Depression

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Discussion

digger_R

1,807 posts

205 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
Prof Prolapse said:
I did just Google it, you're right it was easy to find information.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cp.1202...

This paper and several others claim you're at best, deluded.

He's probably defensive because you are misleading vulnerable people for financial gain. Personally I don't actually doubt your good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with them.
Please feel free to back this up with as much evidence as you have.

Again, I doubt that my personal approach has anything to do with your agitation, so I'm not interested in taking it personally.
I wish you all the best in your healing process.

Like many things, you'll be able to find many articles for and against many avenues of healing. I've had acupuncture on a twisted knee whilst out in Asia, which helped heal a recurring injury in 2 weeks, which typically takes around 8 with traditional therapy I've received in Europe. If I were to trust the numerous articles that attempt to discredit it as a form of therapy, I would never have tried and succeeded with it.

There are a whole range of healing modalities out there, way more than Western science has investigated in depth. Which doesn't invalidate the effectiveness of the results.
Again, if you're genuinely interested in the results - do your own depth research with an open mind. Or go along to a group session somewhere - there are plenty out there.
All the best!

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
digger_R said:
Please feel free to back this up with as much evidence as you have.

Again, I doubt that my personal approach has anything to do with your agitation, so I'm not interested in taking it personally.
I wish you all the best in your healing process.

Like many things, you'll be able to find many articles for and against many avenues of healing. I've had acupuncture on a twisted knee whilst out in Asia, which helped heal a recurring injury in 2 weeks, which typically takes around 8 with traditional therapy I've received in Europe. If I were to trust the numerous articles that attempt to discredit it as a form of therapy, I would never have tried and succeeded with it.

There are a whole range of healing modalities out there, way more than Western science has investigated in depth. Which doesn't invalidate the effectiveness of the results.
Again, if you're genuinely interested in the results - do your own depth research with an open mind. Or go along to a group session somewhere - there are plenty out there.
All the best!
I'm glad you're taking it in a mature way, and again it isn't personal, I'm a blunt but not a mean person.

In your first line (I've put it in bold) you have exposed a common misunderstanding as to why these therapies don't work, and why people like yourself can convince themselves they do.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, no evidence exists that supports your alternative therapy's claims. So we can only rationally conclude it doesn't work, otherwise you could demonstrate it. That is why the Cochrane library contains to reference to this, and why papers such as I have already provided demonstrate it is no more effective than a placebo.

If you mean by "attempts to discredit", you mean "attempts to disprove", again you misunderstand. When working on drugs good projects are designed to disprove, not demonstrate, the effectiveness of their pharmaceutical products. That is how you demonstrate something works in medicine. You set up your hypothesis, then you spend the next eight years trying to smash it down. If it still stands up, then you know you might be on to something. Alternative medicines never survive this process, and if they do, they cease to be alternative medicine and "become medicine".

Regarding your anecdote about leg healing in two weeks rather than eight, it's both an anecdote, and you have no way of knowing it would have taken eight with evidence based medicine, so it's not demonstrative of anything.

I have an open mind. I actually work in medical research and have even worked for not for profit organisations, but I do not have a mind so open that my brain falls out. But if you have real credible evidence, you should present it, not here but to a reputable independent journal, because not only will you likely become a millionaire overnight, you will probably stand to win a Nobel prize, and further help people all over the world with your techniques.

...Because as of yet, none of your similar practitioners have managed to do so.






digger_R

1,807 posts

205 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
I don't want this to be 10 pages of each others quotes, the bit that I was asking you to support with evidence was this as it's completely baseless -
" He's probably defensive because you are misleading vulnerable people for financial gain."

But anyhow, back on topic - While I have a couple of dusty scientific degrees to my name, I'm not interested in presenting anything to a scientific journal - it just doesn't push my buttons. Becoming a millionaire overnight would probably make life more comfortable though. There are people out there doing all kinds of research into body mind integration and writing various scientific papers on it, I'm happy to leave it to them. I'm certain in the coming years the whole domain will become much more widely accepted in the mainstream. In my personal experience in the Netherlands and Germany, healthcare is much more progressive in that respect.

