65 years on if Nazi Germany ruled earth?

[Twincam16]

zakelwe said:

Pesty said:

zakelwe said:

shoggoth1 said:

I doubt there'd be much bother in the Middle East.

Germany didn't have much of a track record there did they though?

Andy

I think he is suggesting there would be no Israil.

There wouldn't be but considering that neck of the woods doesn't like invaders I think they would have a lot of bother and not be able to deal with it. They weren't much good with Tito in the Balkans never mind going out further east.

Also, bear in mind that the Turks were axis powers. There's footage of their army in Nazi uniforms saying their daily prayers to Mecca.

The common misconception of the 'Aryan race' was one of tall athletes with blonde hair and blue eyes. Whilst that represented a kind of 'Teutonic ideal' for Hitler in terms of the Nordic races, as far as Hitler was concerned an 'Aryan race' was one that had demonstrated the ability to establish and control an empire built on military force, so that included the Italians (Romans and Mussolini), the Turks (Ottoman), the Japanese (Hirohito's empire was the most effective Nazi ally), the Spanish (not only Franco, but also, historically, conquerors such as Cortez), and oddly enough, the aryan race Hitler was relying on to become a 'natural' ally, the one that had demonstrated his 'favourite' form of imperialism and join forces to fight communism - the British.

[TEKNOPUG]

zakelwe said:

There wouldn't be but considering that neck of the woods doesn't like invaders I think they would have a lot of bother and not be able to deal with it. They weren't much good with Tito in the Balkans never mind going out further east.

WTF? We ran the whole middle-east with a few Sopwith Camels and pointy sticks. I really don't think that the Afrika Korp would have much trouble.

[TEKNOPUG]

Twincam16 said:

zakelwe said:

Pesty said:

zakelwe said:

shoggoth1 said:

I doubt there'd be much bother in the Middle East.

Germany didn't have much of a track record there did they though?

Andy

I think he is suggesting there would be no Israil.

There wouldn't be but considering that neck of the woods doesn't like invaders I think they would have a lot of bother and not be able to deal with it. They weren't much good with Tito in the Balkans never mind going out further east.

Also, bear in mind that the Turks were axis powers. There's footage of their army in Nazi uniforms saying their daily prayers to Mecca.

The common misconception of the 'Aryan race' was one of tall athletes with blonde hair and blue eyes. Whilst that represented a kind of 'Teutonic ideal' for Hitler in terms of the Nordic races, as far as Hitler was concerned an 'Aryan race' was one that had demonstrated the ability to establish and control an empire built on military force, so that included the Italians (Romans and Mussolini), the Turks (Ottoman), the Japanese (Hirohito's empire was the most effective Nazi ally), the Spanish (not only Franco, but also, historically, conquerors such as Cortez), and oddly enough, the aryan race Hitler was relying on to become a 'natural' ally, the one that had demonstrated his 'favourite' form of imperialism and join forces to fight communism - the British.

The Nazis were more than happy to let anyone join, if they were going to help fight the communists on the Eastern front. Whether they'd be quite so accomodating once victory had been secured is debatable.

[Twincam16]

ZesPak said:

joe_90 said:

Prob have humans on Mars by now..

I don't know why everybody thinks the technological progress would be so high.
Especially if they say the "earth", meaning there is little or no competition (apart from some rebellion movements), so no need for technological advancement.

We would, however, not become dumber every generation to come.

Perhaps, but due to the 'pure-breeding' ideals, we'd succumb to crippling genetic conditions and potentially fatal birth defects relating to the lack of genetic diversity within a few centuries.

[Dave200]

Podie said:

I actually found this a really disappointing read... Really turgid.

[Twincam16]

TEKNOPUG said:

Twincam16 said:

zakelwe said:

Pesty said:

zakelwe said:

shoggoth1 said:

I doubt there'd be much bother in the Middle East.

Germany didn't have much of a track record there did they though?

Andy

I think he is suggesting there would be no Israil.

There wouldn't be but considering that neck of the woods doesn't like invaders I think they would have a lot of bother and not be able to deal with it. They weren't much good with Tito in the Balkans never mind going out further east.

