Listed building consent
Discussion
Hello guys, long time no post, a couple of fairly unpleasant and busy years have passed since I was properly here last, but life has turned around and we can start enjoying the fruits of our labour now.
We bought a nice little cottage, sadly (well it is and isn't one thing we loved was the period features) it's a grade 2 listed, which makes life harder for the renovation although thankfully we want to keep most of it as it should be anyway (read windows etc.) so no great battles there, we have a hideous 90's bathroom to remove which involves a stud wall coming out but again not anticipating a big fight with the council.
Where we do have a potential concern is the garage, it was obviously not originally built as a garage (not many cars around 1800ish) it's been built from 2 main walls with a third added later from bits and then a wooden front and a horrible tin roof all added at different times, as you can imagine it's ugly, doesn't function too well and has little historical value, of more of a sticking point are the outhouses built either side of it (and attached) which are older and do have some value, I won't bore you with our plans but does anyone have any guidance to dealing with the council who are coming Friday for a preliminary site meeting?
The chap who's coming out sounds a nice guy but of course has a job to do, we don't want to build a super modern building or anything, it will be in keeping with and keep most of what's already there just make it more functional and safe, I'm assuming he will be looking at impact to neighbours, impact to historical value and general keeping the character as much as anything else?
Anyone else been through this?
We bought a nice little cottage, sadly (well it is and isn't one thing we loved was the period features) it's a grade 2 listed, which makes life harder for the renovation although thankfully we want to keep most of it as it should be anyway (read windows etc.) so no great battles there, we have a hideous 90's bathroom to remove which involves a stud wall coming out but again not anticipating a big fight with the council.
Where we do have a potential concern is the garage, it was obviously not originally built as a garage (not many cars around 1800ish) it's been built from 2 main walls with a third added later from bits and then a wooden front and a horrible tin roof all added at different times, as you can imagine it's ugly, doesn't function too well and has little historical value, of more of a sticking point are the outhouses built either side of it (and attached) which are older and do have some value, I won't bore you with our plans but does anyone have any guidance to dealing with the council who are coming Friday for a preliminary site meeting?
The chap who's coming out sounds a nice guy but of course has a job to do, we don't want to build a super modern building or anything, it will be in keeping with and keep most of what's already there just make it more functional and safe, I'm assuming he will be looking at impact to neighbours, impact to historical value and general keeping the character as much as anything else?
Anyone else been through this?
Hopefully you've got someone from the Historic Environment team (or whatever your council calls it) coming round rather than just a general planning bod?
Generally I've found them very helpful. Keen to find ways of making older buildings useful and relevant rather than letting them fall into disrepair.
Generally I've found them very helpful. Keen to find ways of making older buildings useful and relevant rather than letting them fall into disrepair.
As above, if it's a generic planner you have coming round I'd cancel the appointment as it will be of little use at this stage.
The heritage chap for your area would be far better.
If you have no experience of dealing with these things I would strongly advocate getting an architect who has, even for relatively simple jobs. Preferably one who has worked in your area and whose work you can reference. It will make life a LOT simpler and take much of the emotion out of the equation (at least in dealings with the heritage people - let them do that).
If you have a heritage chap coming round on Friday, and haven't engaged an architect, I'd talk in general terms and get him to let you know the boundaries of what could possibly be done. Try and avoid "we want"/"we're going to" and work more in terms of "we'd like". But if this is the first meeting, try and get him to do much of the talking. And get him onside about the monstrosity built in the 90s and that you want to keep the charm of the place etc.
Did the 90s version have planning permission? And do any of the outbuildings feature in the listing details?
If you have an architect engaged, let him do the talking with you present and only interject if asked or if he's going way off base
The heritage chap for your area would be far better.
If you have no experience of dealing with these things I would strongly advocate getting an architect who has, even for relatively simple jobs. Preferably one who has worked in your area and whose work you can reference. It will make life a LOT simpler and take much of the emotion out of the equation (at least in dealings with the heritage people - let them do that).
If you have a heritage chap coming round on Friday, and haven't engaged an architect, I'd talk in general terms and get him to let you know the boundaries of what could possibly be done. Try and avoid "we want"/"we're going to" and work more in terms of "we'd like". But if this is the first meeting, try and get him to do much of the talking. And get him onside about the monstrosity built in the 90s and that you want to keep the charm of the place etc.
Did the 90s version have planning permission? And do any of the outbuildings feature in the listing details?
If you have an architect engaged, let him do the talking with you present and only interject if asked or if he's going way off base
The 'listed buildings ' people at the council ( usually called 'Conservation Officers') can fall into two camps: pedantic a
holes or sensible/realistic!
