Karate experts - are they really 'hard'?
Discussion
Boring_Chris said:
turbobloke said:
Boring_Chris said:
turbobloke said:
I can still remember which two arteries were being targeted with that cut.
Relax. Take the piss all you like. Apart from having a sense of humour and coping OK with pisstakes, if I picked up one of those swords and adopted the position these days it would put my back out.
I bet you were one of those rough boys who read comics at playtime
People who fight a lot are good at fighting, people who don't aren't.
It's an obscure trait of men to think they might have natural ability at tasks they've never done or at least not really practised well, very few watch Olympic level ping pong and reckon they'd give the little Chinese fella a run for his money but when it comes to unarmed combat or plating up front for a premier league team, somehow we've all got an opinion on what could be done better. Reality is something as multifaceted as combat sports holds a myriad of hidden opportunities for failure, the more you practice the more you realise this.
It's an obscure trait of men to think they might have natural ability at tasks they've never done or at least not really practised well, very few watch Olympic level ping pong and reckon they'd give the little Chinese fella a run for his money but when it comes to unarmed combat or plating up front for a premier league team, somehow we've all got an opinion on what could be done better. Reality is something as multifaceted as combat sports holds a myriad of hidden opportunities for failure, the more you practice the more you realise this.
FredClogs said:
People who fight a lot are good at fighting, people who don't aren't.
It's an obscure trait of men to think they might have natural ability at tasks they've never done or at least not really practised well, very few watch Olympic level ping pong and reckon they'd give the little Chinese fella a run for his money but when it comes to unarmed combat or plating up front for a premier league team, somehow we've all got an opinion on what could be done better. Reality is something as multifaceted as combat sports holds a myriad of hidden opportunities for failure, the more you practice the more you realise this.
I'm generally quite good at sports... I'll get stuck in etc etc etc.It's an obscure trait of men to think they might have natural ability at tasks they've never done or at least not really practised well, very few watch Olympic level ping pong and reckon they'd give the little Chinese fella a run for his money but when it comes to unarmed combat or plating up front for a premier league team, somehow we've all got an opinion on what could be done better. Reality is something as multifaceted as combat sports holds a myriad of hidden opportunities for failure, the more you practice the more you realise this.
I tried clay pigeon shooting a little while ago. Figured I'd be alright - fit lad, good at the old judging-of-a-distance kind of thing. Clocked multiple confirmed kills on Duck Hunt back in the day... I was dreadful at it. Absolutely f
king abysmal.Also, more related to subject, I tried my hand at boxing a little while ago. Again, I'm a fit lad - I'm only 5'9 but at about 13 stone not slight of build. I figured I'd do alright at it... Jeeeesus wept. You either need to put it hundreds of hours of practice to read the other guys movements, or you need Jedi reflexes to even stand a chance of just not getting knocked out! And this was against ordinary fat lads off the street!
One of the instructors there had gone reasonably far in the boxing world. He was a lovely lad - mild mannered, polite and a good teacher. But good grief - when he started showing us the moves, he just looked lethal. He wasn't huge, but was built, and was fast. Scarily so.
As you say; it's easy to be an armchair critic. But give these things a go and you soon realise the gulf between what you're capable of, and what the pros are doing.
Boring_Chris said:
FredClogs said:
People who fight a lot are good at fighting, people who don't aren't.
It's an obscure trait of men to think they might have natural ability at tasks they've never done or at least not really practised well, very few watch Olympic level ping pong and reckon they'd give the little Chinese fella a run for his money but when it comes to unarmed combat or plating up front for a premier league team, somehow we've all got an opinion on what could be done better. Reality is something as multifaceted as combat sports holds a myriad of hidden opportunities for failure, the more you practice the more you realise this.
I'm generally quite good at sports... I'll get stuck in etc etc etc.It's an obscure trait of men to think they might have natural ability at tasks they've never done or at least not really practised well, very few watch Olympic level ping pong and reckon they'd give the little Chinese fella a run for his money but when it comes to unarmed combat or plating up front for a premier league team, somehow we've all got an opinion on what could be done better. Reality is something as multifaceted as combat sports holds a myriad of hidden opportunities for failure, the more you practice the more you realise this.
