Karate experts - are they really 'hard'?

[Cob1]

Boring_Chris said:

Cob1 said:

... wearing tweed jacket & brogues, after 6 pints & a rather nice bottle of port...

Tweed jacket and brogues?

Fight me.

I bet you wear man made fibres and want to own a large dog.

Be warned, I am a PBCD - and I wear red trousers.

[turbobloke]

Cob1 said:

Be warned, I am a PBCD - and I wear red trousers.

OK, which one

PBCD Piroxicam-Beta-Cyclodextrin
PBCD Packed Binary Coded Decimal
PBCD Planning and the Black Community Division
PBCD Palm Beach Creative Development

[Hoofy]

battered said:

Ayahuasca said:

What would the skilled boxer do if, when he moves forward and into, his knee gets stomp kicked and possibly broken, and he then gets a spinning elbow strike to the head?

The skilled boxer wouldn't be standing still and allowing the karate expert to stamp on his knee or use his elbows. Would the karate expert still remember how to do those things if his head were being beaten back and forth? You can't say which one is going to be more successful. As others say it is going to come down to aggression. If either one strolls in with a half hearted approach he'll get battered, and fights are won by people who wade in with maximum aggression from the word go. These are also the people who are charged with GBH.

The karate expert is also moving around. I am surprised that since both parties are moving around, anyone gets hit inside a ring.

[Veeayt]

Evanivitch said:

DoubleSix said:

In the context of what was asked by the OP I would argue a skilled boxer would nullify a karate practioners kicks by moving forward and into the opponent, the luxury of space is rarely available in a brawl ime.

I've seen a couple of boxers have their legs kicked out from under them in the first throws of a fight, and then it's a question whether it turns into a grapple on the ground or the standing party legs it.

Remember the fight between Mohammad Ali and Antonio Inoki, which was a mess of Ali been afraid for his legs, and Inoki lying on the floor all the time cause he was afraid to lose his face.

[mph999]

DoubleSix said:

Hoofy said:

DoubleSix said:

I'm sure the internet will cater for either side of the argument.

But I remain distinctly underwhelmed but what I just saw of Mr Brennan. It's just so contained, so rules based - and effective against an opponent following those rules.

Same as in a boxing ring, presumably.

Not really. You take an undefended blow in a boxing ring and you'll be out cold.

These karate blows are all about making contact not making an impact. Points don't mean prizes in a real brawl.

Well, yes - it's controlled as he's fighting as a sport. I posted the clip as a demonstration of his speed and accuracy.

[hornetrider]

So disappointed I've got through the whole thread and no mention of the hardest guy on youtube, Master Wong, Wing Chun Master. He destroys boxers on his vids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp9-jKO_K98

[tuscaneer]

hornetrider said:

So disappointed I've got through the whole thread and no mention of the hardest guy on youtube, Master Wong, Wing Chun Master. He destroys boxers on his vids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp9-jKO_K98

fkin hell....i've watched some daft vids on youtube before but.....

...if the guy with the gloves was throwing at anything other than "demo" speed without moving his feet then that silly elbow block just wouldn't work. the boxer has only got to side shift and turn the jab into a lead hook and wing chun man is hit.

also, i certainly can't ever remember standing stationary and throwing a straight jab that's blocked then throwing the back hand WITHOUT ANY LATERAL MOVEMENT AT ALL at exactly the same spot without expecting another block.....

it seems the the "boxer" in this video hasn't read up about shifting from head to body either.

that raised elbow block is just begging for a lead hook downstairs off the jab or a straight back hand to the mid section.....this wing chun guy, man....this isn't my type of guy



i think a lot of the problem with all this stuff is that it isn't fluid and reactive.the art is in reading what the other guy's next move is going to be then countering it....or making him think that you are going to do one thing then do something else to draw open the target and strike.

Edited by tuscaneer on Tuesday 21st March 13:12

[ColdoRS]

I train BJJ, one of the many things I rate it for is that you can (and do) go 100% when sparring, actively trying to submit the opponent. Not many other ma's let you go that hard, certainly not every session.

That said, even being somewhat skilled in jiu jitsu, I'm still very reluctant to get into a 'real' fight with anyone. It blows my mind that people want to get into a street fight, with no skills at all.

BJJ probably isn't the best marital art for a street fight, i wouldn't fancy pulling guard on a wetherspoons floor or trying a flying arm bar on a pavement. I would however feel massively more comfortable in a street fight, or if i was attacked. Knowing that if i can close the distance and take the guy down, there's a chance i could subdue and/or restrain him until help arrived. Or put him to sleep if he's hell bent on killing me.

