Minimalist running.
Discussion
The jiffle king said:
not personally, but a chap I work with has run in the vibram 5 fingers and really likes them Took him some getting used to, but he says it works really well
Two of my friends run about in the vibrams and they too say its pretty good. Like posters above have said (and something I never knew) they make you run on front/ball of your foot and not heel first.would be interesting to try, but I hate running!
Yeah I do about half an hour running per week at the gym, but I own:
a pair of vibram five fingers
a pair of nike air rifts
a pair of fila skeletoes
The skeletoes are the best combination of trainer and barefoot shoe I've tried - these are them:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=fila+skeletoes&am...
I'm going to have to get another pair as the first are going to be worn all this coming spring and summer. The rifts aren't bad either, but they're just for casual use.
The vibrams are quirky to get used to, but once they've been on for half an hour or more you forget they're on at all.
a pair of vibram five fingers
a pair of nike air rifts
a pair of fila skeletoes
The skeletoes are the best combination of trainer and barefoot shoe I've tried - these are them:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=fila+skeletoes&am...
I'm going to have to get another pair as the first are going to be worn all this coming spring and summer. The rifts aren't bad either, but they're just for casual use.
The vibrams are quirky to get used to, but once they've been on for half an hour or more you forget they're on at all.
They made an appearance at the golden globes too, to much controversy.
http://fashionista.com/2012/01/shailene-woodley-we...
http://fashionista.com/2012/01/shailene-woodley-we...
In fairness, I think the people calling them a fad are runners, the people defending them are people who run - being a triathlete, I saw it coming early (and bought it hook line and sinker) with Newtons a few years ago - fad is maybe the wrong word, but the clever marketing around them has certainly done the job.
The idea that forefoot striking = good and heelstriking = bad is, without to put too fine a point on it, completely wrong - listen to any good coach (like Brett Sutton), hell, listen to Geb and they will tell you that forcing a footstrike is the wrong thing to do.
Ignoring anything else about them, 5 fingers make you look like a complete cock-tip and also come equipped with a special function that requires you to tell anyone around you about how good they are at every possible opportunity
The idea that forefoot striking = good and heelstriking = bad is, without to put too fine a point on it, completely wrong - listen to any good coach (like Brett Sutton), hell, listen to Geb and they will tell you that forcing a footstrike is the wrong thing to do.
Ignoring anything else about them, 5 fingers make you look like a complete cock-tip and also come equipped with a special function that requires you to tell anyone around you about how good they are at every possible opportunity
Parsnip said:
5 fingers make you look like a complete cock-tip and also come equipped with a special function that requires you to tell anyone around you about how good they are at every possible opportunity
I've never met anyone with a pair of 5 fingers. How do I know this? Because if I had, they'd have told me about them. Parsnip said:
forcing a footstrike is the wrong thing to do.
This was why I was put the point across about my daughter. Is it only forcing a foot strike due to years, decades? of that being the most comfortable footstrike due to the footwear? My OH sister used to be a dancer and even with cushioned trainers you can still see her land on her toes for most of what she does.As a coach, to someone who runs as their sport, I would take a long time considering asking them to change. If it works, it works. I would though, consider doing work to strengthen the foot (a requirement of a forefoot strike) if the athlete was returning to after an injury and therefore couldn't do mileage on the foot / feet.
Interesting ideas, I feel. Similar to the butterfly effect.
Parsnip said:
In fairness, I think the people calling them a fad are runners, the people defending them are people who run - being a triathlete, I saw it coming early (and bought it hook line and sinker) with Newtons a few years ago - fad is maybe the wrong word, but the clever marketing around them has certainly done the job.
The idea that forefoot striking = good and heelstriking = bad is, without to put too fine a point on it, completely wrong - listen to any good coach (like Brett Sutton), hell, listen to Geb and they will tell you that forcing a footstrike is the wrong thing to do.
Ignoring anything else about them, 5 fingers make you look like a complete cock-tip and also come equipped with a special function that requires you to tell anyone around you about how good they are at every possible opportunity
So... dont force a particular style? just do whatever is natural. but either style is not necessarily wrong?The idea that forefoot striking = good and heelstriking = bad is, without to put too fine a point on it, completely wrong - listen to any good coach (like Brett Sutton), hell, listen to Geb and they will tell you that forcing a footstrike is the wrong thing to do.