I tried clay pigeon shooting a little while ago. Figured I'd be alright - fit lad, good at the old judging-of-a-distance kind of thing. Clocked multiple confirmed kills on Duck Hunt back in the day... I was dreadful at it. Absolutely f
king abysmal.Also, more related to subject, I tried my hand at boxing a little while ago. Again, I'm a fit lad - I'm only 5'9 but at about 13 stone not slight of build. I figured I'd do alright at it... Jeeeesus wept. You either need to put it hundreds of hours of practice to read the other guys movements, or you need Jedi reflexes to even stand a chance of just not getting knocked out! And this was against ordinary fat lads off the street!
One of the instructors there had gone reasonably far in the boxing world. He was a lovely lad - mild mannered, polite and a good teacher. But good grief - when he started showing us the moves, he just looked lethal. He wasn't huge, but was built, and was fast. Scarily so.
As you say; it's easy to be an armchair critic. But give these things a go and you soon realise the gulf between what you're capable of, and what the pros are doing.
Anyway you are talking about stages of learning:
1. Unconscious incompetent - you haven't yet found out that you are rubbish
2. Conscious incompetent - you know that you are rubbish
3. Conscious competent - if you try hard you can do it
4. Unconscious competent - do it without thinking about it.
Reading this thread made me think of this video of some Boxers vs Karate-Ka in Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eYEkror6hw
It'd be interesting to know how long the Boxers have been training compared to the Karate-ka in that video. You could argue it's about the fighter and not the art, or that the art moulds you into that fighter. But you can see two very different mindsets between the two sets of fighters, and it's very clear which set of fighters are comfortable with sparing hard, and getting hit.
Getting punched in the face day in, day out isn't for everyone, if it was easy then everybody would do it, hence the popularity of your local church hall Karate group which is fair enough if that's what people want to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eYEkror6hw
It'd be interesting to know how long the Boxers have been training compared to the Karate-ka in that video. You could argue it's about the fighter and not the art, or that the art moulds you into that fighter. But you can see two very different mindsets between the two sets of fighters, and it's very clear which set of fighters are comfortable with sparing hard, and getting hit.
Getting punched in the face day in, day out isn't for everyone, if it was easy then everybody would do it, hence the popularity of your local church hall Karate group which is fair enough if that's what people want to do.
To be fair the karate guys in that video aren't going full tilt, put them up against a proper sparring Muay Thai fighter and it might be a different story. Still I somewhat agree that boxing is probably one of the most useful things you can do if you want to learn proper self defense, if it's done right it's heavily based on full contact sparring which is one of THE most important things to help you prepare for a real fight.
A lot of people are lured in by the notion of martial arts sold to us in movies. People flying around in beautifully choreographed fight sequences just look so cool but it's make believe. Obtaining a "black belt" in Karate in a couple of years because you can memorize and repeat a few forms without actually hitting or being hit by anyone would see you get destroyed by most nutters in a real street fight.
Aggression is also a real factor, when push comes to shove, you'd be surprised how many people aren't actually capable of really hurting another human being. A few people can and fewer still have the ability to go all out. I was speaking to a special forces guy I used to work with and he stated that although they teach you a few moves, the most important thing they try to instill during training is the psychological ability to switch to 100% aggression if the need arises and do whatever it takes to take out the other guy. A lot of the time, this is more important then any number of fancy moves.
A lot of people are lured in by the notion of martial arts sold to us in movies. People flying around in beautifully choreographed fight sequences just look so cool but it's make believe. Obtaining a "black belt" in Karate in a couple of years because you can memorize and repeat a few forms without actually hitting or being hit by anyone would see you get destroyed by most nutters in a real street fight.
Aggression is also a real factor, when push comes to shove, you'd be surprised how many people aren't actually capable of really hurting another human being. A few people can and fewer still have the ability to go all out. I was speaking to a special forces guy I used to work with and he stated that although they teach you a few moves, the most important thing they try to instill during training is the psychological ability to switch to 100% aggression if the need arises and do whatever it takes to take out the other guy. A lot of the time, this is more important then any number of fancy moves.
Guvernator said:
I was speaking to a special forces guy I used to work with and he stated that although they teach you a few moves, the most important thing they try to instill during training is the psychological ability to pull out your Sig Sauer and squeeze off a couple of shots. A lot of the time, this is more important then any number of fancy moves.
Fixed that for you. 
This thread reminded me to dig out my copy of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas
Wonderful book and well worth a read for anyone interested (in a roundabout fashion) in the OP's question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas
Wonderful book and well worth a read for anyone interested (in a roundabout fashion) in the OP's question.
easytiger123 said:
This thread reminded me to dig out my copy of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas
Wonderful book and well worth a read for anyone interested (in a roundabout fashion) in the OP's question.
