Karate experts - are they really 'hard'?
Discussion
Hoofy said:
You can easily simulate a real knife fight. Take two rulers, dip them in a pot of red paint. Fight a friend. See if either of you are clean after a couple of seconds.
I was going to suggest that, as I saw it in another old movie once, about military training. The old crew chief challenged the young guns to a pretend knife fight, and showed them, in second, just how many cuts he had put on them.I saw a 'drinking acquaintance' of mine get threatened by a knife carrying thug in the Philippines. I was very surprised when my friend calmly stepped back and quickly slipped off his flip flops, put them on his hands, and squared up to the knife wielding prat.
No blows were exchanged, the knife wielding prat backed off, but I realised then I didn't know my drinking buddy as well as I thought I did. Best not to ask too many questions of fellow drunkards in that part of the world.
Another British guy I struck up friendship with over all night beering had served time for murdering his wife. He had finally been released, because of evidence flaws, but none of us ever believed he was actually innocent. Apparently he sold his story to News Of The World for a large sum of money.
If a knife is involved, run like a fast thing, preferably away from it.
To those who have done knife defence, it's almost impossible to not get caught. If the person with the knife knows 'how' to use it you're probably dead.
If someone doesn't know and just makes a single attack at a time, then you have a chance to block hopefully minimising any damage to yourself - a slashed arm is better than a knife sticking out of your chest.
There was a story in the paper years back of a chap who got attacked at a cash machine by a chap with a knife. Unfortunately for the attacker the 'victim' was an ex-Gerkha. He did successfully fend off multiple attacks and restrained the attacker, then realised he had a knife sticking out his arm ... Still, he probably saved his own life and I believed recovered without any lasting damage. Despite the multiple attempts, it was his only injury.
To those who have done knife defence, it's almost impossible to not get caught. If the person with the knife knows 'how' to use it you're probably dead.
If someone doesn't know and just makes a single attack at a time, then you have a chance to block hopefully minimising any damage to yourself - a slashed arm is better than a knife sticking out of your chest.
There was a story in the paper years back of a chap who got attacked at a cash machine by a chap with a knife. Unfortunately for the attacker the 'victim' was an ex-Gerkha. He did successfully fend off multiple attacks and restrained the attacker, then realised he had a knife sticking out his arm ... Still, he probably saved his own life and I believed recovered without any lasting damage. Despite the multiple attempts, it was his only injury.
Edited by mph999 on Wednesday 29th March 12:41
Look for the documentary 'surviving edged weapons' on YouTube. Old but good.
Here's a taster, NSFW obvs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYwd0Wus5Ik
And who said don't bring a knife to a gun fight. This is a Police training video so with recent events in mind it's quite relevant in relation to those who have said the Police should be armed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js0haocH4-o
Here's a taster, NSFW obvs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYwd0Wus5Ik
And who said don't bring a knife to a gun fight. This is a Police training video so with recent events in mind it's quite relevant in relation to those who have said the Police should be armed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js0haocH4-o
Edited by Jonmx on Wednesday 29th March 17:07
Hoofy said:
Agree with the running away from a knife bit!
Just thing how many times you hear about a youth getting stabbed and dying thanks to a gang fight - I doubt any of them "know" how to use a knife.
Back in 1989 I was in a wine bar in my home town, got drunk, went home. Walking to the pub for a Sunday lunch session I noticed the wine bar, the "Brahms and Liszt" in Stafford, was cordoned off with with police tape.Just thing how many times you hear about a youth getting stabbed and dying thanks to a gang fight - I doubt any of them "know" how to use a knife.
Turns out two young uns had got into it after closing time, squared up outside, someone handed one a knife and he started to wave it around, and the other lunged forward.....straight into his heart, dead on the spot.
The guy who was convicted of murder was 18 years old. What a start to life.
Jonmx said:
And who said don't bring a knife to a gun fight. This is a Police training video so with recent events in mind it's quite relevant in relation to those who have said the Police should be armed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js0haocH4-o
In the context of whether karate makes you hard or a better fighter, the police video is interesting. 'Fights' as in 'duels' like you see in the movies or on World Star very rarely happen and if you do get to that situation it is mostly likely to be your ego that got you there. You really must have done something wrong to have not been able to get out of there or deal with it before it escalated to bouncing around in front of each other. If somebody has the time realise that it is 'fight on' (
) and had time to get their phone out to record it, you had the chance to get out of there yourself. This is why 'Is a boxer better than a whatever...' argument is actually a bit pointless, fun though it is.The police video is about how they reacted to violence; the fact that they couldn't get their gun out and hit the target in time. The key to the video and self defence is to learn how to recognise, understand and deal with confrontation so you can be more proactive than reactive to get yourself out of there. The 'technique' the police video shows you is not how to get a black belt in shooting people. It is simply to try and get 21ft away from somebody. That is the (soft) technique, not the fancy stuff.
The same applies to 'reality'. You can learn as many fancy karate/boxing/krav techniques as you like but if you do not have the softer 'technique' (the metaphoric equivalent of the 21 ft rule) to understand and deal with violence/confrontation then it all becomes a bit of a moot point.
I linked to a video a few pages back that showed how a BBC reporter with a black belt in karate and no understanding of confrontation reacted differently to the cop who wasn't a karate expert but did have the soft technique (albeit applied rather hard!) to understand violence. Both were dealing with the same assailant, just in very different ways.