The first one we had 15 years ago fell into the former camp and thought everything should be locked in a 1790 timewarp with zero tolerance. He didn't differentiate between a 'basic' Grade II cottage only listed because its old or a Grade I palace of national interest. His view was zero modifications and everything had to be maintained to exactly the way it was originally built (he'd probably have banned inside toilets, electric lights etc if he'd been around at the time they were installed!). Net result was his bigotry was counter-productive as we had to avoid getting him involved and did things behind his back.
Luckily original ahole left and was replaced by a perfectly sane, sensible and realistic individual who is a pleasure to work with. New guy will talk sensibly about what is good and acceptable, understands the constraints of modern living in an old house and that things do have to move on. Hopefully you'll get one like him, if so talk sensibly, ask his advice and recommendations and I'm sure he'll be happy for you to do something which improves the property.
holes or sensible/realistic! The first one we had 15 years ago fell into the former camp and thought everything should be locked in a 1790 timewarp with zero tolerance. He didn't differentiate between a 'basic' Grade II cottage only listed because its old or a Grade I palace of national interest. His view was zero modifications and everything had to be maintained to exactly the way it was originally built (he'd probably have banned inside toilets, electric lights etc if he'd been around at the time they were installed!). Net result was his bigotry was counter-productive as we had to avoid getting him involved and did things behind his back.
Luckily original a
hole left and was replaced by a perfectly sane, sensible and realistic individual who is a pleasure to work with. New guy will talk sensibly about what is good and acceptable, understands the constraints of modern living in an old house and that things do have to move on. Hopefully you'll get one like him, if so talk sensibly, ask his advice and recommendations and I'm sure he'll be happy for you to do something which improves the property.dmsims said:
Do as much research as possible on it's original use / look
If you can return it to that (or similar) - they love that
Was it included when listed ?
Isn't everything within the curtilage included when listed irrespective of when it was installed/changed/added? Ours list a round window with radiating glazing bars which turns out was a piece of thick glass with silicon painted black. Paid £600 to get a replacement frame made in oak (expensive as its round) with similar radiating layout done in wavy glass. When we got a photo from the mid 60's and there isn't even a window there we weren't too happy, but it does let some light into the stairwell.If you can return it to that (or similar) - they love that
Was it included when listed ?
FFG
Yes luckily it is the consent chap not a general bod from the council, he sounds pretty sensible on the phone, we discussed a fairly extreme job and he didn't recoil in horror so hopefully we can work together, thankfully most of the work we are fairly flexible on, we have a couple of goals and there are multiple ways to achieve them (one major goal is at present the neighbour has access across our garden, we want to move a pack of out buildings allowing the neighbour to access through their own gate and not through our garden, but there are multiple ways of providing that access as the footprint of buildings is big enough to absorb multiple options).
We have a family member who will be doing all our plans so that's a big saving cost wise, but also helps as they do property development as well as being an architect so once we have guidelines we can work with them to get what we actually want.
I suspect when the chap comes round some bits will have been done without permission including potentially the god awful bathroom, on the positive side next door did a full remodel including knocking walls out and got retrospective permission when they came to sell, which suggests they as a department are sensible and generally we want to get back to how the house should look obviously. I'm just hoping I can come out of it with my double garage still!
We have a family member who will be doing all our plans so that's a big saving cost wise, but also helps as they do property development as well as being an architect so once we have guidelines we can work with them to get what we actually want.
I suspect when the chap comes round some bits will have been done without permission including potentially the god awful bathroom, on the positive side next door did a full remodel including knocking walls out and got retrospective permission when they came to sell, which suggests they as a department are sensible and generally we want to get back to how the house should look obviously. I'm just hoping I can come out of it with my double garage still!
As has been said, everything about the property is listed. Conservation Officers have a lot of power in the process of gaining consent to alter listed buildings and planning permission. You need to work with these people and getting into a battle with them is pointless.
They are usually keen on 'telling the story' of the building, so they often want to hold on to features that are not period as they are an authentic part of the buildings history. For example, I once converted a 300 year old building that had a 1960's lift with books glued to the walls to replicate a library. They would not allow the lift to be replaced and we had to refurbish it, including sorting out the tatty books.
They will probably want the new garage to replicate the style and age of the existing one rather than a faux version designed to blend in with the original building.
All a bit counter intuitive, but if you listen and go along with what is requested then you can usually get what you need.
They are usually keen on 'telling the story' of the building, so they often want to hold on to features that are not period as they are an authentic part of the buildings history. For example, I once converted a 300 year old building that had a 1960's lift with books glued to the walls to replicate a library. They would not allow the lift to be replaced and we had to refurbish it, including sorting out the tatty books.
They will probably want the new garage to replicate the style and age of the existing one rather than a faux version designed to blend in with the original building.