Now, if I'd also cross trained Muay Thai or boxing like a handful of the killers at my gym, I'd probably feel supremely comfortable in 99% of un-armed combat situations. I don't though, so I'll stick to talking my way out of it or legging it.

Edited by ColdoRS on Tuesday 21st March 14:43

[Hoofy]

hornetrider said:

So disappointed I've got through the whole thread and no mention of the hardest guy on youtube, Master Wong, Wing Chun Master. He destroys boxers on his vids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp9-jKO_K98

I love his style. "Can't grab no more titty"

I suppose the handy thing about learning boxing is that most people don't tend to keep their guard up unless they're trained so it's like an open goal.

[J4CKO]

I just think its a massive amount of faff for the times you will use it, if you are doing it just for self defence.

I had some twunt in the pub offering me out, I just explained we would end up on the floor, get barred and the Police would come and in the morning we would have to think about court, explaining it to the wife etc, and by some miracle, one of us may actually hurt the other.

I used to know a guy, a mate of a mate who used to love it when it kicked off, dying to show his kickboxing skills, reminded me of this,

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/biggest...

One lad I knew that got bullied at school got into various Martial Arts after leaving school, started wearing muscle vests and got a Rottweiler.

Fair enough if you do it for the sport, the discipline, the exercise but I think there are a lot of terrible people out there who do stuff just so they can wheel out their skills occasionally and batter someone.

How often will a bloke who is no longer out clubbing and lives in a decent area get into a full on punch up ?

[robsa]

Interesting that nobody so far has mentioned simply having bottle.... let's face it, most of us don't want to keenly get involved in a street fight with some wuffian on the way to Greggs with the missus on a Saturday morning, do we? Sort of spoils the weekend. And many of the people I know who do MA would likely cack themselves if confronted by the ones who like a good fight as part of weekend fun (generally, unsurprisingly, scaffolders, rig workers and manual workers etc). The whole 'flight or fight' thing is very powerful, and until you recognise it as not being fear but adrenaline flooding your body to prepare you for a good old scrap, you're more likely to back down like any sane and reasonable human being would. But often, merely showing a keenness to 'get involved' will avoid further aggs (not me mind, I'd throw the missus at them and run and hide in the boot of my car).

[tuscaneer]

ColdoRS said:

I train BJJ, one of the many things I rate it for is that you can (and do) go 100% when sparring, actively trying to submit the opponent. Not many other ma's let you go that hard, certainly not every session.

That said, even being somewhat skilled in jiu jitsu, I'm still very reluctant to get into a 'real' fight with anyone. It blows my mind that people want to get into a street fight, with no skills at all.

Anyway, BJJ propbably isn't the best marital art for a street fight, i wouldn't fancy pulling guard on a wetherspoons floor or trying a flying arm bar on a pavement. I would however feel massively more comfortable in a street fight, or if i was attacked. Knowing that if i can close the distance and take the guy down, there's a chance i could subdue and/or restrain him until help arrived. Or put him to sleep if he's hell bent on killing me.

Now, if I'd also cross trained Muay Thai or boxing like a handful of the killers at my gym, I'd probably feel supremely comfortable in 99% of un-armed combat situations. I don't though, so I'll stick to talking my way out of it or legging it.

tried bjj after 15 years of boxing....god it felt so wrong!!....i want everything at arms length and instinctively i'm a back foot counterpuncher to maintain my distance and give me room to pivot and position the other guy.....spent a few weeks rolling round on the floor with big sweaty fellas lying on top of me and quickly realized that mt preference was the striking side of things...did muay thai for a while and quite enjoyed it but my instinct is always as a boxer and the thai was actually negatively impacting on my boxing..

also done a bit of fencing which was superb. as a southpaw boxer i'm actually the right way round holding an epee or foil ( didn't stick at it long enough to get too involved the with sabre)....got involved in that because all the pioneers of modern boxing like broughton and figg back in the 1700's were all master fencers as well as boxers and i wanted to immerse myself further in the roots of the sport

Edited by tuscaneer on Tuesday 21st March 13:02

[FredClogs]

tuscaneer said:

tried bjj after 15 years of boxing....god it felt so wrong!!....i want everything at arms length and instinctively i'm a back foot counterpuncher to maintain my distance and give me room to pivot and position the other guy.....spent a few weeks rolling round on the floor with big sweaty fellas lying on top of me and quickly realized that mt preference was the striking side of things...did muay thai for a while and quite enjoyed it but my instinct is always as a boxer and the thai was actually negatively impacting on my boxing..

