Secret tunnels under Manchester

[DavidY]

rooftopper

PH is much more than a car forum, witness the diverse selections of sub-forums that you can contribute to. We are also much more of a community than maybe you think.

If 28DL didn't want to be noticed then you wouldn't publish an open website. Since you do (and I and many other PH members have now browsed it, thanks to the PoD link), we are much more informed people about urban decay, and that for many of us it has sparked an interest, which in turn may be of interest to you guys as we join and discover new undiscovered structures to explore.

Or perhaps thats not of interest to 28DL, who know absolutely everything that there is to be explored, and have no interest in interacting with new people and perhaps learning something youselves.

I'm afraid that the moderators/owners of 28DL have come across as being very elitist and the actions taken against PoD and sjn, mean that at present I've no interest in registering (and perhaps contributing something useful) on your site.

davidy

[Rooftopper]

Olf said:

P.s. you'll also notice that we take on your point of view and discuss it with you in an adult fashion rather than just slating you and then asking mods to ban you.

Better way of doing it don't you think?

Its no good playing the reasonable man if youre basically going to say "look at us, we're better than you, we discuss it properly"

[Rooftopper]

DavidY said:

rooftopper

PH is much more than a car forum, witness the diverse selections of sub-forums that you can contribute to. We are also much more of a community than maybe you think.

If 28DL didn't want to be noticed then you wouldn't publish an open website. Since you do (and I and many other PH members have now browsed it, thanks to the PoD link), we are much more informed people about urban decay, and that for many of us it has sparked an interest, which in turn may be of interest to you guys as we join and discover new undiscovered structures to explore.

Or perhaps thats not of interest to 28DL, who know absolutely everything that there is to be explored, and have no interest in interacting with new people and perhaps learning something youselves.

I'm afraid that the moderators/owners of 28DL have come across as being very elitist and the actions taken against PoD and sjn, mean that at present I've no interest in registering (and perhaps contributing something useful) on your site.

davidy

If you have a genuine interest join and contribute rather than joining to pick holes in other peoples theories, stay, explore have fun.

Dont join, try and hang onto the coattails of the people who are actually getting off their arses to do something rather than sitting behind a keyboard pointing out the inadequacies of others

[Olf]

Rooftopper said:

Olf said:

P.s. you'll also notice that we take on your point of view and discuss it with you in an adult fashion rather than just slating you and then asking mods to ban you.

Better way of doing it don't you think?

Its no good playing the reasonable man if youre basically going to say "look at us, we're better than you, we discuss it properly"

Well surely the fact that you've come here to discuss the issue because you've banned the main participants on 28DL is telling?

[Rooftopper]

Olf said:

Rooftopper said:

Olf said:

P.s. you'll also notice that we take on your point of view and discuss it with you in an adult fashion rather than just slating you and then asking mods to ban you.

Better way of doing it don't you think?

Its no good playing the reasonable man if youre basically going to say "look at us, we're better than you, we discuss it properly"

Well surely the fact that you've come here to discuss the issue because you've banned the main participants on 28DL is telling?

Im merely a member, nothing to do with the staff.

im merely pointing things out from the opposite perspective.

[Olf]

Rooftopper said:

Olf said:

Rooftopper said:

Olf said:

P.s. you'll also notice that we take on your point of view and discuss it with you in an adult fashion rather than just slating you and then asking mods to ban you.

Better way of doing it don't you think?

Its no good playing the reasonable man if youre basically going to say "look at us, we're better than you, we discuss it properly"

Well surely the fact that you've come here to discuss the issue because you've banned the main participants on 28DL is telling?

Im merely a member, nothing to do with the staff.

im merely pointing things out from the opposite perspective.

Fair enough. PoD in particular hasn't weighed in yet and I don't want to speak for him, but you seem to have come here with the idea that he and others were being problematic. If you read the whole of this thread you'll see he had a genuine interest in the location, had previously contributed to 28dl and found himself banned for trying to take part reasonably in the discussion.

from my perspective as a long time lurker on 28dl I feel that the mad rush to delete any history of these discussion from the board tends to suggest that free and open dialogue is a rare element over there.

[minimoog]

Rooftopper said:

Correct me if im wrong but this is a car forum based around the love of motorsports, not the love of urban exploring or looking in underground tunnels, so why attach yourselves to 28 days later like leeches taking the sites we've taken care to find and passing them on to every tom dick and harry and contributing very little yourselves (in some cases this is wrong as i know there are a few who have contributed a fair bit of research)

How would you like it if you were arranging a car meet and a load of totally unconnected people appeared and tried to take over the whole affair?

Yes this is pricipally a car forum but this part of it is reserved for anything interesting and non-car related. Problem?