People have massively different motivations, one thing I'm fairly sure we both agree on, is the will to improve our collective mental and emotional health. My view is that there are many roads that lead there!

“The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved; it is a reality to be experienced.”
―Jacobus Johannes Leeuw

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
digger_R said:
I don't want this to be 10 pages of each others quotes, the bit that I was asking you to support with evidence was this as it's completely baseless -
" He's probably defensive because you are misleading vulnerable people for financial gain."

But anyhow, back on topic - While I have a couple of dusty scientific degrees to my name, I'm not interested in presenting anything to a scientific journal - it just doesn't push my buttons. Becoming a millionaire overnight would probably make life more comfortable though. There are people out there doing all kinds of research into body mind integration and writing various scientific papers on it, I'm happy to leave it to them. I'm certain in the coming years the whole domain will become much more widely accepted in the mainstream. In my personal experience in the Netherlands and Germany, healthcare is much more progressive in that respect.

People have massively different motivations, one thing I'm fairly sure we both agree on, is the will to improve our collective mental and emotional health. My view is that there are many roads that lead there!

“The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved; it is a reality to be experienced.”
?Jacobus Johannes Leeuw
Well, you don't need me to expand on it, the point stands until the unlikely day this therapy is shown to work, or you do it for free.

I have a science degree as well, as well as many years experience in this field, as well as personal interest in debunking pseudoscience, but ultimately it's not relevant. Rational thinking alone shows that burden of proof rests it's head with you and your peers and it is not satisfied. You may leave it to them, but after many years they appear to have demonstrably failed.

It may become increasingly accepted but science is not done by consensus. I agree there are many roads to better health, but they are built by reason, irrational thinking and self-delusion only detracts from real solutions to problems, and encourages a distrust of modern medicine which is potentially dangerous, particularly in the mental health setting.

"Isn't the garden beautiful enough, without having to believe there at fairies in it?" - Richard Dawkins,





digger_R

1,807 posts

205 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Prof Prolapse said:
Well, you don't need me to expand on it, the point stands until the unlikely day this therapy is shown to work, or you do it for free.
Rational thinking alone shows that burden of proof rests it's head with you and your peers and it is not satisfied. You may leave it to them, but after many years they appear to have demonstrably failed.
I agree there are many roads to better health, but they are built by reason, irrational thinking and self-delusion only detracts from real solutions to problems, and encourages a distrust of modern medicine which is potentially dangerous, particularly in the mental health setting.
Yes, all of my work in this field is done for free or goes to support NGOs in Peru and India.
Simply because you don't participate in a game it doesn't mean you've failed, it just means you put your energy in a different direction. The self delusion part is simply conjecture on your part - again different perspectives. Understanding and detaching from your viewpoint is fundamental in understanding that's it's simply a perspective - unless you're so identified with it you view it as 'the' only perspective.

This discussion is best placed elsewhere as it detracts from this thread - needless to say, I stand fully behind what my personal practice and I've seen the damage that modern medicine can do - so I'd say a healthy mistrust is advisable (evidence may be anecdotal but I trust my own experience).



Edited by digger_R on Saturday 7th March 07:26

crazy about cars

4,454 posts

168 months

Saturday 7th March 2015
quotequote all
quiraing said:
Interesting prog on bipolar ch4 RIGHT NOW. Sorry for late post.
Watched it as well and really gain a good inside on bipolar condition. I can relate to the "low" part as that's the only part I seem to go through.
Sometimes it's so bad it just makes you physically unwell and unable to function normally - just want to curl up in the bed and shut out everything. I don't have suicidal thoughts but it is very frustrating when physically I'm fine it's the just mental part that's bogging me down.