All a bit counter intuitive, but if you listen and go along with what is requested then you can usually get what you need.
I have just submitted a "change of use from meeting rooms to two No. residential properties" on a Grade II listed building.
I got the conservation on board as early as I could and he was very pro active in assisting what could be done and what couldn't been done. He even offered to accept certain fireplaces to be relocated to other areas as long as they remained within the property. This is by no means the job done he explained get the application in and then we can start to discuss each item one by one. An other to note is THEY can over rule Building Control to protect the listing. Therefore in terms of sound/ heat fire resistance between floors every floor board will have to be numbered then lifted to allow the upgrade then replaced in the exact same location wherever possible using the same fixings!!!!! Any test/ trial holes carried out the spoil had to be bagged and tagged and left at that location for the conservation officer to see and if found neccessary taken away for testing.
Also having a "Historic Building Officer" not from the council but on your side is a great asset especially in justifying alterations.
This building dates to 1680.
As said above the listing also covers the setting of the building.
I took on another project yesterday where there is a Grade II Lime Kiln located undergound with only a small access which is not visible unless you know its there. The siting of a new dwelling will be difficult due to the affect on the setting of a listed building - even though you can't see it.
I got the conservation on board as early as I could and he was very pro active in assisting what could be done and what couldn't been done. He even offered to accept certain fireplaces to be relocated to other areas as long as they remained within the property. This is by no means the job done he explained get the application in and then we can start to discuss each item one by one. An other to note is THEY can over rule Building Control to protect the listing. Therefore in terms of sound/ heat fire resistance between floors every floor board will have to be numbered then lifted to allow the upgrade then replaced in the exact same location wherever possible using the same fixings!!!!! Any test/ trial holes carried out the spoil had to be bagged and tagged and left at that location for the conservation officer to see and if found neccessary taken away for testing.
Also having a "Historic Building Officer" not from the council but on your side is a great asset especially in justifying alterations.
This building dates to 1680.
As said above the listing also covers the setting of the building.
I took on another project yesterday where there is a Grade II Lime Kiln located undergound with only a small access which is not visible unless you know its there. The siting of a new dwelling will be difficult due to the affect on the setting of a listed building - even though you can't see it.
wildoliver said:
Hello guys, long time no post, a couple of fairly unpleasant and busy years have passed since I was properly here last, but life has turned around and we can start enjoying the fruits of our labour now.
We bought a nice little cottage, sadly (well it is and isn't one thing we loved was the period features) it's a grade 2 listed, which makes life harder for the renovation although thankfully we want to keep most of it as it should be anyway (read windows etc.) so no great battles there, we have a hideous 90's bathroom to remove which involves a stud wall coming out but again not anticipating a big fight with the council.
Where we do have a potential concern is the garage, it was obviously not originally built as a garage (not many cars around 1800ish) it's been built from 2 main walls with a third added later from bits and then a wooden front and a horrible tin roof all added at different times, as you can imagine it's ugly, doesn't function too well and has little historical value, of more of a sticking point are the outhouses built either side of it (and attached) which are older and do have some value, I won't bore you with our plans but does anyone have any guidance to dealing with the council who are coming Friday for a preliminary site meeting?
The chap who's coming out sounds a nice guy but of course has a job to do, we don't want to build a super modern building or anything, it will be in keeping with and keep most of what's already there just make it more functional and safe, I'm assuming he will be looking at impact to neighbours, impact to historical value and general keeping the character as much as anything else?
Anyone else been through this?
Yes: went through the same process last year on a g2 cottage in Suffolk. Terraced cottage; I wanted to demolish 1970's attached outhouse and replace with bigger single storey extension, just like everyone else had done. Planning woman and her conservation sidekick were really poor at their job and made lots of contradicting comments when on site. Luckily, my architect technician hired for the job corralled them beautifully and finally got agreement what we could apply for.We bought a nice little cottage, sadly (well it is and isn't one thing we loved was the period features) it's a grade 2 listed, which makes life harder for the renovation although thankfully we want to keep most of it as it should be anyway (read windows etc.) so no great battles there, we have a hideous 90's bathroom to remove which involves a stud wall coming out but again not anticipating a big fight with the council.
Where we do have a potential concern is the garage, it was obviously not originally built as a garage (not many cars around 1800ish) it's been built from 2 main walls with a third added later from bits and then a wooden front and a horrible tin roof all added at different times, as you can imagine it's ugly, doesn't function too well and has little historical value, of more of a sticking point are the outhouses built either side of it (and attached) which are older and do have some value, I won't bore you with our plans but does anyone have any guidance to dealing with the council who are coming Friday for a preliminary site meeting?
