The weights vs cardio experiment
Discussion
I thought i'd start this thread following on from my experiment which was inspired by this thread - where i've switched from a high-intensity cardio routine with a bit of weights that i've been doing for a number of years, to a full-on weightlifting split routine with minimal cardio (so far none at all).... whilst maintaining the same diet (to be precise, i've added a bit more protein, and dropped some carbs, the net calories haven't changed).
After 4 weeks I have put on just over 7lbs (162lbs to 169lbs)
Based on the caliper tests my body fat % has increased from 6.5% to 8.5% (the belt test confirms - my trousers are tighter
). I reckon of the 7lbs about 3.2lbs is muscle and 3.8lbs of fat.
I'm not surprised by this, but have decided to continue the experiment (it's fun, and i know that my BMR is up from 1720 to 1770 so i think it's too early to draw any actual conclusions)
My first question to the weightlifting gurus out there is this - is there a way i can re-introduce some cardio into my split routine in such a way that it doesn't set back the weight training process?
Is there any harm in doing say a 1 or 2 hour run immediately after training the chest? As long as it's afterwards i'm not depriving the lifting of any glycogen, and it doesn't occur during the rest period from training legs.
After 4 weeks I have put on just over 7lbs (162lbs to 169lbs)
Based on the caliper tests my body fat % has increased from 6.5% to 8.5% (the belt test confirms - my trousers are tighter
). I reckon of the 7lbs about 3.2lbs is muscle and 3.8lbs of fat. I'm not surprised by this, but have decided to continue the experiment (it's fun, and i know that my BMR is up from 1720 to 1770 so i think it's too early to draw any actual conclusions)
My first question to the weightlifting gurus out there is this - is there a way i can re-introduce some cardio into my split routine in such a way that it doesn't set back the weight training process?
Is there any harm in doing say a 1 or 2 hour run immediately after training the chest? As long as it's afterwards i'm not depriving the lifting of any glycogen, and it doesn't occur during the rest period from training legs.
Edited by pilchardthecat on Thursday 17th May 18:01
I think its trial and error and I also think given the amount of different theories out there you should try some different approaches to find what works for you.
I personally find interval training for short periods after a weight session is great for weight loss but I'd not like to go for a long run afterwards as I feel rest is important as is giving the body some proteins/carbs.
The rest period is very important I feel after a weights session so I'd not want to rob the body of that chance by doing lots of cardio.
I'd also alter your diet if you are gaining weight fairly quickly.
I personally find interval training for short periods after a weight session is great for weight loss but I'd not like to go for a long run afterwards as I feel rest is important as is giving the body some proteins/carbs.
The rest period is very important I feel after a weights session so I'd not want to rob the body of that chance by doing lots of cardio.
I'd also alter your diet if you are gaining weight fairly quickly.
As OC says, the myriad of theories can make you boggle. They do me, hence my many questions of the many people in this forum who actually live and breath the different techniques in the threads here.
I have been unable to do my preferred fat burning technique of running recently and so been experimenting with high intensity stuff, circuits for time, circuits for reps, low rest time and maximum effort. These are now after my more normal warm up sets combined with work load sets. My waistline has improved, and on Sunday I'll see if my cardio has improved.
Have you tried the sit down cycle? I like that as an alternative to swimming/rowing if you wish to rest those small upper body muscles?
I have been unable to do my preferred fat burning technique of running recently and so been experimenting with high intensity stuff, circuits for time, circuits for reps, low rest time and maximum effort. These are now after my more normal warm up sets combined with work load sets. My waistline has improved, and on Sunday I'll see if my cardio has improved.
Have you tried the sit down cycle? I like that as an alternative to swimming/rowing if you wish to rest those small upper body muscles?
^ agree.
Doing a 1 or 2 hour run straight afterwards would be detremental to a muscle/strength building programme.
If you want to do cardio, do it 3 hours or so before or afterwards after eating for it or ideally, on a non-weight lifting day (assuming you're doing something like a 3 day split with rest days inbetween - so days 1,3,5 weights, days 2,4 CV, days 6,7 rest).
And appropriately fuel your body before and after, for the type of exercise you're planning on doing.
Doing a 1 or 2 hour run straight afterwards would be detremental to a muscle/strength building programme.
If you want to do cardio, do it 3 hours or so before or afterwards after eating for it or ideally, on a non-weight lifting day (assuming you're doing something like a 3 day split with rest days inbetween - so days 1,3,5 weights, days 2,4 CV, days 6,7 rest).