Also, bear in mind that the Turks were axis powers. There's footage of their army in Nazi uniforms saying their daily prayers to Mecca.

The common misconception of the 'Aryan race' was one of tall athletes with blonde hair and blue eyes. Whilst that represented a kind of 'Teutonic ideal' for Hitler in terms of the Nordic races, as far as Hitler was concerned an 'Aryan race' was one that had demonstrated the ability to establish and control an empire built on military force, so that included the Italians (Romans and Mussolini), the Turks (Ottoman), the Japanese (Hirohito's empire was the most effective Nazi ally), the Spanish (not only Franco, but also, historically, conquerors such as Cortez), and oddly enough, the aryan race Hitler was relying on to become a 'natural' ally, the one that had demonstrated his 'favourite' form of imperialism and join forces to fight communism - the British.

The Nazis were more than happy to let anyone join, if they were going to help fight the communists on the Eastern front. Whether they'd be quite so accomodating once victory had been secured is debatable.

He saw the 'Nordics' (roughly speaking, the Teutonic, Scandanavian and British peoples) as the chosen 'masters' of Northern Europe (and that included Russia as far as the Chinese border). His general idea was that the world naturally divided itself into empires. The Japanese would have Japan, China and South-East Asia, Mussolini and Franco were to have divided southern Europe and the Meditterannean between them, and the British empire would have become a kind-of joint Nazi-British operation. Hitler saw the British rule in India as a 'perfect' example of how to oppress a race. At the time Africa had been carved up by Europeans and would have stayed that way.

The big question would've been what would happen to the Americas. Hitler saw the USA as the 'great Satan', due to their egalitarian aspirations of classlessness and attempts at racial integration in some states. The greatest war, as far as he was concerned, would have taken place after he had subjugated Russian communism and united the Aryan world against the USA. What he'd intended to do with central and south America is less clear - perhaps he would've seen it as the natural conquest of the Spanish and allowed Franco to rule it?

Sorry for the long post - I studied patterns of fascism and 'reverse-wave anti-democratisation' quite extensively at university. I think as a generalisation, had all of Hitler's deranged plans gone as he'd intended, Europe would've been enormous, stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific, divided between Hitler, Moseley, Franco and Mussolini, the South Pacific would've been entirely Japanese, probably right down to New Zealand, and the Middle East would've been predominately Ottoman (there's no way several wealthy and powerful nations founded on Islam would bow to a Christian). Africa would've been a carved-up mess and what happened to America would've been anybody's guess. I reckon they'd have flattened the world with nukes by the time Hitler had got his hands on it. On the upside, Hitler would've been stopped, on the downside, most of the world's population would be dead and whole swathes of Europe would've been rendered uninhabitable.

[rich1231]

Twincam16 said:

ZesPak said:

joe_90 said:

Prob have humans on Mars by now..

I don't know why everybody thinks the technological progress would be so high.
Especially if they say the "earth", meaning there is little or no competition (apart from some rebellion movements), so no need for technological advancement.

We would, however, not become dumber every generation to come.

Perhaps, but due to the 'pure-breeding' ideals, we'd succumb to crippling genetic conditions and potentially fatal birth defects relating to the lack of genetic diversity within a few centuries.

Not across a large population base you wouldnt.

[rudecherub]

rich1231 said:

Twincam16 said:

ZesPak said:

joe_90 said:

Prob have humans on Mars by now..

I don't know why everybody thinks the technological progress would be so high.
Especially if they say the "earth", meaning there is little or no competition (apart from some rebellion movements), so no need for technological advancement.

We would, however, not become dumber every generation to come.

Perhaps, but due to the 'pure-breeding' ideals, we'd succumb to crippling genetic conditions and potentially fatal birth defects relating to the lack of genetic diversity within a few centuries.

Not across a large population base you wouldnt.

True - reversion to the mean.

to create an ubermensch would have to be a very controlled selective breeding project, and over a number of generations, but we only have to look a domesticated animals to get an idea of what natural genetic engineering can achieve.