The chap who's coming out sounds a nice guy but of course has a job to do, we don't want to build a super modern building or anything, it will be in keeping with and keep most of what's already there just make it more functional and safe, I'm assuming he will be looking at impact to neighbours, impact to historical value and general keeping the character as much as anything else?
Anyone else been through this?
Lessons I learnt?
- evidencing other changes to listed buildings locally to your helps
- pushing the fact the building to demolish isn't original and harms/hinders the g2
- if you can, architect technician will suffice (and is indeed far cheaper and as good) as opposed to a fully blown architect
- propose benefits of new building; contrasting but complimenting g2 building
good luck!
Is your house also in a conservation area? If so, there may be a conservation society / committee who you could approach for advice. If this is the case, the council may lean heavily on them for guidance, so important to keep them onside and establish what they feel is important.
As above, conservation officer will be more concerned with the original appearance rather than what may be an inappropriate addition. Tread carefully where any proposed work could impact the original structure. Here's an extract from a heritage statement that my wife (who has spent 20 years in this field) put together for a consent order to remove an small addition on one of our properties:
Significance Statement
35 XXX Road is a significant heritage asset, a Grade II listed resource and a contributing building in the XYZ Conservation Area. The back of the property has been inappropriately altered in the past, including installation of the single storey porch (c. 1970) and installation of an improperly sited satellite dish.
Impact Assessment
Removal of the inappropriate (design and materials) single storey porch will have positive impact on the heritage character of the property. Removal of the porch will be a first step to returning the original heritage character to the ground floor rear of the property. We will also remove the inappropriate satellite dish, redundant aerials and trailing cables.
Mitigation
If the brickwork at the rear is damaged by removal of the porch or the satellite dish, it will be repaired using bricks to match the original and lime mortar. No further mitigation works will be required.
As above, conservation officer will be more concerned with the original appearance rather than what may be an inappropriate addition. Tread carefully where any proposed work could impact the original structure. Here's an extract from a heritage statement that my wife (who has spent 20 years in this field) put together for a consent order to remove an small addition on one of our properties:
Significance Statement
35 XXX Road is a significant heritage asset, a Grade II listed resource and a contributing building in the XYZ Conservation Area. The back of the property has been inappropriately altered in the past, including installation of the single storey porch (c. 1970) and installation of an improperly sited satellite dish.
Impact Assessment
Removal of the inappropriate (design and materials) single storey porch will have positive impact on the heritage character of the property. Removal of the porch will be a first step to returning the original heritage character to the ground floor rear of the property. We will also remove the inappropriate satellite dish, redundant aerials and trailing cables.
Mitigation
If the brickwork at the rear is damaged by removal of the porch or the satellite dish, it will be repaired using bricks to match the original and lime mortar. No further mitigation works will be required.
Thanks gents, fingers crossed for Friday.
Re. The fireplace comment, sadly they are long gone, I like victorian fireplaces but both had been ripped out and replaced with nasty cheap gas fires (well one was it's a B+Q special, the other is the front to a baxi back boiler which I want to replace). But the house does have some lovely features including some unusual windows, a curved wall (that is going to be a bugger to build a kitchen around) and an original copper in the kitchen.
Re. The fireplace comment, sadly they are long gone, I like victorian fireplaces but both had been ripped out and replaced with nasty cheap gas fires (well one was it's a B+Q special, the other is the front to a baxi back boiler which I want to replace). But the house does have some lovely features including some unusual windows, a curved wall (that is going to be a bugger to build a kitchen around) and an original copper in the kitchen.
The conservation officer will want something of architectural merit in its own right to match the "status" of the building. Just because it is the garage not the house matters not a jot. You wouldn't get permission to build what is there now but don't expect them to work on the "anything would be an improvement" as in my experience that doesn't happen. They aren't always terribly good at tkaing into account the use of the building - its a garage. I wanted roller doors but was turned down flat.
It was the first time I had encountered any real issues doing work on a listed building. It was clear that the replacement of my garage was going to be significantly more expensive (say 3x) because of the architects fees/materials/plans etc against the the cost to erect an off the shelf design, even an oak framed one.
It was the first time I had encountered any real issues doing work on a listed building. It was clear that the replacement of my garage was going to be significantly more expensive (say 3x) because of the architects fees/materials/plans etc against the the cost to erect an off the shelf design, even an oak framed one.
Sorry for the tardy response.
We had the site meeting and it was very positive, everything we wanted to do was approved and was an awful lot easier than I'd worried it might be! That said we were wanting to be sensible about the work we wanted to do so hopefully all the paperwork goes through now and the jobs done........ Then the expense starts!
We had the site meeting and it was very positive, everything we wanted to do was approved and was an awful lot easier than I'd worried it might be! That said we were wanting to be sensible about the work we wanted to do so hopefully all the paperwork goes through now and the jobs done........ Then the expense starts!
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