Discussion
zippy3x said:
10PS was wholly to blame (which I made clear in my original post), any talk of stopping distances is moot. 10PS was found guilty in a court of law. It was his fault.
However, in my opinion, the biker must, accept some responsibility for his injuries, due to his choice of mode of transport and implicit acknowledgement of the danger so well explained by Speed addicted above.
If 10PS was wholly to blame, how is there any responsibility for anyone else to take. However, in my opinion, the biker must, accept some responsibility for his injuries, due to his choice of mode of transport and implicit acknowledgement of the danger so well explained by Speed addicted above.
You can't have it both ways - if the motorcyclist was partially responsible (10%?) then 10PS can only have been partially responsible too.
Motorcycling is risky (so is driving a car) but an accident can be completely one side's fault. Whether the other side is a driver or a rider is moot.
zippy3x said:
This was really the point I was initially trying to make.
Bikers know the risks, we all do.
Bikers make a choice, we all do.
I have no problem with your choice, but it is your choice.
As you nicely put it, it's a question of risk vs reward.
But I would also put another "R" in there - responsibility.
In hindsight, responsibility might have been a better word than culpability, but it seems quite simple to me.
You choose the reward and acknowledge the risk - embrace the responsibility and accept the consequences of your decision.
10PS was wholly to blame (which I made clear in my original post), any talk of stopping distances is moot. 10PS was found guilty in a court of law. It was his fault.
However, in my opinion, the biker must, accept some responsibility for his injuries, due to his choice of mode of transport and implicit acknowledgement of the danger so well explained by Speed addicted above.
Should I not walk across a roadBikers know the risks, we all do.
Bikers make a choice, we all do.
I have no problem with your choice, but it is your choice.
As you nicely put it, it's a question of risk vs reward.
But I would also put another "R" in there - responsibility.
In hindsight, responsibility might have been a better word than culpability, but it seems quite simple to me.
You choose the reward and acknowledge the risk - embrace the responsibility and accept the consequences of your decision.
10PS was wholly to blame (which I made clear in my original post), any talk of stopping distances is moot. 10PS was found guilty in a court of law. It was his fault.
However, in my opinion, the biker must, accept some responsibility for his injuries, due to his choice of mode of transport and implicit acknowledgement of the danger so well explained by Speed addicted above.
Should I not ride my bicycle
In case someone on a hot lap in a Integra Type R wipes me out?
What tripe.
fridaypassion said:
Speed addicted said:
Again, if you find that you're consistently doing something and find that bikes appear out of no-where you need to have a look at what you're doing too.
It's quite possible that the bikes are all traveling at extremely high speed, but it's unlikely.
Vans typically have large mirrors, look more than once. That's all it takes.
I notice than a lot of bikers (particularly new ones) wear a lot of high vis. I used to think the same way, make yourself more visible and people will stop pulling out in front of you.
Then I got a lurid green Triumph Speed Triple and it made no difference at all. People don't see you because they're not looking, not because you're hard to see.
A lot of riding motorbikes safely in traffic involves looking for other people's reactions and anticipating what they might possibly do next. A huge amount of people drive around in their own little bubble, unaware and uninterested in the world outside. You don't have that option on two wheels, and it's made me a far better car driver.
What you can't anticipate is coming round a blind corner to find a car mid crash coming towards you. If you think that way for every corner you will have a very slow journey indeed.
I don't go melting through blind corners, I always keep some margin for the unexpected. However my margins wouldn't allow for the one in a million (or more) chance of this accident.
I do worry for you. You have the totally wrong approach. If you think you can always be seen on a bike you are wrong for the reasons I have already stated. I happen to be a pretty experienced driver and at the time I was driving a van I would do 40k per year for about 11 years and I never had an accident. Youtube is littered with videos where a typical scenario is that a biker is either trying to filter past a junction and gets knocked off or is filtering down a lane too quick and gets pulled out on. It's quite possible that the bikes are all traveling at extremely high speed, but it's unlikely.
Vans typically have large mirrors, look more than once. That's all it takes.
I notice than a lot of bikers (particularly new ones) wear a lot of high vis. I used to think the same way, make yourself more visible and people will stop pulling out in front of you.
Then I got a lurid green Triumph Speed Triple and it made no difference at all. People don't see you because they're not looking, not because you're hard to see.
A lot of riding motorbikes safely in traffic involves looking for other people's reactions and anticipating what they might possibly do next. A huge amount of people drive around in their own little bubble, unaware and uninterested in the world outside. You don't have that option on two wheels, and it's made me a far better car driver.
What you can't anticipate is coming round a blind corner to find a car mid crash coming towards you. If you think that way for every corner you will have a very slow journey indeed.
I don't go melting through blind corners, I always keep some margin for the unexpected. However my margins wouldn't allow for the one in a million (or more) chance of this accident.