This site has not been 'attached' to yours, nor is it leeching. There's that preciousness again. However, you'll notice I've posted up some doctored versions of SL's pictures here, showing more details of the arches. I would have posted them on 28DL instead where they would have got a wider audience, but after seeing how some of your pals conduct themselves towards newbies I'll wouldn't join your forum for anything, even though I've been lurking there as a guest since last year (and yeah I'm sure you're gutted).

I sincerely hope that people don't descend on and ruin the sites as a result of reading about them here. What should have happened is people who's interest was piqued by the post here should have gone over to 28DL, joined up, and entered your community as like-minded folk with a common interest. Problem is that isn't gonna happen, because those who tried were insulted, banned, and basically told to off out of your little club, and all for what appears to be the worst possible reasons (elitism basically).

Finally, if you want to keep everything you do a secret amongst yourselves, maybe - just maybe - a public website isn't the way to communicate with each other...?

Edited by minimoog on Monday 16th July 11:53

[Parrot of Doom]

You can see the steps to the far left in this 1903 image here:



Look at the bottom of this picture dated 1910:



It seems to suggest that the landing stages were used as a furniture outlet/shipping area? Or it could just be advertising space for another business near the river.


By this point in 1950, the steps are long gone (although reports suggest some steps were still there, albiet closed to the public:



I'm sure there are odd gaps in the victorian fencing - when I go, I'll check that out.


Here is the location of the public toilets dated 1950, which I believe may be the same ones shown on the 28dl page. Middle bottom of the image:



and again



and again in 1944:



and again, to the left:



I can't see the 28dl pics so if someone could link the two, we could get a better idea.


This image taken in 1969 appears to show some work going on outside the Cathedral. The toilets would be to the right out of the image but it may give an idea as to when they were closed. Cromwell's statue was removed in 1968.



This image in 1972 shows a great deal of work south of the Cathedral, along the river.




1878 - before the Cathedral Steps were in operation perhaps?



1892 - still no steps evident - although they may be beyond the left edge:



1897 - the steps are now there.



1922 - looks like some steps are still there, north of the bridge, and a building between the two bridges - look at the building in the image near the bottom of this thread. The toilets are visible.



1926:





1930:



1903 - Can't see the steps (they should be on the railings underneath bovril:



The steps in 1900:



1938:





1963 - wooden steps are still clearly visible, as are the toilets:





Hope that wasn't too boring!

[tank slapper]

Rooftopper said:

Dont join, try and hang onto the coattails of the people who are actually getting off their arses to do something rather than sitting behind a keyboard pointing out the inadequacies of others

As far as I can see, this view seems to stem from the fact that POD is a "media type", and therefore untrustworthy. As he has said, the subject would make an interesting TV programme, but 28dl seem to feel that this is encroaching on 'their' ground.

I am sure much of this misunderstanding is probably down to assumptions and the fact that the communication has been in writing between people who do not know each other. If the same discussion had taken place in the pub I doubt that there would have been any problem.

[Rooftopper]

minimoog said:

Rooftopper said:

Correct me if im wrong but this is a car forum based around the love of motorsports, not the love of urban exploring or looking in underground tunnels, so why attach yourselves to 28 days later like leeches taking the sites we've taken care to find and passing them on to every tom dick and harry and contributing very little yourselves (in some cases this is wrong as i know there are a few who have contributed a fair bit of research)

How would you like it if you were arranging a car meet and a load of totally unconnected people appeared and tried to take over the whole affair?

Yes this is pricipally a car forum but this part of it is reserved for anything interesting and non-car related. Problem?

This site has not been 'attached' to yours, nor is it leeching. There's that preciousness again. However, you'll notice I've posted up some doctored versions of SL's pictures here, showing more details of the arches. I would have posted them on 28DL instead where they would have got a wider audience, but after seeing how some of your pals conduct themselves towards newbies I'll wouldn't join your forum for anything, even though I've been lurking there as a guest since last year (and yeah I'm sure you're gutted).

I sincerely hope that people don't descend on and ruin your sites as a result of reading about them here. What should have happened is people who's interest was piqued by the post here should have gone over to 28DL, joined up, and entered your community as like-minded folk with a common interest. Problem is that isn't gonna happen, because those who tried were insulted, banned, and basically told to off out of your little club, and all for what appears to be the worst possible reasons (elitism basically).

Finally, if you want to keep everything you do a secret amongst yourselves, maybe - just maybe - a public website isn't the way to communicate with each other...?

You can go at me about the actions of the staff over there but it isnt going to change anything because im not in a position to change anything, your arguement is with them not me.

I'll discuss attitudes but not staff decisions.

