Management bulls**t phrases

[JonRB]

iphonedyou said:

'Fluid requirements' is as bullstty as it comes, I'm afraid. Doesn't make him a troll.

As Mr E says, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Changeable requirements?
Requirements that are subject to change?
Requirements that are only partially defined and that will evolve over time? (Bit of a mouthful there)

Fluid implies changeable, dynamic, evolving, moveable.
Requirements are, well, requirements.

Seems pretty straightforward and non-bullstty to me.

Edit: And even if that one phrase is dodgy, it doesn't invalidate my entire post.

Edited by JonRB on Thursday 15th January 09:32

[iphonedyou]

JonRB said:

As Mr E says, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Changeable requirements?
Requirements that are subject to change?
Requirements that are only partially defined and that will evolve over time? (Bit of a mouthful there)

Fluid implies changeable, dynamic, evolving, moveable.
Requirements are, well, requirements.

Seems pretty straightforward and non-bullstty to me.

Edit: And even if that one phrase is dodgy, it doesn't invalidate my entire post.

Edited by JonRB on Thursday 15th January 09:32

Pyhrric victory level: expert.

[Hitch78]

JonRB said:

Hitch78 said:

JonRB said:

those concepts

Blu...mugh...bluuueeerrrgghhhhhh!

Ah, right. I see.

Well, thank you for your valued and erudite contribution to the thread. Maybe you could return to under your bridge now?

I'm going to sprint to a scrum with my troll colleagues, plenty of fluid requirement flows under our bridge.

[Shaolin]

iphonedyou said:

JonRB said:

Ah, right. I see.

Well, thank you for your valued and erudite contribution to the thread. Maybe you could return to under your bridge now?

'Fluid requirements' is as bullstty as it comes, I'm afraid. Doesn't make him a troll.

A rule of thumb is would you use the phrase with your mates or family.

"Right family, we're on holiday and going to the theme park. We don't really have a plan of action and all requirements are therefore regarded as fluid. Regular scrums will take place as to which child wishes to go on the tea-cups with Mummy and which on the log-flume with Daddy for instance."

A phrase becomes management bullst to my mind when it dresses something that is quite ordinary up to be something else. Daily meeting - scrum / want we want might change - fluid requirements, for instance. The whole thing is about looking more important and dynamic than you really are when just going about ordinary stuff.

[JonRB]

Shaolin said:

A rule of thumb is would you use the phrase with your mates or family.

"Right family, we're on holiday and going to the theme park. We don't really have a plan of action and all requirements are therefore regarded as fluid. Regular scrums will take place as to which child wishes to go on the tea-cups with Mummy and which on the log-flume with Daddy for instance."

A phrase becomes management bullst to my mind when it dresses something that is quite ordinary up to be something else. Daily meeting - scrum / want we want might change - fluid requirements, for instance. The whole thing is about looking more important and dynamic than you really are when just going about ordinary stuff.

Perhaps. But, also, every industry develops jargon so that people who are au fait with the terms, concepts and background knowledge of that area of business can succinctly refer to the same thing.

For example, "Scrum" is a much more tightly defined term than "daily meeting". And "requirements" is far more defined than merely "what we want to do".

Saying "what do you fancy doing?" is fine with mates / family, but in business it is a world away from "what do we have to do in order to make something that our customers want to buy and which will make us money and pay our wages?". The latter is what 'requirements' are. If the answer is "we're not totally sure and we might want to change our minds as we go along" then there is a certain fluidly to that.
Just doing what whatever you fancy doing is not going to make you money and your business will probably go bankrupt.

I'm not disagreeing with you, necessarily, I'm just pointing out that some terms that may seem bullstty actually have well-defined and understood meanings that are more precise than a more general equivalent.

[Dr Jekyll]

Shaolin said:

A rule of thumb is would you use the phrase with your mates or family.

"Right family, we're on holiday and going to the theme park. We don't really have a plan of action and all requirements are therefore regarded as fluid. Regular scrums will take place as to which child wishes to go on the tea-cups with Mummy and which on the log-flume with Daddy for instance."

A phrase becomes management bullst to my mind when it dresses something that is quite ordinary up to be something else. Daily meeting - scrum / want we want might change - fluid requirements, for instance. The whole thing is about looking more important and dynamic than you really are when just going about ordinary stuff.

But a Scrum isn't just a daily meeting, it's a meeting with a specific purpose, and the purpose of the term is to make that distinction.. It only becomes management bullst when it's used to describe another type of meeting by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

'Fluid requirements' does actually mean something, the fact that it could be rephrased doesn't make it bullst.

Cliches are management bullst, words and phrases that mean nothing. Just because you might not use project management techniques when taking the kids to a theme park doesn't mean project management terminology is necessarily bullst.