Edited by Speed addicted on Wednesday 12th July 08:04
I live near Leeds and we have a section of the M621 that bends round to the right as you go from a 50 to 70. This is the worst section for bikes coming up on you. You can check your mirror and you just cant see fully a section behind you with the bend in the road. Also if you check your mirror twice and in that split second after a biker races into your blind spot thats another one thats all too common.
Some people may not see you because they werent diligent enough of course (see my earlier point regarding a certain level of risk you sign up for) but generally the standard of driving in this country is pretty good and a well ridden bike travelling at an appropriate speed in the correct bit of the road has a fighting change of being seen.
Born agains account apparently a lot of accidents. They have the big stuff on their licence from the get go. I would have to do CBT and a proper bike test. Maybe everyone should.
Thinking of the poor unfortunates that I know that have been killed on bikes and there are a few. The fact is that unfortunately they were riding way to quick and lost control. I would imagine thats the biggest single cause of bike accidents.
According to this study http://www.mc-ams.co.uk/blog/accident-statistics-u... 80% of bike accidents are due to other people, nearly 50% are due to other drivers.
I know 2 people that had massive crashes due to speed, everyone else I've known that has come off and been killed or injured had other factors that were more significant than how fast they were moving. Like a VW camper turning right without looking and killing a mate on his way home from work doing a steady 50 because of traffic.
If you've been driving 11 years you can go direct access, 1 week course and any bike you like (I think, unless it's changed recently)
I would make a frighteningly inexperienced motorcyclist. I love bikes. Ironically I Was brought up on a diet of TT/Manx GP as a kid but was never allowed a bike. My Grandfather was big into bikes in the post war era he'd had them all but riding when there was only a handful of cars in the vicinity vs now...
I'm all for people being able to do as they please and of course bikers have every right to be on the road its the compatibility of modern driving thats the worry. I have many friends that ride bikes and oddly enough the idea that they are automatically subscribing to inherent danger is often discussed. Its quite odd that Zyp was pulled on it on here. Its a topic often discussed over many years in the pub. In my line of work I provide the methadone to get bikers off two wheels so its often a pertinent subject.
I'm all for people being able to do as they please and of course bikers have every right to be on the road its the compatibility of modern driving thats the worry. I have many friends that ride bikes and oddly enough the idea that they are automatically subscribing to inherent danger is often discussed. Its quite odd that Zyp was pulled on it on here. Its a topic often discussed over many years in the pub. In my line of work I provide the methadone to get bikers off two wheels so its often a pertinent subject.
fridaypassion said:
Its quite odd that Zyp was pulled on it on here. Its a topic often discussed over many years in the pub. In my line of work I provide the methadone to get bikers off two wheels so its often a pertinent subject.
Not odd at all. If it had been a general discussion about the relative merits of biking and associated safety then all well and good.However a comment such as "However, in my opinion, the biker must, accept some responsibility for his injuries, due to his choice of mode of transport" is a little wide of the mark putting it mildly.
Anyways ..... let's all move on before this becomes another PH 30 page argument
It's a contentious subject I feel as alot of motorists seem to be self important, self obsessed and feel it's now now now for them and anyone else is an inconvenience.
I've noticed this many times on my road bike or observed other drivers behaviour out on NSL or non urban roads.
If every driver had to start out on two wheels first we'd see a massive change in certain drivers attitudes.
Some drivers are pricks.
A minority of two wheel users are pricks.
It is a minority as riders know they have to look out for their mortality with other road users arrogantly around.
Personally I've suffered road rage from drivers, never another two wheel user.
I've noticed this many times on my road bike or observed other drivers behaviour out on NSL or non urban roads.
If every driver had to start out on two wheels first we'd see a massive change in certain drivers attitudes.
Some drivers are pricks.
A minority of two wheel users are pricks.
It is a minority as riders know they have to look out for their mortality with other road users arrogantly around.
Personally I've suffered road rage from drivers, never another two wheel user.
Bit of self restraint.... something we all need to practice on the road, if we did then there would be a lot less accidents...
Placing blame at another persons feet for an accident that was driving within the expectations of the road is a spineless way out, we all have
to accept that this was an unfortunate accident, 10pc lost control of a vehicle that resulted in an innocent person being hurt.
that was the simple hard fact and by reading 10pc post it is a very sobering post to read, and one that should make us all think twice.
Its easy to get caught up in the adrenaline its easy to lose your sensibility on the road and suddenly find yourself running out of luck. Why ?
there are track days and organised sporting events that you can let lose on and enjoy and take the risks that you want. do we want the roads here to be like the TT course in the IoM where the ratio of baws out exceeds the sane a few times a year, we see the effects of that. a few never make it back.