[Rooftopper]

Olf said:

Rooftopper said:

Olf said:

Rooftopper said:

Olf said:

P.s. you'll also notice that we take on your point of view and discuss it with you in an adult fashion rather than just slating you and then asking mods to ban you.

Better way of doing it don't you think?

Its no good playing the reasonable man if youre basically going to say "look at us, we're better than you, we discuss it properly"

Well surely the fact that you've come here to discuss the issue because you've banned the main participants on 28DL is telling?

Im merely a member, nothing to do with the staff.

im merely pointing things out from the opposite perspective.

Fair enough. PoD in particular hasn't weighed in yet and I don't want to speak for him, but you seem to have come here with the idea that he and others were being problematic. If you read the whole of this thread you'll see he had a genuine interest in the location, had previously contributed to 28dl and found himself banned for trying to take part reasonably in the discussion.

from my perspective as a long time lurker on 28dl I feel that the mad rush to delete any history of these discussion from the board tends to suggest that free and open dialogue is a rare element over there.

He was admittedly one of the ones who contributed.

[Parrot of Doom]

Rooftopper said:

So you did what, stood outside the fence and speculated rather than checking to see whether there was access to said tunnel network?

Why dont you get your arse in there and check for yourself?

Nobody here is saying that what the people who explored the Cathedral stages did was easy, or to be undertaken lightly. Nobody is saying they shouldn't have done it because we're all fascinated by the images. Personally I'm glad they did it, because I love reading about things.

What annoyed me was the way I was rounded on and treated like shit, just for asking a few simple questions. A polite "We'd rather not discuss it but thanks for the input and we hope you enjoy the site" would have been much better than "off topic shit, deleted, ulterior motives, BANNED".

If you come to this site and ask a basic question thats been answered a million times before (my tyre is split, what do I do), nobody here will say "USE THE SEARCH YOU IDIOT" - its not that kind of site. You could learn a thing or two from the example set here.

[Rooftopper]

Parrot of Doom said:

Rooftopper said:

So you did what, stood outside the fence and speculated rather than checking to see whether there was access to said tunnel network?

Why dont you get your arse in there and check for yourself?

Nobody here is saying that what the people who explored the Cathedral stages did was easy, or to be undertaken lightly. Nobody is saying they shouldn't have done it because we're all fascinated by the images. Personally I'm glad they did it, because I love reading about things.

What annoyed me was the way I was rounded on and treated like shit, just for asking a few simple questions. A polite "We'd rather not discuss it but thanks for the input and we hope you enjoy the site" would have been much better than "off topic shit, deleted, ulterior motives, BANNED".

If you come to this site and ask a basic question thats been answered a million times before (my tyre is split, what do I do), nobody here will say "USE THE SEARCH YOU IDIOT" - its not that kind of site. You could learn a thing or two from the example set here.

I prefer the latter approach actually, i admin on several forums and am sick of lazy tts who cant be arsed to use the search function and would rather have someone else do their work for them.

Thats not the point though.

[Parrot of Doom]

Rooftopper said:

If you have a genuine interest join and contribute rather than joining to pick holes in other peoples theories, stay, explore have fun.

Dont join, try and hang onto the coattails of the people who are actually getting off their arses to do something rather than sitting behind a keyboard pointing out the inadequacies of others

I do have a genuine interest, I joined, and I contributed (a bloody big thread on Carrington Power Station that took me a while to write).

Then I was banned for having a genuine interest, banned for contributing.

[minimoog]

I thought these stairs might be from the toilets you show there PoD, but I can't place that narrow building at the top of the steps, which doesn't look very far away, in those photos. There's a similarly narrow gable to the north of the cathdral, but it has distictive windows and is quite a way from the toilets, so I don't think it's that.

[Rooftopper]

Parrot of Doom said:

Rooftopper said:

If you have a genuine interest join and contribute rather than joining to pick holes in other peoples theories, stay, explore have fun.

Dont join, try and hang onto the coattails of the people who are actually getting off their arses to do something rather than sitting behind a keyboard pointing out the inadequacies of others

I do have a genuine interest, I joined, and I contributed (a bloody big thread on Carrington Power Station that took me a while to write).

Then I was banned for having a genuine interest, banned for contributing.

I did say you contributed if you look further up the page.

[Mahatma Bag]

Fascinating stuff.

Somebody posted some pics of the inside of an abandoned hospital a while back...they were good too...and a little spooky.

There are some similar looking walled up doors along the river in York...I wonder if they have been explored?

[neil_bolton]

Rooftopper said:

Parrot of Doom said:

Rooftopper said:

So you did what, stood outside the fence and speculated rather than checking to see whether there was access to said tunnel network?