[JonRB]

Dr Jekyll said:

But a Scrum isn't just a daily meeting, it's a meeting with a specific purpose, and the purpose of the term is to make that distinction.. It only becomes management bullst when it's used to describe another type of meeting by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

'Fluid requirements' does actually mean something, the fact that it could be rephrased doesn't make it bullst.

Cliches are management bullst, words and phrases that mean nothing. Just because you might not use project management techniques when taking the kids to a theme park doesn't mean project management terminology is necessarily bullst.

Thanks. You explained what I was trying to say better than I did.

[Shaolin]

You are both dressing up ordinary stuff to be something special because it's got its own language. That makes it bullst, especially when people start to think themselves "experts" and argue that "It is special, it is!"

[JonRB]

Shaolin said:

You are both dressing up ordinary stuff to be something special because it's got its own language. That makes it bullst, especially when people start to think themselves "experts" and argue that "It is special, it is!"

I disagree. It's the difference between any old bit of angular metal and the front lower wishbone for a Mk2 Golf. The latter is a far more specific and precisely defined example of the former. Sometimes you need to be more specific.

By your argument, every single item should be referred to as a "thing" and a collection of things as "stuff". Why come up with specific terms to describe specific things? It's all bullst according to you.

[Shaolin]

JonRB said:

It's all bullst according to you.

Not at all. You don't need special names for every conceivable format of meeting and pretend you've invented something new. You're not trying to sell the idea to others or "train" them in it are you?

[JonRB]

Shaolin said:

Not at all. You don't need special names for every conceivable format of meeting and pretend you've invented something new. You're not trying to sell the idea to others or "train" them in it are you?

Ok, consider this scenario

"Hello. Ace Garages. How can I help you?"
"Hi. Yes, I'd like to book my car in for some workshop time with you."
"Certainly sir. What seems to be wrong with it?"
"Nothing. It's running fine"
"So why do you need workshop time?"
"Oh, I need to prove to the government that my car is working fine"
"Um, why?
"I have to. I have to do it every year"
"Ummmm... are you asking us to perform an MoT test, sir?"
"Yes. But that's just a bullst term for workshop time isn't it?"
"No, sir. It's a specific task that we undertake in our workshop to produce an MoT certificate"
"Shaolin says that you don't need special names for every conceivable format of workshop task"
"Well, I think your friend Shaolin may be talking bks, sir. An MoT test is different from general workshop time"

[TTOBES]

"... going to park this idea and revisit it at a later date."

[Dr Jekyll]

JonRB said:

Ok, consider this scenario

"Hello. Ace Garages. How can I help you?"
"Hi. Yes, I'd like to book my car in for some workshop time with you."
"Certainly sir. What seems to be wrong with it?"
"Nothing. It's running fine"
"So why do you need workshop time?"
"Oh, I need to prove to the government that my car is working fine"
"Um, why?
"I have to. I have to do it every year"
"Ummmm... are you asking us to perform an MoT test, sir?"
"Yes. But that's just a bullst term for workshop time isn't it?"
"No, sir. It's a specific task that we undertake in our workshop to produce an MoT certificate"
"Shaolin says that you don't need special names for every conceivable format of workshop task"
"Well, I think your friend Shaolin may be talking bks, sir. An MoT test is different from general workshop time"

[Shaolin]

Sorry, fatuous example, no-one refers to "workshop time". The requirement is for an MOT, no other made-up words needed it's understood by all.

[JonRB]

Shaolin said:

Sorry, fatuous example, no-one refers to "workshop time". The requirement is for an MOT, no other made-up words needed it's understood by all.

Right. And the requirement (sorry, 'requirement' is apparently a bullst term. The "what we want to do") is to hold a Scrum. Not to have a daily meeting.

[Dr Jekyll]

Shaolin said:

Sorry, fatuous example, no-one refers to "workshop time". The requirement is for an MOT, no other made-up words needed it's understood by all.

MOT is a made up word based on the acronym for 'Ministry of Transport Test'. But then all words are made up by somebody. More to the point it isn't understood by all some people think it's a service, but that's their problem. Just as some people think a Scrum is just a meeting.

[Shaolin]

Looks like we are daring to question some vested interests linky

[JonRB]

Shaolin said:

Looks like we are daring to question some vested interests linky

I don't know what your line of work is, chap, but I'm sure that whatever it is there are people who offer training on some aspect of it.

So what?

[Shaolin]

JonRB said:

I don't know what your line of work is, chap, but I'm sure that whatever it is there are people who offer training on some aspect of it.

So what?

Yes, and 99% of all that is bullst too.

[SilverSixer]

I'd like to see a rugby team attempt a stand-up scrum. They wouldn't get very far.

(I am a Prince2 IT Project Manager.)