I'll second that, I've been on courses where Mr Mustard was teaching, he's quite an impressive man.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas
Wonderful book and well worth a read for anyone interested (in a roundabout fashion) in the OP's question.
"Hard" is not technique, speed or strength, "hard" is practiced.
Ayahuasca said:
What would the skilled boxer do if, when he moves forward and into, his knee gets stomp kicked and possibly broken, and he then gets a spinning elbow strike to the head?
The skilled boxer wouldn't be standing still and allowing the karate expert to stamp on his knee or use his elbows. Would the karate expert still remember how to do those things if his head were being beaten back and forth? You can't say which one is going to be more successful. As others say it is going to come down to aggression. If either one strolls in with a half hearted approach he'll get battered, and fights are won by people who wade in with maximum aggression from the word go. These are also the people who are charged with GBH.battered said:
The skilled boxer wouldn't be standing still and allowing the karate expert to stamp on his knee or use his elbows. Would the karate expert still remember how to do those things if his head were being beaten back and forth? You can't say which one is going to be more successful. As others say it is going to come down to aggression. If either one strolls in with a half hearted approach he'll get battered, and fights are won by people who wade in with maximum aggression from the word go. These are also the people who are charged with GBH.
Apt username!
Back to the original question, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Geoff Thompson yet. His book 'Watch my back' is a very good read.
Synopsis is as a kid he was abused by a MA instructor. He takes up Karate instead (As a defense mechanism), and moves into bouncing on doors in Coventry to push himself through his fear pyramid. He also runs his own dojo (animal days included, where anything goes), and ends up training with Chuck Norris. All told in a very matter-of-fact style, with a nice dollop of humour.
In answer to the question - depends on the person as well as the MA IMHO. Now I'm off to polish my katana and dominate the stairs in case an intruder gets past the claymores and angry badgers, now they have eaten all the sausages.
Synopsis is as a kid he was abused by a MA instructor. He takes up Karate instead (As a defense mechanism), and moves into bouncing on doors in Coventry to push himself through his fear pyramid. He also runs his own dojo (animal days included, where anything goes), and ends up training with Chuck Norris. All told in a very matter-of-fact style, with a nice dollop of humour.
In answer to the question - depends on the person as well as the MA IMHO. Now I'm off to polish my katana and dominate the stairs in case an intruder gets past the claymores and angry badgers, now they have eaten all the sausages.
julian64 said:
This thread is priceless. I haven't laughed so much at any thread in recent memory.
Keep going because this thread is only a single poster away from being legendary.
I'm trying to remember to incorporate that sword/neck/severed head quote next time I need to roll out the PBCD phrase.Keep going because this thread is only a single poster away from being legendary.
Hoofy said:
julian64 said:
This thread is priceless. I haven't laughed so much at any thread in recent memory.
Keep going because this thread is only a single poster away from being legendary.
I'm trying to remember to incorporate that sword/neck/severed head quote next time I need to roll out the PBCD phrase.Keep going because this thread is only a single poster away from being legendary.
Don't forget to add that it was a post about the uselessness (street) of it, it was nothing to do with claiming 'hard' status or anything like that. This obviously spoils a good fake story but never mind.
On Sunday I said:
this training was also pointless
But fascinating.As the above sentiment demonstrates, the human interest angle is strong and the pisstake angle even stronger, so some background may give other PHers more fodder for the leg-end status claim...I ended up going along and learning about (useless but fascinating) sword techniques due to a women's magazine which Mrs TB(I) left lying around. It suggested that the sisterhood should try something new to gain new experiences at each 'decade birthday' i.e. 30, 40 etc and I decided this was a good idea for others to consider.
At the next relevant birthday I learned to fly light aircraft and the one after tied in with a leaflet arriving through the door from a local bushido school of Karate and Aikido Te. The marketing blurb explained that bushido referred to 'the way of the warrior' or some such phrase but didn't say it was samurai and that if you joined up you'd spend half the time learning the usual locks, throws and strikes - strikes making it Aikido Te rather than Aikido, so they said - and half the time learning how to wield a samuria sword.
This last bit was a surprise but given the whole idea was to try something new, I kept going and that's how I learned the fascinating and pisstakeworthy technique (cut) which is giving this thread so much value. The people giving the training knew what they were about, there was the expected fastidious attention to discipline as well as technique, and after so many years it has now provided entertainment value to untold numbers of PHers. Excellent.
It's surprising that with the number of people on PH there's nobody on the thread with similar experience of a bushido MA school but that's life.
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