov330e on Monday 20th March 16:56

Edited by Soov330e on Monday 20th March 16:58

[Boring_Chris]

Cob1 said:

... wearing tweed jacket & brogues, after 6 pints & a rather nice bottle of port...

Tweed jacket and brogues?

Fight me.

[Boring_Chris]

OpulentBob said:

Liokault said:

Source: comming up for 30 years of MA training, sparring full contact with everyone willing who came through the door.

Swoon.

turbobloke said:

At one time I knew where to strike and the technique to use in order to put the blade of a sword through two major arteries, the windpipe and spinal cord in one blow, all without completely severing the head.

Two swoons.

Hardest thing in this thread is my knob after reading comments like that.

"Source: comming up for 30 years of MA training, sparring full contact with everyone willing who came through the door"

So, some might consider you... a... lethal weapon?

Turboblokes contribution deserves more attention, too. All without severing the head?! Mad skills there, mate. Mad, mad, skills.

[Jonmx]

One thing I've found about guys and girls who have the ability to cause a lot of damage as a result of their professional training is that they never really mention it, it's not really a topic of discussion. Unfortunately I think a lot of the MMA types etc love to have a lifestyle that revolves around 'bigging' yourself up and how hard you are. The pathetic willy waving by Connor Mcgregor and Floyd Maywether being a prime example of this. This contrasts with the old boy in that clip on the last page who looks like a retired geography teacher but clearly knows his stuff, and I doubt he walks around wearing a vest with 'Kev's Gym' written on the front.
I know that there are several PH members who have a very specialised military background, one of whom I met a few years ago. Really sound guy, amazing car, stunning wife and then through a casual conversation established not only was he on PH but also a double hard bd thanks to his military experience. I would have assumed he was into property or similar if I hadn't picked up on something he said.