[Twincam16]

rich1231 said:

Twincam16 said:

ZesPak said:

joe_90 said:

Prob have humans on Mars by now..

I don't know why everybody thinks the technological progress would be so high.
Especially if they say the "earth", meaning there is little or no competition (apart from some rebellion movements), so no need for technological advancement.

We would, however, not become dumber every generation to come.

Perhaps, but due to the 'pure-breeding' ideals, we'd succumb to crippling genetic conditions and potentially fatal birth defects relating to the lack of genetic diversity within a few centuries.

Not across a large population base you wouldnt.

Hitler's 'ideal' would've been to restrict who could breed with who, probably punishable by death. The population base might have looked large, but it would've been heavily segregated.

[Zod]

Dave200 said:

Podie said:

I actually found this a really disappointing read... Really turgid.

I struggle to remember what happened. All I remember is a rather ordinary detective story.

[JB!]

rudecherub said:

rich1231 said:

Twincam16 said:

ZesPak said:

joe_90 said:

Prob have humans on Mars by now..

I don't know why everybody thinks the technological progress would be so high.
Especially if they say the "earth", meaning there is little or no competition (apart from some rebellion movements), so no need for technological advancement.

We would, however, not become dumber every generation to come.

Perhaps, but due to the 'pure-breeding' ideals, we'd succumb to crippling genetic conditions and potentially fatal birth defects relating to the lack of genetic diversity within a few centuries.

Not across a large population base you wouldnt.

True - reversion to the mean.

to create an ubermensch would have to be a very controlled selective breeding project, and over a number of generations, but we only have to look a domesticated animals to get an idea of what natural genetic engineering can achieve.

so you'd get an equivalent "deaf dalmation" thing with humans? as in blone hair, blue eyes and no sense of smell or something?

[rudecherub]

JB! said:

rudecherub said:

rich1231 said:

Twincam16 said:

ZesPak said:

joe_90 said:

Prob have humans on Mars by now..

I don't know why everybody thinks the technological progress would be so high.
Especially if they say the "earth", meaning there is little or no competition (apart from some rebellion movements), so no need for technological advancement.

We would, however, not become dumber every generation to come.

Perhaps, but due to the 'pure-breeding' ideals, we'd succumb to crippling genetic conditions and potentially fatal birth defects relating to the lack of genetic diversity within a few centuries.

Not across a large population base you wouldnt.

True - reversion to the mean.

to create an ubermensch would have to be a very controlled selective breeding project, and over a number of generations, but we only have to look a domesticated animals to get an idea of what natural genetic engineering can achieve.

so you'd get an equivalent "deaf dalmation" thing with humans? as in blone hair, blue eyes and no sense of smell or something?

Yes that would be possible outcome, but dogs have been bred badly in recent years for cosmetic reasons eg the British Bulldog ect. rather than practical ones. Better to look at domestic cattle or sheep or horses or working dogs.

IIRC breeding within a small isolated population is the mechanism for evolution as it allows a beneficial mutation to become fixed, hence neo-darwinism does not work on the basis of small incremental changes, but rather rapid jumps relatively speaking, followed by longer periods of little or no change.

[Tsippy]

So we'd have no trouble in the middle east, unrestricted autobahns, possibly have colonies on the Moon / Mars, no Alan Sugar........ sounds good

[Twincam16]

JB! said:

rudecherub said:

rich1231 said:

Twincam16 said:

ZesPak said:

joe_90 said:

Prob have humans on Mars by now..

I don't know why everybody thinks the technological progress would be so high.
Especially if they say the "earth", meaning there is little or no competition (apart from some rebellion movements), so no need for technological advancement.

We would, however, not become dumber every generation to come.

Perhaps, but due to the 'pure-breeding' ideals, we'd succumb to crippling genetic conditions and potentially fatal birth defects relating to the lack of genetic diversity within a few centuries.

Not across a large population base you wouldnt.

True - reversion to the mean.

to create an ubermensch would have to be a very controlled selective breeding project, and over a number of generations, but we only have to look a domesticated animals to get an idea of what natural genetic engineering can achieve.

so you'd get an equivalent "deaf dalmation" thing with humans? as in blone hair, blue eyes and no sense of smell or something?

Yeah, that sort of thing. I can't remember which academic it was, but I read quite a comprehensive biological explanation of the reasons why the 'Reich that will last for 1000 years' wouldn't have got past 500 without becoming so ill it couldn't defend or rule itself.

You know these remote 'lost tribes of the amazon' and suchlike, that die out after they all succumb to sickle-cell anaemia and similar inherited blood diseases? Imagine that on a mass scale, ironically brought about through rigid militaristic enforcement with infringements punishable by death.

[ZesPak]

Twincam16 said:

Yeah, that sort of thing. I can't remember which academic it was, but I read quite a comprehensive biological explanation of the reasons why the 'Reich that will last for 1000 years' wouldn't have got past 500 without becoming so ill it couldn't defend or rule itself.

You know these remote 'lost tribes of the amazon' and suchlike, that die out after they all succumb to sickle-cell anaemia and similar inherited blood diseases? Imagine that on a mass scale, ironically brought about through rigid militaristic enforcement with infringements punishable by death.

It's about population size. We're talking about drastic decrease of the population, but still retaining hundreds of millions.

Imagine the UK, half the people removed. You won't notice a devolution, especially not if a lot of the weak/stupid are removed.

[rudecherub]

Take the fox population ( hunting with dogs was something the Nazi's banned ) when they were hunted with hounds the process was quite selective, targeting the older. sick, or weak examples.

snaring, gassing and shooting is not only more cruel, but less selective.

The urban fox is smaller, lives a shorter life, and is much less afraid of people - it's arguably on it's way to becoming domesticated. Currently the favoured theory regarding dogs is that they began like the urban fox which is like the feral dogs of say India, wild but unafraid of man, in time man took the least fearful but most cute, and began to actively select certain traits.

[Twincam16]

olly22n said:

ZesPak said:

Twincam16 said:

Yeah, that sort of thing. I can't remember which academic it was, but I read quite a comprehensive biological explanation of the reasons why the 'Reich that will last for 1000 years' wouldn't have got past 500 without becoming so ill it couldn't defend or rule itself.

You know these remote 'lost tribes of the amazon' and suchlike, that die out after they all succumb to sickle-cell anaemia and similar inherited blood diseases? Imagine that on a mass scale, ironically brought about through rigid militaristic enforcement with infringements punishable by death.

It's about population size. We're talking about drastic decrease of the population, but still retaining hundreds of millions.

Imagine the UK, half the people removed. You won't notice a devolution, especially not if a lot of the weak/stupid are removed.

that would be a lot more than half

It's also worth pointing out that the Nazis banished or killed some of their greatest scientists because they were Jewish, or gay, or communists, so many of the innovations and science we associate with the second half of the twentieth century, popularised by America, would never have been discovered, or perhaps not as effectively.

[anonymous-user]

Twincam16 said:

excel789 said:

rudecherub said:

There are lots and lots of alt history stories dealing with this in various ways, Harris's Fatherland is probably the most well known recent one.

I'd also say Phillip K Dick's the Man in the High Castle is a worthy mention.

Len Dieghton did SS GB IIRC.



http://io9.com/5579372/great-moments-in-alternate-... is a good starting place for some of them

Also I am awaiting 'Iron Sky' which looks great fun.

Nazi flying saucers come back from the Moon.

This is worth a read as well

Edited by excel789 on Wednesday 11th August 18:44

Is that what the book proposes? Hitler transporting missiles around on the back of a Vespa?

No

[MK4 Slowride]

172ff said:

He wouldn't be on our screens for sure!

Well and truly fired, so to speak.

That'd mean no Amstrad and no Arkanoid!

Twincam16 said:

Steamer said:

Any body that has been to Prora knows the holidays would have been pants:

photos of Hitler's holiday park

It's like a cross between Butlins and Cherynobl isn't it?

Looks uber council.

Edited by MK4 Slowride on Thursday 12th August 19:43

[AJS-]

I'd have a better job.