I'll stop there before I geek out about Hicks Law and OODA loops as I'll only dig a hole
te ?
A 'karate expert' will be fitter, faster, better balanced and better coordinated than the average pub brawler. Most untrained fighters wade in with haymaker punches that might as well have a man with a red flag walking in front of them.
But the best defence is without doubt a trained attack ferret. You can keep it in your pocket, and when you get into a situation, you just unleash the ferret which races up your opponents trousers and bites off his testicles.
But the best defence is without doubt a trained attack ferret. You can keep it in your pocket, and when you get into a situation, you just unleash the ferret which races up your opponents trousers and bites off his testicles.
Nanook said:
Doesn't sound like murder to me.
Fighting in the street, with a knife in his hand, I doubt he had a good defence such as 'it was an accident, yer honour'.It was nearly 30 years ago so I can't find any sort of records of his sentence, but I assume he would be out and about and been carrying on with life for a good ten or fifteen years by now. I dread to think what sort of a start in life that would be though.
ben5575 said:
In the context of whether karate makes you hard or a better fighter, the police video is interesting. 'Fights' as in 'duels' like you see in the movies or on World Star very rarely happen and if you do get to that situation it is mostly likely to be your ego that got you there. You really must have done something wrong to have not been able to get out of there or deal with it before it escalated to bouncing around in front of each other. If somebody has the time realise that it is 'fight on' ( ) and had time to get their phone out to record it, you had the chance to get out of there yourself. This is why 'Is a boxer better than a whatever...' argument is actually a bit pointless, fun though it is.
I think that this is the best statement made on this thread so far. ) and had time to get their phone out to record it, you had the chance to get out of there yourself. This is why 'Is a boxer better than a whatever...' argument is actually a bit pointless, fun though it is.Fighting/self defense/being hard/martial arts are four different things.
The vast majority of people who get assulted in "fights" just didnt realise they were in a fight until it was too late and they are already hurt.
Geoff Thompson, propably the formost "self defense" expert in the UK (quite a small, average looking guy). In his book "watch my back" he stated (I forget the figure) that hes the winner of 100's of street fights, but if you read what actually happends, he wants someone to leave his club/pub, they say no, Mr Thompson punches them on the jaw and they are KO'd.....is that a fight?
Liokault said:
Geoff Thompson, propably the formost "self defense" expert in the UK (quite a small, average looking guy). In his book "watch my back" he stated (I forget the figure) that hes the winner of 100's of street fights, but if you read what actually happends, he wants someone to leave his club/pub, they say no, Mr Thompson punches them on the jaw and they are KO'd.....is that a fight?
I read that book a while back, pretty interesting. He does have a somewhat torrid start to life so I can see why he has some emotional baggage onboard. King Herald said:
Liokault said:
Geoff Thompson, propably the formost "self defense" expert in the UK (quite a small, average looking guy). In his book "watch my back" he stated (I forget the figure) that hes the winner of 100's of street fights, but if you read what actually happends, he wants someone to leave his club/pub, they say no, Mr Thompson punches them on the jaw and they are KO'd.....is that a fight?
I read that book a while back, pretty interesting. He does have a somewhat torrid start to life so I can see why he has some emotional baggage onboard. What I found really interesting was his bit about not being someone you would want to get into a fight with. He turned himself from a average height/build normal looking guy into a mentally deranged psychopath that you don’t want to be in the same room as, let alone pick as a victim, in seconds.
Liokault said:
Fighting/self defense/being hard/martial arts are four different things.
The vast majority of people who get assulted in "fights" just didnt realise they were in a fight until it was too late and they are already hurt.
Geoff Thompson, propably the formost "self defense" expert in the UK (quite a small, average looking guy). In his book "watch my back" he stated (I forget the figure) that hes the winner of 100's of street fights, but if you read what actually happends, he wants someone to leave his club/pub, they say no, Mr Thompson punches them on the jaw and they are KO'd.....is that a fight?
Ha well, to be fair he spends most of his time verbally trying to persuade them to leave ('The Fence'), but they make for less interesting reading. If it does escalate to violence then he tends to hit them pre emptively. I haven't trained with Geoff directly but I have his colleague Peter Consterdine.The vast majority of people who get assulted in "fights" just didnt realise they were in a fight until it was too late and they are already hurt.
Geoff Thompson, propably the formost "self defense" expert in the UK (quite a small, average looking guy). In his book "watch my back" he stated (I forget the figure) that hes the winner of 100's of street fights, but if you read what actually happends, he wants someone to leave his club/pub, they say no, Mr Thompson punches them on the jaw and they are KO'd.....is that a fight?
If you can put up with the fact that this is an excerpt from an old and very hammy ITV documentary (so please view as such), this is Geoff talking about this violence. Pre emptive striking from 4.20 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQbHgD65_8E . Looks pretty effective to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgFNrVg-bL0
Compilation of various Martial Arts in real street fights.
On balance, it seems that MA training stands one in good stead (not so sure about the BJJ mind).
Compilation of various Martial Arts in real street fights.
On balance, it seems that MA training stands one in good stead (not so sure about the BJJ mind).
This is an exceptionally dull conversation. It's like asking whether a footballer or a cricketer would win a running race. Or asking if a footballer could really run over a distance. The answer is "probably better than an untrained person" but the fact is that a naturally athletic untrained person could possibly outrun an unfit footballer.
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