And appropriately fuel your body before and after, for the type of exercise you're planning on doing.
Now, I don't want to shoot you down in flames, but....
In FOUR WEEKS it's impossible to have put on anywhere near 3.2lbs of muscle. Flat out impossible.
As far as I'm aware, drug-free, lean muscle comes in at about 2lbs / month, with an awesome programme, awesome diet, and perfectly structured rest periods. That's it. Unless you're 7ft tall, and 20 stones already...
But, thats discounting water-retention, glycogen storage, fats, everything. Pure, lean muscle.
If you could put on 3.2lbs in one month, in a year you could conceivably be competing on an amateur bodybuilding stage.
Edited to add - if you are to keep up a cardio programme, it's best to do it on non-weight training days, as others have said. If you do it on weights days, you'll start to negate your training, and you'll end up adding less muscle.
In FOUR WEEKS it's impossible to have put on anywhere near 3.2lbs of muscle. Flat out impossible.
As far as I'm aware, drug-free, lean muscle comes in at about 2lbs / month, with an awesome programme, awesome diet, and perfectly structured rest periods. That's it. Unless you're 7ft tall, and 20 stones already...
But, thats discounting water-retention, glycogen storage, fats, everything. Pure, lean muscle.
If you could put on 3.2lbs in one month, in a year you could conceivably be competing on an amateur bodybuilding stage.
Edited to add - if you are to keep up a cardio programme, it's best to do it on non-weight training days, as others have said. If you do it on weights days, you'll start to negate your training, and you'll end up adding less muscle.
Edited by Chaz9950 on Thursday 17th May 23:33
interesting - i'm basing those numbers on the caliper test. So you are saying that switching to a weights regime from a cardio regime i should expect to put on less muscle mass and more fat? for the same calorie intake
could there be a disproportionate increase in muscle in the first few weeks - i'm not coming at this as a novice but from a shrunk-down-by-800-calories-a-day cardio routine
could there be a disproportionate increase in muscle in the first few weeks - i'm not coming at this as a novice but from a shrunk-down-by-800-calories-a-day cardio routine
Essentially - body fat change = calories in - calories out.
So, if you do more exercise calories than you consume, you will drop in body fat percentage.
It is somewhat easier for most to burn more energy running, than on a weights regime, so you will burn more calories.
However, it's seen as detrimental to muscle development if you are doing a lot of slow and steady CV exercise. From a physiological POV, you don't need to be über strong at lifting weights, to run a marathon... So your body will resist growing in size - it takes less energy for someone weighing 60kgs to run a set distance, than someone weighing 100kgs, to run the same distance.
If you want pure muscle development, then rather than a slow and steady programme of running, you can adopt a high intensity sprinting regime. You need to be stronger to sprint than run steadily, but even so, you don't often see bodybuilders running 9.something 100 meters.. Although the world-class sprinters are built pretty sturdily. At least more so than the marathoners.. Gotta be some kind of indication!
So, if you do more exercise calories than you consume, you will drop in body fat percentage.
It is somewhat easier for most to burn more energy running, than on a weights regime, so you will burn more calories.
However, it's seen as detrimental to muscle development if you are doing a lot of slow and steady CV exercise. From a physiological POV, you don't need to be über strong at lifting weights, to run a marathon... So your body will resist growing in size - it takes less energy for someone weighing 60kgs to run a set distance, than someone weighing 100kgs, to run the same distance.
If you want pure muscle development, then rather than a slow and steady programme of running, you can adopt a high intensity sprinting regime. You need to be stronger to sprint than run steadily, but even so, you don't often see bodybuilders running 9.something 100 meters.. Although the world-class sprinters are built pretty sturdily. At least more so than the marathoners.. Gotta be some kind of indication!
Halb said:
Chaz9950 said:
It all depends on what your end target is, as to get the best way to achieve your goal.
In the end, what do you want? Less BF? More muscle? More CV fitness?
I want all of that.In the end, what do you want? Less BF? More muscle? More CV fitness?
You probably won't like this, but it's best to do it using a cyclical method.
So, hit the gym for a few months, and put on some strong muscle. Eat right, and rest lots.
Then, after putting on some decent size, re-discover the CV aspect of training. Train hard, but limit the amount of longer runs / cycles / swims you do - short and sharp. Each training session should be HARD - that way, you'll lose weight, but keep as much muscle as possible. Every now and again, go for a low intensity, steady run or cycle for a good time / distance.