Why dont you get your arse in there and check for yourself?

Nobody here is saying that what the people who explored the Cathedral stages did was easy, or to be undertaken lightly. Nobody is saying they shouldn't have done it because we're all fascinated by the images. Personally I'm glad they did it, because I love reading about things.

What annoyed me was the way I was rounded on and treated like shit, just for asking a few simple questions. A polite "We'd rather not discuss it but thanks for the input and we hope you enjoy the site" would have been much better than "off topic shit, deleted, ulterior motives, BANNED".

If you come to this site and ask a basic question thats been answered a million times before (my tyre is split, what do I do), nobody here will say "USE THE SEARCH YOU IDIOT" - its not that kind of site. You could learn a thing or two from the example set here.

I prefer the latter approach actually, i admin on several forums and am sick of lazy tts who cant be arsed to use the search function and would rather have someone else do their work for them.

Thats not the point though.

I think you'll find then, perhaps (without knowing the sites) why those fora are not quite as popular as PH (I mean this in a way that we continously attract new members and keep existing ones - not "we're better that you" ).

PH has a friendly and open style, and the Mods (including me) try to enforce the rules as fairly as possible.

However if a Moderator was to turn around and do what 28dl and you are suggesting that you do, we'd be banned from PH and most likely be getting a phone call from the site owners asking exactly just wtf we thought we were doing.

I think, personally, the treatment is dispicable, and my readings of the, albiet incredibly fascinating, site are that it is indeed very closed and guarded - and most definitly closed to anyone who cannot provide anything useful to the 'regulars'.

I'm sure if I wandered on there as a ex-MOD facilities manager, and was happy to risk my career and life by spilling the 'beans' on secret stuff, I'd be heralded as a hero to the site.

But come on as someone who is just interested in what goes on, and how to get involved - and its very much closed.

Edited by neil_bolton on Monday 16th July 12:20

Edited by neil_bolton on Monday 16th July 12:20

[Rooftopper]

neil_bolton said:

Rooftopper said:

Parrot of Doom said:

Rooftopper said:

So you did what, stood outside the fence and speculated rather than checking to see whether there was access to said tunnel network?

Why dont you get your arse in there and check for yourself?

Nobody here is saying that what the people who explored the Cathedral stages did was easy, or to be undertaken lightly. Nobody is saying they shouldn't have done it because we're all fascinated by the images. Personally I'm glad they did it, because I love reading about things.

What annoyed me was the way I was rounded on and treated like shit, just for asking a few simple questions. A polite "We'd rather not discuss it but thanks for the input and we hope you enjoy the site" would have been much better than "off topic shit, deleted, ulterior motives, BANNED".

If you come to this site and ask a basic question thats been answered a million times before (my tyre is split, what do I do), nobody here will say "USE THE SEARCH YOU IDIOT" - its not that kind of site. You could learn a thing or two from the example set here.

I prefer the latter approach actually, i admin on several forums and am sick of lazy tts who cant be arsed to use the search function and would rather have someone else do their work for them.

Thats not the point though.

I think you'll find then, perhaps (without knowing the sites) why those fora are not quite as popular as PH.

PH has a friendly and open style, and the Mods (including me) try to enforce the rules as fairly as possible.

However if a Moderator was to turn around and do what 28dl and you are suggesting that you do, we'd be banned from PH and most likely be getting a phone call from the site owners asking exactly just wtf we thought we were doing.

I think, personally, the treatment is dispicable, and my readings of the, albiet incredibly fascinating, site are that it is indeed very closed and guarded - and most definitly closed to anyone who cannot provide anything useful to the 'regulars'.

I'm sure if I wandered on there as a ex-MOD facilities manager, and was happy to risk my career and life by spilling the 'beans' on secret stuff, I'd be heralded as a hero to the site.

But come on as someone who is just interested in what goes on, and how to get involved - and its very much closed.

Its not a popularity contest mate, this is getting further and further from the actual point of discussion (ie the tunnels)

Oh and "despicable" have you heard yourself.

[Parrot of Doom]

minimoog said:

I thought these stairs might be from the toilets you show there PoD, but I can't place that narrow building at the top of the steps, which doesn't look very far away, in those photos. There's a similarly narrow gable to the north of the cathdral, but it has distictive windows and is quite a way from the toilets, so I don't think it's that.

That image has turned up because on the council website, it is one of three that appear when you search for the air raid shelters. Another one of those three images is exactly the same location as one of the 28dl images (the corridor with the big pipe along the ceiling).

There is a possibility that images on the council's website are described and catalogued incorrectly I suppose, but until someone visits the library and finds the plans of the area, including the landing stages and tunnels, its going to be difficult to work out.