But that's an organised event, going to the other side a normal road with NSL, that states the limit is 60 on a single carriageway, but there are often sections of road that you would not do 60 as it wouldn't be safe. you would expect your other road users to be compliant with the expectation of the road. its the way we all get along and the majority of us don't end up spread across the pavement and months in recovery. you say the biker was to blame ? Yeah I see your reasoning just as much relevance as hes to blame as he got up that morning, that his father was a contributing factor as he got frisky with his mother all these years ago. there are many avenues in the blame culture, but the biggest blame here lay at 10pc. he got it wrong. not a bad person far from it, that can be seen in his posts, Id buy him a pint and listen to him with not an issue. like wise the biker. it was a breakdown in the events, a build up that resulted in what happened. it could have been all so very different. if the biker had left an hour earlier etc.... all sorts of contributing factors fed into it. the biggest one was 10pc. and that was what led to the court and jail.
As I said I took a lot form this. learned from someone elses experience.
Placing blame at another persons feet for an accident that was driving within the expectations of the road is a spineless way out, we all have
to accept that this was an unfortunate accident, 10pc lost control of a vehicle that resulted in an innocent person being hurt.
that was the simple hard fact and by reading 10pc post it is a very sobering post to read, and one that should make us all think twice.
Its easy to get caught up in the adrenaline its easy to lose your sensibility on the road and suddenly find yourself running out of luck. Why ?
there are track days and organised sporting events that you can let lose on and enjoy and take the risks that you want. do we want the roads here to be like the TT course in the IoM where the ratio of baws out exceeds the sane a few times a year, we see the effects of that. a few never make it back.
But that's an organised event, going to the other side a normal road with NSL, that states the limit is 60 on a single carriageway, but there are often sections of road that you would not do 60 as it wouldn't be safe. you would expect your other road users to be compliant with the expectation of the road. its the way we all get along and the majority of us don't end up spread across the pavement and months in recovery. you say the biker was to blame ? Yeah I see your reasoning just as much relevance as hes to blame as he got up that morning, that his father was a contributing factor as he got frisky with his mother all these years ago. there are many avenues in the blame culture, but the biggest blame here lay at 10pc. he got it wrong. not a bad person far from it, that can be seen in his posts, Id buy him a pint and listen to him with not an issue. like wise the biker. it was a breakdown in the events, a build up that resulted in what happened. it could have been all so very different. if the biker had left an hour earlier etc.... all sorts of contributing factors fed into it. the biggest one was 10pc. and that was what led to the court and jail.
As I said I took a lot form this. learned from someone elses experience.
bus pass said:
I don’t know about in 2007, but between 2011 and 2017 it wasn’t great.
Think Groundhog Day, but with added extreme violence, drug overdoses, suicides, severe staff shortages, terrible food and brain melting levels of incompetence and burocracy.
So being a prison officer didn't work out well for you then Think Groundhog Day, but with added extreme violence, drug overdoses, suicides, severe staff shortages, terrible food and brain melting levels of incompetence and burocracy.
TVR Moneypit said:
A 196KG, £25 mill cocaine smuggling conspiracy, (I'm sure the PH detectives could dig up the details if they could remember my real name). My total charges came to 57 years, but due to the fact that they all ran concurrently and I pleaded guilty to all the charges brought against me, thus securing a 33% discount for a early guilty plea, plus I paid my POCA in full straight away, meant that I "only" had to serve 6 years. Although I've got to tell you, 6 years banged up in various s
tholes away from your family is no cakewalk.
Hmmm.....tholes away from your family is no cakewalk.Edited by TVR Moneypit on Monday 9th October 19:09
Well you have certainly been absent for exactly six years and one day since you last posted.
This all seems slightly implausible though, somehow.
TVR Moneypit said:
Why?
I dunno. Your previous posts don't exactly scream "I'm the sort of criminal who gets a six year sentence".I couldn't tell you what type of posts DO scream that though, I will admit.
You've disappeared for six years and returned telling us you were jailed for some sort of drug smuggling conspiracy. As things stand and without any proof, it's a bit of a reach.
TVR Moneypit said:
sc0tt said:
What was you in for? How long was your sentence if you was only in for 6?
Where was you?
A 196KG, £25 mill cocaine smuggling conspiracy, (I'm sure the PH detectives could dig up the details if they could remember my real name). My total charges came to 57 years, but due to the fact that they all ran concurrently and I pleaded guilty to all the charges brought against me, thus securing a 33% discount for a early guilty plea, plus I paid my POCA in full straight away, meant that I "only" had to serve 6 years. Although I've got to tell you, 6 years banged up in various sWhere was you?
tholes away from your family is no cakewalk.Edited by TVR Moneypit on Monday 9th October 19:09
TVR Moneypit said:
zarjaz1991 said:
TVR Moneypit said:
Why?
I dunno. Your previous posts don't exactly scream "I'm the sort of criminal who gets a six year sentence".I couldn't tell you what type of posts DO scream that though, I will admit.
You've disappeared for six years and returned telling us you were jailed for some sort of drug smuggling conspiracy. As things stand and without any proof, it's a bit of a reach.
I could do a Google search on my name, which I assume would bring up various news reports, (I haven't Googled myself), but I'm not sure I really want to be posting that sort of stuff on public forums.
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