Ignoring anything else about them, 5 fingers make you look like a complete cock-tip and also come equipped with a special function that requires you to tell anyone around you about how good they are at every possible opportunity
I have issues with running.. usually pain in the shins and knees and I dont have the strongest of legs despite looking like I have marathon runners legs. I put this down to swimming... swam since I was 5, to a highish level, pretty much the only exercise I do.
We of course have elements of weight and core training and at my old club we used to cross training which involved a bit of gymnastics and running around in the park. I always struggled with the running though, swimming is no/low impact so I put my pains down to just not being accustomed to prolonged hammering of the joints.
That and swim fitness is completely different to running fitness. Swimming tends to major on the upper body and you don't use your legs in the same manner as running. So you don't necessarily build your CV system to deal with the biggest muscles in your body leaning on the energy pedal all at once. Then there is the breathing, you spend half the time in the water holding your breath... and if you don't think about it, you find yourself doing that when you run as well when there's no need to be holding your breath! On the off chance I have to run, I have to actually think about breathing!
May try this fore foot running. Its certainly how I tend to put my feet down when I find myself having to scurry about. When I have gone for runs on purpose in the past I have always gone for the long stride, heel first... maybe that's where its going bad... maybe I just need to do it enough to break through the pain barrier.
Otispunkmeyer said:
So... dont force a particular style? just do whatever is natural. but either style is not necessarily wrong?
May try this fore foot running. Its certainly how I tend to put my feet down when I find myself having to scurry about. When I have gone for runs on purpose in the past I have always gone for the long stride, heel first... maybe that's where its going bad... maybe I just need to do it enough to break through the pain barrier.
No, I wouldn't force a style - Personally, if sprinting or going quickly, I will be forefoot striking, for longer stuff it will be more of a midfoot strike - I have horrid form, but it is better to have horrid form that gets me round a full marathon than perfect form for 20 miles and then giving up because my legs are shot.May try this fore foot running. Its certainly how I tend to put my feet down when I find myself having to scurry about. When I have gone for runs on purpose in the past I have always gone for the long stride, heel first... maybe that's where its going bad... maybe I just need to do it enough to break through the pain barrier.
Your second point is more critical - it doesn't really matter what bit of your foot hits the ground first, but it does matter where it hits in relation to your body - should be right underneath you. This is where a lot of people get it wrong - they assume that heel striking is bad because they are heel striking in front of their body and think the change to a forefoot strike has fixed the issue, when it is more likely the fact they are striking in the right place.
Parsnip said:
The idea that forefoot striking = good and heelstriking = bad is, without to put too fine a point on it, completely wrong - listen to any good coach (like Brett Sutton), hell, listen to Geb and they will tell you that forcing a footstrike is the wrong thing to do.
But you are missing the point. By wearing nothing, or vibrams, you're not forcing a change at all. The change comes naturally, you don't even think about it and this is the argument behind the minimalist running scene. Everyone's natural strike is forefront, it's by wearing trainers that changes people's strike to a heel strike. andycambo said:
But you are missing the point. By wearing nothing, or vibrams, you're not forcing a change at all. The change comes naturally, you don't even think about it and this is the argument behind the minimalist running scene. Everyone's natural strike is forefront, it's by wearing trainers that changes people's strike to a heel strike.
I would love to read your source for the bit in bold - it isn't true - replace the word "Everyone" with "Most people's" and it is - plenty of (very good) runners will heelstrike in racing flats and plenty of people will mid/heelstrike when barefoot. Secondly, it being natural doesn't make it correct - I have hypermobility in my knees and ankles along with a severe overpronation - my natural barefoot strike is a mess and would cause me a fair bit of injury if I ran any sort of distance. Thirdly, there is no proof whatsoever that one kind of footstrike is better than another which is kind of my point.I run offroad, typically half to marathon length. I have had Vibrams for over a year and have adapted slowly and quite well. I still can't do more than 2 hours in them, so have bought a couple of pairs of Innov-8 which seem to do the trick - Bare Grips for muddy stuff and F-Lite for harder surfaces.