On your CV cycles, if you cut out as many carbs as possible, just eating a diet (more or less) of lean meats and vegetables, you'll drop the weight like you won't believe. The more carbs you cut out, the faster and more dramatic the results. Unfortunately, the same goes for fats and refined sugars too. It's not wise to try it on your bulking cycles though, as you'll find it hard to put the weight on.
I'd say for every month of CV, do two months in the gym bending metal.
You are the best judge though, and if you want to do a 'split' routine, meaning in the same week you do both weights and CV, go for it. But, IME, the best results for what you ask for come in cycles.
You can burn more calories in your weights sessions by tweaking training a bit. Add in super-sets (two exercises in parallel) giant-sets (three exercises in parallel), Drop sets (go to failure, drop weight, then go to failure again) Triple drop sets (same as before, but drop the weight twice or 3 times).
Only try to take 1 - 2 minutes rest between sets and 2 - 3 between exercises.
Legs can take a lot of punishment, so you can be doing sets of 30 - 50 reps in leg days. You can also do more than 3x sets. Recently I've been doing as many as 50 reps for 5 sets.
If you're looking to keep the fat off, long low intensity cardio is likely to be a good bet. Walking for an hour a day will keep things ticking over without robbing your body of the energy it needs to grow.
You obviously want to be taking in lots of calories to grow, but you might be able to claw a few back by cleaning up your diet. Sticking to lean sources of protein like fish, chicken breast and lean steak, while limiting carbs to wholesome sources like brown rice and sweet potato.
If you enjoy running then you should keep it up in my opinion. So you might grow 85% as much as you would have if you didn't, but for me, I need to keep active and doing cardio for my sanity. So I would never give up running. Although if you follow my advice on leg training - you won't be running for 3 days afterwards
Only try to take 1 - 2 minutes rest between sets and 2 - 3 between exercises.
Legs can take a lot of punishment, so you can be doing sets of 30 - 50 reps in leg days. You can also do more than 3x sets. Recently I've been doing as many as 50 reps for 5 sets.
If you're looking to keep the fat off, long low intensity cardio is likely to be a good bet. Walking for an hour a day will keep things ticking over without robbing your body of the energy it needs to grow.
You obviously want to be taking in lots of calories to grow, but you might be able to claw a few back by cleaning up your diet. Sticking to lean sources of protein like fish, chicken breast and lean steak, while limiting carbs to wholesome sources like brown rice and sweet potato.
If you enjoy running then you should keep it up in my opinion. So you might grow 85% as much as you would have if you didn't, but for me, I need to keep active and doing cardio for my sanity. So I would never give up running. Although if you follow my advice on leg training - you won't be running for 3 days afterwards
Edited by GBDG on Friday 18th May 11:44
A decent weight training program based on compound movements with a couple of isolation exercises coupled with some intensive cardio on days off i.e. not plodding along for an hour jogging but tabata intervals, KB complex's Hill Sprints etc work for me.
Or try something like the "300" workout 3 times a week? involves weights and gets the heart going, plus only takes around 30 mins
Or try something like the "300" workout 3 times a week? involves weights and gets the heart going, plus only takes around 30 mins
Chaz9950 said:
It all depends on what your end target is, as to get the best way to achieve your goal.
In the end, what do you want? Less BF? More muscle? More CV fitness?
The original purpose was to settle an argument over which exercise model was best for someone who wanted to lose fat (not me, just in general terms).In the end, what do you want? Less BF? More muscle? More CV fitness?
My experience has been that doing 80% high-intensity cardio + 20% full-body resistance training is better than, say a 3/4-day split bodybuilding routine. Lots of overweight people are told to stop jogging and start weight training because it burns more calories. My experiment was intended to see what would happen to me if i gave up cardio and followed a full-on bodybuilding routine whilst maintaining the same calorific intake
Obviously i gained weight, which means that i've burnt fewer calories than i would have doing my normal routine (rowing, eliptical, running, resistance circuits, etc). Based on my caliper tests i gained some fat, and i thought i'd gained a fair bit of muscle too (though opinion above is that 3lbs in 4 weeks is not possible).... So in my own mind i've settled the argument - if you can get good CV fitness and push yourself hard enough, you'll burn more fat doing cardio.