Mental health team appointment coming Friday, looking forward to it and really want to discuss more about my worrying (anxiety). I've tried CBT methods but sometimes it's just too over powering so thinking of exploring medication side.
The only meds I'm on now is Concerta which is an ADHD med which seems to help with my depression better than AD drugs.

On a recent night out I've opened up to a work colleague about my mental condition. It was an interesting conversation but I feel there is still a big stigma surrounding this issue. There seems to be a growing concern for the authenticity of colleagues taking days off and sick leave citing depression. I do see his point and that's why I don't open up as I am afraid to be judged.

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 7th March 13:21

Petrolhead95

7,043 posts

153 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
Obviously spoke too soon. No sleep the last two nights, barely eaten, smoking like a chimney, pretty much already drunk at half 10 in the morning. Sick of this...

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
digger_R said:
Yes, all of my work in this field is done for free or goes to support NGOs in Peru and India.
Simply because you don't participate in a game it doesn't mean you've failed, it just means you put your energy in a different direction. The self delusion part is simply conjecture on your part - again different perspectives. Understanding and detaching from your viewpoint is fundamental in understanding that's it's simply a perspective - unless you're so identified with it you view it as 'the' only perspective.

This discussion is best placed elsewhere as it detracts from this thread - needless to say, I stand fully behind what my personal practice and I've seen the damage that modern medicine can do - so I'd say a healthy mistrust is advisable (evidence may be anecdotal but I trust my own experience).
There's no game, no alternative perspectives, and no differences of opinion. No one is asking your colleagues and you, to do anything unreasonable. Just to take a small amount of time to show you're not a charlatan.

Modern medicine can fail, but usually this is on the practitioner level, as it can in alternative medicine. It's fundamental base however is solid, as it's formed of evidence-based medicine. The beautiful thing is that it evolves and is transparent, those skeptical of it, can see its origins, and are free to question it, and advance it. As I keep saying, no alternative medicine withstands the same scrutiny. So if one were to broadly mistrust one of the two practices, perhaps the esoteric unproven one would make more sense.

By contrast to the transparency we see in evidence-based medicine, alternative medicines are also characteristically rigid. You mention long fallen cultures, because they still exist with one foot firmly in the opaque past as if it proves the strength of an idea but in reality this is the opposite. A refusal to remove the veil of mysticism, is simply a trick. This is an attempt to move the goal posts as if these ideas are somehow immune to scientific inquiry, when actually nothing is beyond the view of reason.

I agree we shouldn't go on all day. But one last thing, you mention "detachment from a viewpoint", but then you go on to contradict yourself. You should not trust you own experience. That is one of the most fundamental principles of medical science, and rational thought. Your perspective skews reality to suit ideas, your eyes lie, your ego lies, and conclusions you draw from this incorrect data can only therefore be right with an element of luck. The concept of impartiality really is the heart of any discovered truth. As for my alleged reliance on an existing viewpoint, I can assure you this does not exist. I merely need someone to prove it to me, before I believe, but the weight of evidence out there slams, alternative medicicne. But my mind remains open to it, should they take the time to prove it.














andy-xr

13,204 posts

203 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
Petrolhead95 said:
Obviously spoke too soon. No sleep the last two nights, barely eaten, smoking like a chimney, pretty much already drunk at half 10 in the morning. Sick of this...
Bit of self medication? I'm sure you already have some level of rationality about it, otherwise you wouldnt be talking about it in a sense of not being happy about it. What's driving it? Feeling or general fk it so what?

twing

4,996 posts

130 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
Petrolhead95 said:
Obviously spoke too soon. No sleep the last two nights, barely eaten, smoking like a chimney, pretty much already drunk at half 10 in the morning. Sick of this...
Same as that chap, except I'm at work so haven't been able to drink. Woke up feeling st and currently sweating at my desk, heart pound for absolutely no apparent reason.... it's pissing me off too. Chin up though fella! thumbup


Edited by twing on Monday 9th March 14:40

Petrolhead95

7,043 posts

153 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
andy-xr said:
Bit of self medication? I'm sure you already have some level of rationality about it, otherwise you wouldnt be talking about it in a sense of not being happy about it. What's driving it? Feeling or general fk it so what?
The main thing at the moment is that the guy my best friend is seeing doesn't like me which is driving a wedge between us. Making me feel like absolute crap. Probably sounds very over the top but, quite honestly, she's the only decent thing I have in my life at the moment, and the thought of losing her opens me up to some quite horrible thoughts.

andy-xr

13,204 posts

203 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
Petrolhead95 said:
The main thing at the moment is that the guy my best friend is seeing doesn't like me which is driving a wedge between us. Making me feel like absolute crap. Probably sounds very over the top but, quite honestly, she's the only decent thing I have in my life at the moment, and the thought of losing that opens me up to some quite horrible thoughts.
He probably thinks you're cockblocking him, or trying to. I guess you cant control others feelings though, only your own

Petrolhead95

7,043 posts

153 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
andy-xr said:
He probably thinks you're cockblocking him, or trying to. I guess you cant control others feelings though, only your own
I can see where he's coming from, although he knows nothing is going on. Spent most of the weekend with her, he didn't like that. Taking her away to London for a few days next week, he definitely doesn't like that, despite it was booked before he even knew her. It's just the small things that can send me over the edge.

quiraing

1,649 posts

138 months

Thursday 12th March 2015
quotequote all
Petrolhead95 said:
Obviously spoke too soon. No sleep the last two nights, barely eaten, smoking like a chimney, pretty much already drunk at half 10 in the morning. Sick of this...
Easy to say but, avoid alcohol. Try the meds.

quiraing

1,649 posts

138 months

Thursday 12th March 2015
quotequote all
crazy about cars said:
quiraing said:
Interesting prog on bipolar ch4 RIGHT NOW. Sorry for late post.
Watched it as well and really gain a good inside on bipolar condition. I can relate to the "low" part as that's the only part I seem to go through.
Sometimes it's so bad it just makes you physically unwell and unable to function normally - just want to curl up in the bed and shut out everything. I don't have suicidal thoughts but it is very frustrating when physically I'm fine it's the just mental part that's bogging me down.

Mental health team appointment coming Friday, looking forward to it and really want to discuss more about my worrying (anxiety). I've tried CBT methods but sometimes it's just too over powering so thinking of exploring medication side.
The only meds I'm on now is Concerta which is an ADHD med which seems to help with my depression better than AD drugs.

On a recent night out I've opened up to a work colleague about my mental condition. It was an interesting conversation but I feel there is still a big stigma surrounding this issue. There seems to be a growing concern for the authenticity of colleagues taking days off and sick leave citing depression. I do see his point and that's why I don't open up as I am afraid to be judged.

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 7th March 13:21
I know exactly how that all feels, went through it for years.
I think it's called unipolar.

Have been on the meds for a while and they've worked for me, along with mindfulness and living in the now. The past is water under the bridge and no one knows how the future will pan out, go with the flow and dont be worried or afraid. The best laid plans of mice and men . .

Have found, through trial and error, the meds which work for me and keep me happy and functioning and normal. Most of the time. Occasional short blip which I realise will pass.
Meds affect people differently but I am currently on 100mg of Sertraline for depression, 300mg of Lyrica (Pregabalin) for anxiety, and 15 to 30mg of Zopiclone to get a good night's sleep. Works for me.

Also, avoid alcohol.Ok to have few glasses on saturday eve but that's all. No alcohol during the week. That was difficult for a start but gets to be good after a while.


If anyone has questions re my experiences with various meds just ask. There are lots of little tips and tricks which can help too

People who have not experienced the power and depth and intensity of depression can't comprehend what it's like.


Edited by quiraing on Thursday 12th March 04:57

crazy about cars

4,454 posts

168 months

Thursday 12th March 2015
quotequote all
Hmmm, spoke to doctor recently and he recommended Sertraline too. I've asked about anxiety medication but he said Sertraline is also an anxiety medication as all ADs are. Anyway I've asked if I can be referred to CBT or counselling again and he put an email out. Asked him how long roughly would the referral come through he answered "How long is a piece of string?". Anyway had bad experience with this young doctor, he is not the usual doctor I see and he seems to be more interested in filling forms than talking to me.

quiraing said:
I know exactly how that all feels, went through it for years.
I think it's called unipolar.

Have been on the meds for a while and they've worked for me, along with mindfulness and living in the now. The past is water under the bridge and no one knows how the future will pan out, go with the flow and dont be worried or afraid. The best laid plans of mice and men . .

Have found, through trial and error, the meds which work for me and keep me happy and functioning and normal. Most of the time. Occasional short blip which I realise will pass.
Meds affect people differently but I am currently on 100mg of Sertraline for depression, 300mg of Lyrica (Pregabalin) for anxiety, and 15 to 30mg of Zopiclone to get a good night's sleep. Works for me.

Also, avoid alcohol.Ok to have few glasses on saturday eve but that's all. No alcohol during the week. That was difficult for a start but gets to be good after a while.


If anyone has questions re my experiences with various meds just ask. There are lots of little tips and tricks which can help too

People who have not experienced the power and depth and intensity of depression can't comprehend what it's like.


Edited by quiraing on Thursday 12th March 04:57

richtea78

5,574 posts

157 months

Friday 13th March 2015
quotequote all
That's imtersting about Lyrica, I used to take it for my Crohns and found it horrible. The withdrawal was particularly bad. It also made me constantly hungry I found!

quiraing

1,649 posts

138 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
richtea78 said:
That's imtersting about Lyrica, I used to take it for my Crohns and found it horrible. The withdrawal was particularly bad. It also made me constantly hungry I found!
Yes, Lyrica can have that effect. It's a bonus for anyone who is mega deeply depressed and has no appetite. But, . . . it may not be ideal for everyone.

Can I ask, why withdrawal?

richtea78

5,574 posts

157 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
I had really bad mood swings while stopping it. I would become extremely angry and aggressive for no reason. It lasted a couple of weeks. Normally I'm fairly chilled out but this was weird

jogger1976

1,251 posts

125 months

Sunday 15th March 2015
quotequote all
I've had depression for as long as I can remember. I'm now 38.

I'm pretty sure it all stems from the age of 7, when out of the blue, 2 weeks before Christmas, my mum was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer and was given 3 months to live. She somehow managed to survive for 10 traumatic and debilitating years, via aggressive chemo/radio therapy and fantastic care from NHS staff and McMillan nurses.

I remember up until that point I had led a rather quiet, but fairly happy life riding my bike and playing football with my mates. From that moment, it was like a switch had been flicked in my head, and I became a very withdrawn and nervous child, wanting to spend increasing amounts of time alone and thinking dark thoughts. I didn't really tell anyone about this, as my family was slowly imploding under the strain of managing my mum's illness and I felt it would be selfish to burden them. So I kept it a secret until my mum's death at 17, when I had a massive freak out moment, ran away from home and tried to kill myself.

Following some treatment, I was OK (but not brilliant)for a few years, until a serious of events at work and in my personal life caused another breakdown and suicide attempt, which resulted in me having 9 weeks off of work.
The years since then have been mixed, with some good moments, e.g., relationships / good friendships and some very low/bleak periods when I just wanted it all to end so I wouldn't have to face another day of feeling st.

Reading this, you might think I'm a thoroughly miserable git who you would walk across the street to avoid. Yet strangely, I'm told that I'm a funny, engaging bloke and pretty good company. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have much control on what "me" shows up on any given day/time.frown

I bloody hate depression!frown