I have had no joint problems in the year. Other changes include a shorter lighter step and less fatigue on longer runs. I'm probably not quite so fast downhills though.
Going back to my old New Balance & Mizuno shoes feels really strange now, so I'll stick with the flatties and put up with people thinking I'm wierd wearing the 'monkey feet'.
I have had no joint problems in the year. Other changes include a shorter lighter step and less fatigue on longer runs. I'm probably not quite so fast downhills though.
Going back to my old New Balance & Mizuno shoes feels really strange now, so I'll stick with the flatties and put up with people thinking I'm wierd wearing the 'monkey feet'.
Frankeh said:
Parsnip said:
5 fingers make you look like a complete cock-tip and also come equipped with a special function that requires you to tell anyone around you about how good they are at every possible opportunity
I've never met anyone with a pair of 5 fingers. How do I know this? Because if I had, they'd have told me about them. 
As for your concern about looking like "a complete cock-tip" there's plenty of other zero drop shoes around, minimalist runners don't have to wear five finger shoes. Nike, Saucony, New Balance and INOV-8 are all making great looking zero drop shoes.
Parsnip said:
I would love to read your source for the bit in bold - it isn't true - replace the word "Everyone" with "Most people's" and it is - plenty of (very good) runners will heelstrike in racing flats and plenty of people will mid/heelstrike when barefoot. Secondly, it being natural doesn't make it correct - I have hypermobility in my knees and ankles along with a severe overpronation - my natural barefoot strike is a mess and would cause me a fair bit of injury if I ran any sort of distance. Thirdly, there is no proof whatsoever that one kind of footstrike is better than another which is kind of my point.
First I must say that I've meaning to say mid-foot rather than forefont.Okay, the majority of the world's people. There are many successful runners that heel strike but that doesn't mean it is the right way and advances in technology are starting to show that isn't the most efficient way to run. If someone was to barefoot run with a heel strike for more than 10km I hate to see what state their joints would be in - I lasted 1-2kms before it was too painful.
I am not trying to say that barefoot is better. What I am trying to say is that barefoot is more natural, to the roots of human evolution and that people have only started heel striking because of the introduction of running trainers with big heels.
Some reading
2009 article http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=157...
An slight exagerrated example of the differences http://www.newtonrunning.com/run-better/optimal-ru...
And the most famous example of barefoot runners http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnwIKZhrdt4. The book Born to Run talks about the Tarahumara in great detail and is worth a read if this interests you.
Parsnip said:
The idea that forefoot striking = good and heelstriking = bad is, without to put too fine a point on it, completely wrong - listen to any good coach (like Brett Sutton), hell, listen to Geb and they will tell you that forcing a footstrike is the wrong thing to do.
So why then is forcing a heel strike the right thing to do? Most people wouldn't heel strike naturally, nobody can run around barefoot heel striking, you'd be in a lot of pain. Look at your feet and legs they're not made for heel striking. Why deviate from the natural in the first place? I understand we need something to stop getting cut feet but why actually force a heel strike? Why are shoes that force a heal strike and deviate from the natural better?el stovey said:
So the bad thing about 5 fingers is that everyone that uses them thinks they are great.
As for your concern about looking like "a complete cock-tip" there's plenty of other zero drop shoes around, minimalist runners don't have to wear five finger shoes. Nike, Saucony, New Balance and INOV-8 are all making great looking zero drop shoes.
It was meant as a joke, hence the smiley As for your concern about looking like "a complete cock-tip" there's plenty of other zero drop shoes around, minimalist runners don't have to wear five finger shoes. Nike, Saucony, New Balance and INOV-8 are all making great looking zero drop shoes.
. If they work for people, then great, but to me they are very similar to Crocs - they look ridiculous and people who wear them constantly tell you how good they are - I would go so far to say preachy andycambo said:
Okay, the majority of the world's people. There are many successful runners that heel strike but that doesn't mean it is the right way and advances in technology are starting to show that isn't the most efficient way to run.