Having said that, I haven't gone long enough to see if the increased BMR has any effect, and also i'm really enjoying doing deadlifts and all that stuff .... so i'm going to carry on. However - i still want to maintain my CV fitness (which is very good) and not get fat.... so i suppose that's my goal now. Cake + eat it.
pilchardthecat said:
The original purpose was to settle an argument over which exercise model was best for someone who wanted to lose fat (not me, just in general terms).
My experience has been that doing 80% high-intensity cardio + 20% full-body resistance training is better than, say a 3/4-day split bodybuilding routine. Lots of overweight people are told to stop jogging and start weight training because it burns more calories. My experiment was intended to see what would happen to me if i gave up cardio and followed a full-on bodybuilding routine whilst maintaining the same calorific intake
Obviously i gained weight, which means that i've burnt fewer calories than i would have doing my normal routine (rowing, eliptical, running, resistance circuits, etc). Based on my caliper tests i gained some fat, and i thought i'd gained a fair bit of muscle too (though opinion above is that 3lbs in 4 weeks is not possible).... So in my own mind i've settled the argument - if you can get good CV fitness and push yourself hard enough, you'll burn more fat doing cardio.
Having said that, I haven't gone long enough to see if the increased BMR has any effect, and also i'm really enjoying doing deadlifts and all that stuff .... so i'm going to carry on. However - i still want to maintain my CV fitness (which is very good) and not get fat.... so i suppose that's my goal now. Cake + eat it.
Ahh, I finally understand your question now, LOL! My experience has been that doing 80% high-intensity cardio + 20% full-body resistance training is better than, say a 3/4-day split bodybuilding routine. Lots of overweight people are told to stop jogging and start weight training because it burns more calories. My experiment was intended to see what would happen to me if i gave up cardio and followed a full-on bodybuilding routine whilst maintaining the same calorific intake
Obviously i gained weight, which means that i've burnt fewer calories than i would have doing my normal routine (rowing, eliptical, running, resistance circuits, etc). Based on my caliper tests i gained some fat, and i thought i'd gained a fair bit of muscle too (though opinion above is that 3lbs in 4 weeks is not possible).... So in my own mind i've settled the argument - if you can get good CV fitness and push yourself hard enough, you'll burn more fat doing cardio.
Having said that, I haven't gone long enough to see if the increased BMR has any effect, and also i'm really enjoying doing deadlifts and all that stuff .... so i'm going to carry on. However - i still want to maintain my CV fitness (which is very good) and not get fat.... so i suppose that's my goal now. Cake + eat it.
If I wanted to keep a bit more muscle, and reduce fat while being limited to a CV-heavy routine, every time I'd visit the gym for resistance training, I'd only bother doing - deadlifts, squats, a few combinations of Olympic style power lifts, heaves (over grasp and under grasp), and dips. No curls, no really specific weights movements. Just big, whole-body type exercises.
The more muscle you include in a lift, the more testosterone you'll release, and the more you will grow - even if you only do the type of exercises I've listed. It's worked for a load of people, no reason it shouldn't work for you too, but it's down to you. Don't like, or if it doesn't work, switch to something different!
Edit - mmmmmmm, cake....
Edited by Chaz9950 on Friday 18th May 14:51
I didn't really mean muscle. What I have is fine, but strength/strength endurance.
My current training is based around squat variation/press/pull followed by a HIIT circuit. With odds and sods thrown in. I am always chopping and changing it though.
I did try and do a 5x5 program plus running two years ago, it was very very tough.
My current training is based around squat variation/press/pull followed by a HIIT circuit. With odds and sods thrown in. I am always chopping and changing it though.
I did try and do a 5x5 program plus running two years ago, it was very very tough.
MrWhale said:
A decent weight training program based on compound movements with a couple of isolation exercises coupled with some intensive cardio on days off i.e. not plodding along for an hour jogging but tabata intervals, KB complex's Hill Sprints etc work for me.
Or try something like the "300" workout 3 times a week? involves weights and gets the heart going, plus only takes around 30 mins
Yeah, 30 mins for some, took me over 40 last time I did it!Or try something like the "300" workout 3 times a week? involves weights and gets the heart going, plus only takes around 30 mins
The "experiment" isn't really proving anything.
You should be limiting your weights routine to around 1 hour, more than that can be catabolic. You also need to spend a lot of time resting.
Cardio can be done for hours on end, day after day. There is no way to burn as many calories doing weights as there is doing cardio. So you need to adjust your diet accordingly.
It's easy enough to see what the differences are in body composition based upon the main types of activity people do, you just need to go to any gym in the country and look at he guys in the weights area and their physiques, and compare it to the people who spend hours on the cross trainer/running machines etc.
You can also see this in athletes, just look at the difference between a sprinter and a marathon runner?
You should be limiting your weights routine to around 1 hour, more than that can be catabolic. You also need to spend a lot of time resting.
Cardio can be done for hours on end, day after day. There is no way to burn as many calories doing weights as there is doing cardio. So you need to adjust your diet accordingly.
It's easy enough to see what the differences are in body composition based upon the main types of activity people do, you just need to go to any gym in the country and look at he guys in the weights area and their physiques, and compare it to the people who spend hours on the cross trainer/running machines etc.
You can also see this in athletes, just look at the difference between a sprinter and a marathon runner?
Best approach for cardio IMO OP is just doing a small amount of moderate intensity steady state after weights but before post workout nutrition. My plan is as follows (training 4-5x week with no cardio on rest days):
-First "meal" of day pre-training (say 3pm): whey + fish oils
-Lift
-200cals on exercise bike at approx HR 140-170bpm (takes around 15mins sometimes less)
-Post workout whey + sugary cereal
Evening meal of whatever I want so long as I hit a reasonable amount of protein and stay under my calorie allowance.
I've been cutting like this (2800cals on training days/2100 on off days) but would do EXACTLY the same when bulking except with more calories in the evening. The cardio prior to intake of carbs will keep a lid on fat gain.
There is a bunch of broscience out there about cardio hindering muscle gain etc but it is GARBAGE unless perhaps you are a 250lbs+ IFBB pro. When cutting you have to be slightly careful ie if fasted keep it to a moderate intensity and not for too long (say 1hr).
-First "meal" of day pre-training (say 3pm): whey + fish oils
-Lift
-200cals on exercise bike at approx HR 140-170bpm (takes around 15mins sometimes less)
-Post workout whey + sugary cereal
Evening meal of whatever I want so long as I hit a reasonable amount of protein and stay under my calorie allowance.
I've been cutting like this (2800cals on training days/2100 on off days) but would do EXACTLY the same when bulking except with more calories in the evening. The cardio prior to intake of carbs will keep a lid on fat gain.
There is a bunch of broscience out there about cardio hindering muscle gain etc but it is GARBAGE unless perhaps you are a 250lbs+ IFBB pro. When cutting you have to be slightly careful ie if fasted keep it to a moderate intensity and not for too long (say 1hr).
Edited by HonestIago on Friday 18th May 15:42
GBDG said:
The "experiment" isn't really proving anything.
...There is no way to burn as many calories doing weights as there is doing cardio. ...
I mostly agree, other than to say it's proving what i thought to be profoundly obvious, and which you also seem to think of as a simple fact......but many people don't accept the statement above - and the internet is full of advice telling overweight/undertrained/unfit people to forget about cardio and do a 3x1hour/week weightlifiting regime, because it "burns more calories"...There is no way to burn as many calories doing weights as there is doing cardio. ...
HonestIago said:
....
There is a bunch of broscience out there about cardio hindering muscle gain etc but it is GARBAGE unless perhaps you are a 250lbs+ IFBB pro. When cutting you have to be slightly careful ie if fasted keep it to a moderate intensity and not for too long (say 1hr).
Interesting - this where my thoughts are heading. I'm thinking a 1 hour chest session on the weights followed by a 45 minute bike ride...... There is a bunch of broscience out there about cardio hindering muscle gain etc but it is GARBAGE unless perhaps you are a 250lbs+ IFBB pro. When cutting you have to be slightly careful ie if fasted keep it to a moderate intensity and not for too long (say 1hr).
HonestIago said:
No offence but any reference to how sprinters "look" (assuming you mean olympic level) is null and void. At the top level they are all off their pecs on AAS, without exception.
Hmm... I don't know if that is true, and neither do you! Even if it were true, I've looked at the training sprinters do, and you're talking about taking some of the most genetically gifted athletes on earth, with an extremely high composition of twitch muscle fibre, putting them on strict perfect nutrition from their early teens, training them 6 days per week, several times per day.They also do loads of weight training and HIIT. And you don't think that they could achieve a physique like that naturally?
Usain Bolt has been running insanely fast times since he was 14/15. Most sprinters would have been selected to start training aged 12 - 15, and would only have been chosen based upon times of sub 11.5 seconds at those ages. Hell, the school record at my high school was around 11 seconds.
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