also done a bit of fencing which was superb. as a southpaw boxer i'm actually the right way round holding an epee or foil ( didn't stick at it long enough to get too involved the with sabre)....got involved in that because all the pioneers of modern boxing like broughton and figg back in the 1700's were all master fencers as well as boxers and i wanted to immerse myself further in the roots of the sport

Edited by tuscaneer on Tuesday 21st March 13:02

Come on, give us a cuddle, you know you want to you

The wing chun guy demonstrates the clear distinction between classic learned techniques and how that breaks down in sport. Wing Chun is a very good defensive skill and there are several boxers who use a cross guard sort of defense (Joe Frazier being the most well known) which isn't a million miles from wing chun, a lot of boxers who work well on the inside are also using much of the same movement and use of the elbows to defend and in Mhuy Thai attack.

The thing is in a street fight with someone who thinks he can ko anyone with one shot all martial arts technique works, but that's not how it goes down in sports, they move, string combinations together and don't just stop hanging their shot out in mid air and wait to be karate chopped. For all Master Wongs rhetoric on Youtube I've yet to see him actually go to a boxing gym and spar someone half decent.

Since the advent of the UFC and MMA all this conversation is/should be redundant, we do know what happens when men fight in their underpants with very few rules now, it's not a mystery anymore, there's very little to really talk about, the evidence has been provided.

[Bandit110]

Just thought I'd drop my favourite clip right here, If I'm ever approached then this will be in my mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twhr5fz6C3g&in...

[tuscaneer]

FredClogs said:

Come on, give us a cuddle, you know you want to you

The wing chun guy demonstrates the clear distinction between classic learned techniques and how that breaks down in sport. Wing Chun is a very good defensive skill and there are several boxers who use a cross guard sort of defense (Joe Frazier being the most well known) which isn't a million miles from wing chun, a lot of boxers who work well on the inside are also using much of the same movement and use of the elbows to defend and in Mhuy Thai attack.

The thing is in a street fight with someone who thinks he can ko anyone with one shot all martial arts technique works, but that's not how it goes down in sports, they move, string combinations together and don't just stop hanging their shot out in mid air and wait to be karate chopped. For all Master Wongs rhetoric on Youtube I've yet to see him actually go to a boxing gym and spar someone half decent.

Since the advent of the UFC and MMA all this conversation is/should be redundant, we do know what happens when men fight in their underpants with very few rules now, it's not a mystery anymore, there's very little to really talk about, the evidence has been provided.

oh go on then!!.....

i distinctly remember the day i stopped bjj. it was when driving home after another less than enjoyable session and i could smell arse.not a lot of arse. just enough for me to notice....wound down the window and got home. once home i could smell it again.....i located the smell at the FRONT of my shorts on the left leg.....it was the sweaty arse smell from the chap i had been rolling round on the floor with.no thank you

best cross arm defence i've seen was the genius that was archie moore ....but he certainly never had his elbow protruding out from his torso at right angles like that wing chun dude!!....


i've enjoyed reading some of the crazy st that's been written in the last 10 pages... but let's all get real.....when you are confronted in any environment other than a ring with gloves, gummy and headgurd the best thing to do if it gets a bit lairy is to jab your way out of it.no back hands, nothing to leave you open, just tuck up and throw accurate jabs...it won't take long to discourage the gentleman assaulting you.....then get off and hope there's no CCTV

however, who is daft enough to get into fights out in public??? fking dheads if you ask me.....too many variables, too much risk to your own wellbeing and too great a risk of a criminal record. nah, think i'll stick to the gentlemanly conduct of rules and a ring.

[tuscaneer]

Bandit110 said:

Just thought I'd drop my favourite clip right here, If I'm ever approached then this will be in my mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twhr5fz6C3g&in...

nice ko that, but that guy on the floor could easily have died. in the right or in the wrong if that had gone badly one guy would be dead for nothing and another guy would be looking at decades in prison..........

i used to work with a guy who's son was eating food in a pub with his missus and was goaded and attacked by a pissed up bloke. he had enough then popped him. guy hit his head on a bar stool and died...the guy who was minding his own business ended up going to prison and the antagonist died as a result of beeing pissed and lairy...ahole?? yes...deserved to die??..no...

2 lives ruined for nothing

[Hoofy]

tuscaneer said:

tried bjj after 15 years of boxing....god it felt so wrong!!....i want everything at arms length and instinctively i'm a back foot counterpuncher to maintain my distance and give me room to pivot and position the other guy.....spent a few weeks rolling round on the floor with big sweaty fellas lying on top of me and quickly realized that mt preference was the striking side of things...

Interesting that you post this. I mainly did traditional kung fu stuff as a teen and young adult, all flashy kicks and so on at distance, useless in the street obviously, but a lot of fun, then started focusing on more street oriented stuff - hated it at first, everyone in your personal space. You get used to it, mind, or you start fighting like a hairdresser.

[J4CKO]

I think that a good way to end up in trouble is being very tall or muscled, a lot of guys like that I have known have been targeted, one specifically was a young IT contractor at GMP, 6 ft 5, into his training and properly, massively broad, full on triangle on legs, got battered in Ibiza, I mean properly battered, i.e. life changing injuries, parent flying over to be at bedside, touch and go type stuff, hadnt said boo to a goose, barely drank, was singled out because of his looks as a challenge I guess.

A few BBers I used to know said that they got the odd agro from blokes that felt threatened and young celebs/footballers have to be careful as it is easy to get some prick snot you one for the glory.

So, best to not stand out if you want to avoid agro.

I got punched for having a Golf GTI back in 1990 outside a chippy, in broad daylight, had I been on foot or in a shed the scrotes wouldnt have batted an eyelid, but they didnt like someone their age having a nice car when four of them were crammed into a stty old orange Mini, the Mini in this case took our revenge, never had chips and gravy shoved in my face, then punched, how Mancunian is that !

[tuscaneer]

Hoofy said:

Interesting that you post this. I mainly did traditional kung fu stuff as a teen and young adult, all flashy kicks and so on at distance, useless in the street obviously, but a lot of fun, then started focusing on more street oriented stuff - hated it at first, everyone in your personal space. You get used to it, mind, or you start fighting like a hairdresser.

my personal experience with the guys i was training with was that their boxing was lacking so yeah, force me to get on the floor and then get me to try to hip escape fine.....but now try to get me to the ground while i'm popping jabs and pivoting hooks at their head while side stepping them rushing in and it was a different story.....arms length distance control is key for me but if i have to stop throwing punches and voluntarily get on the floor to allow someone to try and get me in an arm bar or americana....well, what's the point really??....for me and my experiences at least.

obviously i was a raw novice at the rolling but i just didn't get the satisfaction from it like i do with a good technical spar in boxing which is why every time i've tried something different i ultimately always go back to what i know

[tuscaneer]

J4CKO said:

I think that a good way to end up in trouble is being very tall or muscled, a lot of guys like that I have known have been targeted, one specifically was a young IT contractor at GMP, 6 ft 5, into his training and properly, massively broad, full on triangle on legs, got battered in Ibiza, I mean properly battered, i.e. life changing injuries, parent flying over to be at bedside, touch and go type stuff, hadnt said boo to a goose, barely drank, was singled out because of his looks as a challenge I guess.

A few BBers I used to know said that they got the odd agro from blokes that felt threatened and young celebs/footballers have to be careful as it is easy to get some prick snot you one for the glory.

So, best to not stand out if you want to avoid agro.

I got punched for having a Golf GTI back in 1990 outside a chippy, in broad daylight, had I been on foot or in a shed the scrotes wouldnt have batted an eyelid, but they didnt like someone their age having a nice car when four of them were crammed into a stty old orange Mini, the Mini in this case took our revenge, never had chips and gravy shoved in my face, then punched, how Mancunian is that !

i try to hold my temper in all situations but a few years ago a couple of scallies were behind me at the lights and didn't like the fact i was driving a chimera....they showed their displeasure by the driver half climbing out of his car and spitting on my car.....my elastic band stretches quite far but occasionally it might snap

didn't even think about it, i just flew at them...don't know what i might have done but we'll never find out as the shock of me getting out of the car proper mad made him go round me screeching tyres( and nearly hitting me in the process) and speeding off. only when i got back in the car trembling with rage did i realize how fking monumentally stupid it was to do what i did..




edited to add......actually a few weeks back a lad in work did me proper on that prank call thingy....i got an aural assault off a guy who was accusing me of stealing his wifi...he just wouldn't listen to me (of course not, he was a recording!!!) and i just blew my top , called him a sthouse and asked him to come out front of the building to settle it proper



.......st, i think i need a bit of anger management!!!....

Edited by tuscaneer on Tuesday 21st March 14:31