My point is that it doesn't mean it is the wrong way either - the waters are very muddy with regards to data, but when the marathon world record was held for a long time by a heelstiker before being broken last year by another heelstriker, I can't help but smile when I hear an average runner say that heelstriking is wrong and not the way we are supposed to be running. Advances in technology? Like Newtons? Now why would a company that makes a shoe exclusively for forefoot running be saying it is the most efficient way to run?Why are there no top marathoners running in barefoot shoes? Look at the flats Geb wears - very low drop racing flats - they may be contributing slightly to his footstrike, but the majority of it is him - we are not talking big clumpy trainers here...
el stovey said:
So why then is forcing a heel strike the right thing to do? Most people wouldn't heel strike naturally, nobody can run around barefoot heel striking, you'd be in a lot of pain. Look at your feet and legs they're not made for heel striking. Why deviate from the natural in the first place? I understand we need something to stop getting cut feet but why actually force a heel strike? Why are shoes that force a heal strike and deviate from the natural better?
They aren't better - I never said they were, but the idea that natural running is the way to do it is kind of wrong - some runners will do all their mileage in racing flats and have no problems, but the majority will need some support, some cushioning or both.My shoes don't really force me to heelstrike - if I am doing 4.40/km in a marathon, I will be midfoot striking, If i speed up to a 3.30/km 5km pace, then I will get up onto my toes - same with running downhill/uphill. I can see that wearing shoes does shift your footstrike backwards, but it isn't as black and white as "I am a fore/mid/heel striker". My biggest argument with the whole thing is the idea because it is natural, it is right - for me certainly it isn't - If i went for a run barefoot, it would break everything.
Still, it's an interesting debate, whatever works for you works for you I guess. I'm off for a run in the snow
I'd suggest that looking to someone winnning marathons as an example of how to run for fun/fitness is pointless. They are 1 in a million with regards every aspect of their abilities and the way they run is designed to cover ground in a way the human body was never meant to. They are elite sportsmen, normally weighing less than most kids, with considerations on how to win coming way ahead of whats best for their knees when they turn 50.
All indications are that the human evolved to run at a nice steady pace over pretty reasonable distances. I cant see why we shouldnt be able to do that today without "enhancements" like supportive shoes. If you go into a "sports shoe shop" and listen to the advice you'd think 90% of humans have gone from being able to run across the African plains a few hundread thousand years ago to not being able to get to their car without their feet over/under pronating! Why is it just the feet that seem to need all this help? What other part of the body has become so useless over time???? Who has problems with their hands turning too far when they pick stuff up??? Or needs a neck brace because their head is hypermobile!
All indications are that the human evolved to run at a nice steady pace over pretty reasonable distances. I cant see why we shouldnt be able to do that today without "enhancements" like supportive shoes. If you go into a "sports shoe shop" and listen to the advice you'd think 90% of humans have gone from being able to run across the African plains a few hundread thousand years ago to not being able to get to their car without their feet over/under pronating! Why is it just the feet that seem to need all this help? What other part of the body has become so useless over time???? Who has problems with their hands turning too far when they pick stuff up??? Or needs a neck brace because their head is hypermobile!
Stupid question incoming: ignoring the odd-looking ones with toes, if I changed my running style to not use my heels, why would I pay £5,000,000,000 for flat running shoes when I could buy plimsolls (or whatever they are called) from Tesco for £4?
Are the likes of Nike really taking the piss now?
Are the likes of Nike really taking the piss now?
Edited by Hoofy on Friday 27th January 12:45
Hoofy said:
Stupid question incoming: ignoring the odd-looking ones with toes, if I changed my running style to not use my heels, why would I pay £5,000,000,000 for flat running shoes when I could buy plimsolls (or whatever they are called) from Tesco for £4?
Are the likes of Nike really taking the piss now?
Good point.Are the likes of Nike really taking the piss now?
Edited by Hoofy on Friday 27th January 12:45
But my zero drops were £100 and fit like a glove, lace up better than anything I've ever worn (the lace system just creates a perfect even fit) and have never given me a blister. They are also tough and provide good grip and protection. I'm unsure if pumps by George would be as good?
Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff