Strength & Conditioning for Boxing and MMA
Discussion
There's quite a few posters frequenting the forum who are interested in and even participate in martial arts, and for a few, boxing, so I was wondering - given this is an area I'm very interested in - what are your views on strength and conditioning?
Might be an interesting debate and opportunity to compare experiences, routines and what coaches have said/implemented.
For example, stuff like:
what exercises?
weights or not? (if so, amount of weight relative to 1rm max)
number and speed of reps/exercise
volume
periodisation/routines
and so on...
Plus positives and negatives from own experience.
Might be an interesting debate and opportunity to compare experiences, routines and what coaches have said/implemented.
For example, stuff like:
what exercises?
weights or not? (if so, amount of weight relative to 1rm max)
number and speed of reps/exercise
volume
periodisation/routines
and so on...
Plus positives and negatives from own experience.
I'm helping a couple of boxers and a MMA fighter train at my friends barn. Plenty of resistance to new ideas there, most boxing trainers think a pair of dumbells count as resistance training. My method involves one set of trap bar deadlifts a week , 1x 12 reps in fact. That's it. Nothing else. No curls, no sit ups, nothing. Every other scrap of training goes to gettin fitness levels as high as possible, which tbh isn't my area.
The idea with the trap lifts is to increase the weight each week, or if that's too much, every two weeks. To achieve this I imported some very tiny fractional plates from the USA that fit on an Olympic sized bar, these are 0.125, 0.25, & 0.5 kg plates. You won't find these down your local gym. The idea is to increase each session by 0.25 kg, so small you don't notice it, but it's there alright. Same reps but more weight, it is impossible nit to gain this way. And there you go, very safe, proven to work compound exercise, a year of that and you will be amazed at the results. oh and don't use belts or straps either.
The idea with the trap lifts is to increase the weight each week, or if that's too much, every two weeks. To achieve this I imported some very tiny fractional plates from the USA that fit on an Olympic sized bar, these are 0.125, 0.25, & 0.5 kg plates. You won't find these down your local gym. The idea is to increase each session by 0.25 kg, so small you don't notice it, but it's there alright. Same reps but more weight, it is impossible nit to gain this way. And there you go, very safe, proven to work compound exercise, a year of that and you will be amazed at the results. oh and don't use belts or straps either.
markcoznottz said:
I'm helping a couple of boxers and a MMA fighter train at my friends barn. Plenty of resistance to new ideas there, most boxing trainers think a pair of dumbells count as resistance training. My method involves one set of trap bar deadlifts a week , 1x 12 reps in fact. That's it. Nothing else. No curls, no sit ups, nothing. Every other scrap of training goes to gettin fitness levels as high as possible, which tbh isn't my area.
The idea with the trap lifts is to increase the weight each week, or if that's too much, every two weeks. To achieve this I imported some very tiny fractional plates from the USA that fit on an Olympic sized bar, these are 0.125, 0.25, & 0.5 kg plates. You won't find these down your local gym. The idea is to increase each session by 0.25 kg, so small you don't notice it, but it's there alright. Same reps but more weight, it is impossible nit to gain this way. And there you go, very safe, proven to work compound exercise, a year of that and you will be amazed at the results. oh and don't use belts or straps either.
Until around a year ago I'd re-started trap bar deadlifts - sometimes high reps but quite often as low as 2s and 3s. Sold the bar when broke and trying to find more space so have seen a big decline in size of forearms, traps and - possibly - upper back but am really not sure what impact it's had on my boxing.The idea with the trap lifts is to increase the weight each week, or if that's too much, every two weeks. To achieve this I imported some very tiny fractional plates from the USA that fit on an Olympic sized bar, these are 0.125, 0.25, & 0.5 kg plates. You won't find these down your local gym. The idea is to increase each session by 0.25 kg, so small you don't notice it, but it's there alright. Same reps but more weight, it is impossible nit to gain this way. And there you go, very safe, proven to work compound exercise, a year of that and you will be amazed at the results. oh and don't use belts or straps either.
What impact are you expecting/after from this?
A poster called mma4life used to post his workouts in the what training thread but I am not sure if he competed or not, his workouts looked good with supersets and circuits.
Most of the vids on YouTube to do with mma tend to be circuits aimed at stamina, body weight stuff etc. I like the vids by GSP because you get the comments saying ' is that all he lifts' .Not quite understanding the aim of conditioning rather than building/max load
I'm coming from a Mugendo, Kickboxing, Muay Thai background of 5 years or so... long time ago... but I imagine the training is not too disimilar to MMA, particularly Muay Thai for intensity.
But Muay Thai would mostly be around endurance training if there was any gym work. A session was often running, 100 situps, running, 100 press-ups, running, extreme stretching, running... etc. Legs, Core, Shoulders, Triceps where most of your power and endurance comes from. Not a lot of point trying to go rounds if you can't last more than 2, which is a bit Bruce Lee mantra.
I guess that would cover most of your questions, but not for MMA.
Depends on your needs and what your power:speed:fitness:weight ratios are really.
But Muay Thai would mostly be around endurance training if there was any gym work. A session was often running, 100 situps, running, 100 press-ups, running, extreme stretching, running... etc. Legs, Core, Shoulders, Triceps where most of your power and endurance comes from. Not a lot of point trying to go rounds if you can't last more than 2, which is a bit Bruce Lee mantra.
I guess that would cover most of your questions, but not for MMA.
Depends on your needs and what your power:speed:fitness:weight ratios are really.
Lost_BMW said:
Until around a year ago I'd re-started trap bar deadlifts - sometimes high reps but quite often as low as 2s and 3s. Sold the bar when broke and trying to find more space so have seen a big decline in size of forearms, traps and - possibly - upper back but am really not sure what impact it's had on my boxing.
What impact are you expecting/after from this?
Who knows, just a stronger fighter. I can't think of a safer way of weight training than trap bar lifts, for all over strength gains. With regard to your training you are already well ahead of most boxers by using trap lifts, by using an abbreviated workout you aren't taxing your cardiovascular reserves. Wether it makes someone 'better' at a sport is a moot point, but better to try than not if it's safe. What impact are you expecting/after from this?
One stop shop fits all?
I have micro loading plates, 0.25kg, 0.5kg, 1kg and 2kg. Extremely useful for upping weight (especially on the small muscles like delts) and HIIT circuits.
I met a young lad in the gym last week, he was interested in the stuff I was doing. He is training to be a boxer. Didn't know anything about powercleans or the like so I gave him my thoughts. His coach had just passed away so he was a bit stuck.
I have micro loading plates, 0.25kg, 0.5kg, 1kg and 2kg. Extremely useful for upping weight (especially on the small muscles like delts) and HIIT circuits.
I met a young lad in the gym last week, he was interested in the stuff I was doing. He is training to be a boxer. Didn't know anything about powercleans or the like so I gave him my thoughts. His coach had just passed away so he was a bit stuck.
Halb said:
One stop shop fits all?
I have micro loading plates, 0.25kg, 0.5kg, 1kg and 2kg. Extremely useful for upping weight (especially on the small muscles like delts) and HIIT circuits.
I met a young lad in the gym last week, he was interested in the stuff I was doing. He is training to be a boxer. Didn't know anything about powercleans or the like so I gave him my thoughts. His coach had just passed away so he was a bit stuck.
Noone has ever asked me about hit training, abbreviated routines or fractional plates in 10 yrs of training . Where did you buy your mini plates from and where did you find out about them?. I have micro loading plates, 0.25kg, 0.5kg, 1kg and 2kg. Extremely useful for upping weight (especially on the small muscles like delts) and HIIT circuits.
I met a young lad in the gym last week, he was interested in the stuff I was doing. He is training to be a boxer. Didn't know anything about powercleans or the like so I gave him my thoughts. His coach had just passed away so he was a bit stuck.
markcoznottz said:
Noone has ever asked me about hit training, abbreviated routines or fractional plates in 10 yrs of training . Where did you buy your mini plates from and where did you find out about them?.
I think I read about fractional loading in an essay by Bill Starr or Mark Ripptoe, or another well trusted strength coach.So I looked, and bought a nice set at Pullum Sports, though I have lots of shops bookmarked and I think there are a few out there that stock them, like The Strength Shop.
Wow, first time I have seen a 0.125kg plate.
https://www.strengthshop.co.uk/weight-plates/0-125...
I was reading some interesting stuff about Riptoe- often the main guy quoted for full-body workouts, yet terrified of over training. The eventual proposition was- who has Riptoe's 5x5 system trained, the answer- no one who is elite/special. I'm of the opinion that it's very much a beginner program- frequency and intensity can be upped almost exponentially from what he says.
Almost all of my gains have come on the back of high intensity (ie high % of 1RM) and relatively high volume (with varying permutations of the lifts- partials etc)
What is factual is that you'll almost NEVER find an elite strength/body builder with the same routine. Moral of the story- try EVERY thing until something fits you- something will fit YOU though. (Look to Tom Martins log on Sugden Barbell- now 93kg, drug free and eats children, also f
ks recognised programs in the face....)
The adage 'go heavy or go home' will answer most questions. Also, interesting reading is about somatypes- interesting read here- http://chaosandpain.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/im-hard... I's HIGHLY recommend this offensive blog. It is offensive, but is highly researched and generally awesome, in fact, it's given my training a well need boost, read through it all, and it's 100% worth it. The guy can be a cock, but quite endearing.
Out drinking on a school night, hence the babble.
I fully expect Matikake to dazzle me with science to the contrary
Totally off topic, but fk it. 10-4
Almost all of my gains have come on the back of high intensity (ie high % of 1RM) and relatively high volume (with varying permutations of the lifts- partials etc)
What is factual is that you'll almost NEVER find an elite strength/body builder with the same routine. Moral of the story- try EVERY thing until something fits you- something will fit YOU though. (Look to Tom Martins log on Sugden Barbell- now 93kg, drug free and eats children, also f
ks recognised programs in the face....) The adage 'go heavy or go home' will answer most questions. Also, interesting reading is about somatypes- interesting read here- http://chaosandpain.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/im-hard... I's HIGHLY recommend this offensive blog. It is offensive, but is highly researched and generally awesome, in fact, it's given my training a well need boost, read through it all, and it's 100% worth it. The guy can be a cock, but quite endearing.
Out drinking on a school night, hence the babble.
I fully expect Matikake to dazzle me with science to the contrary
Totally off topic, but f
k it. 10-4
The reason for the thread wasn't just specifically for me or related to what I want - 'doubt I'm a fair test or typical as I want it all! Less weight, more muscle, greater strength, more endurance, more speed, more flexibility, greater tolerance of pain etc. etc. And all "now"!
No, it was a general interest thing as I'm fascinated by this subject and the changing attitudes and practices in MMA and boxing. As several posters have said, boxing does seem to be behind the curve still with many coaches/fighters though there seems to be a creep from UFC and its partners in blood with more emphasis on strength work, power, speed and endurance phases and periodisation etc. I'm surprised so far with how little your reporting of this in other more mainstream martial arts.
Do keep the debate and suggestions coming!
No, it was a general interest thing as I'm fascinated by this subject and the changing attitudes and practices in MMA and boxing. As several posters have said, boxing does seem to be behind the curve still with many coaches/fighters though there seems to be a creep from UFC and its partners in blood with more emphasis on strength work, power, speed and endurance phases and periodisation etc. I'm surprised so far with how little your reporting of this in other more mainstream martial arts.
Do keep the debate and suggestions coming!
didelydoo said:
I was reading some interesting stuff about Riptoe- often the main guy quoted for full-body workouts, yet terrified of over training. The eventual proposition was- who has Riptoe's 5x5 system trained, the answer- no one who is elite/special. I'm of the opinion that it's very much a beginner program- frequency and intensity can be upped almost exponentially from what he says.
Almost all of my gains have come on the back of high intensity (ie high % of 1RM) and relatively high volume (with varying permutations of the lifts- partials etc)
What is factual is that you'll almost NEVER find an elite strength/body builder with the same routine. Moral of the story- try EVERY thing until something fits you- something will fit YOU though. (Look to Tom Martins log on Sugden Barbell- now 93kg, drug free and eats children, also fks recognised programs in the face....)
The adage 'go heavy or go home' will answer most questions. Also, interesting reading is about somatypes- interesting read here- http://chaosandpain.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/im-hard... I's HIGHLY recommend this offensive blog. It is offensive, but is highly researched and generally awesome, in fact, it's given my training a well need boost, read through it all, and it's 100% worth it. The guy can be a cock, but quite endearing.
Out drinking on a school night, hence the babble.
I fully expect Matikake to dazzle me with science to the contrary
Totally off topic, but fk it. 10-4
Your not kidding the guys a cock. His views on Stuart mcrobert & co are unnecessary as it is people like that who have pushed the boundarys of natural lifting. In fact it was Stuart mcrobert who influenced me to try hit training. Almost all of my gains have come on the back of high intensity (ie high % of 1RM) and relatively high volume (with varying permutations of the lifts- partials etc)
What is factual is that you'll almost NEVER find an elite strength/body builder with the same routine. Moral of the story- try EVERY thing until something fits you- something will fit YOU though. (Look to Tom Martins log on Sugden Barbell- now 93kg, drug free and eats children, also f
ks recognised programs in the face....) The adage 'go heavy or go home' will answer most questions. Also, interesting reading is about somatypes- interesting read here- http://chaosandpain.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/im-hard... I's HIGHLY recommend this offensive blog. It is offensive, but is highly researched and generally awesome, in fact, it's given my training a well need boost, read through it all, and it's 100% worth it. The guy can be a cock, but quite endearing.
Out drinking on a school night, hence the babble.
I fully expect Matikake to dazzle me with science to the contrary
Totally off topic, but f
k it. 10-4Halb said:
markcoznottz said:
Noone has ever asked me about hit training, abbreviated routines or fractional plates in 10 yrs of training . Where did you buy your mini plates from and where did you find out about them?.
I think I read about fractional loading in an essay by Bill Starr or Mark Ripptoe, or another well trusted strength coach.So I looked, and bought a nice set at Pullum Sports, though I have lots of shops bookmarked and I think there are a few out there that stock them, like The Strength Shop.
Wow, first time I have seen a 0.125kg plate.
https://www.strengthshop.co.uk/weight-plates/0-125...
didelydoo said:
I was reading some interesting stuff about Riptoe- often the main guy quoted for full-body workouts, yet terrified of over training. The eventual proposition was- who has Riptoe's 5x5 system trained, the answer- no one who is elite/special. I'm of the opinion that it's very much a beginner program- frequency and intensity can be upped almost exponentially from what he says.
It can be varied with light, heavy, medium days. I used to do it.http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manr...
Tried to read that blog the last time you posted it. Cannot stand that man's style, if he has anything good to say it's lost in babble.
didelydoo said:
I was reading some interesting stuff about Riptoe- often the main guy quoted for full-body workouts, yet terrified of over training. The eventual proposition was- who has Riptoe's 5x5 system trained, the answer- no one who is elite/special. I'm of the opinion that it's very much a beginner program- frequency and intensity can be upped almost exponentially from what he says.
Almost all of my gains have come on the back of high intensity (ie high % of 1RM) and relatively high volume (with varying permutations of the lifts- partials etc)
What is factual is that you'll almost NEVER find an elite strength/body builder with the same routine. Moral of the story- try EVERY thing until something fits you- something will fit YOU though. (Look to Tom Martins log on Sugden Barbell- now 93kg, drug free and eats children, also fks recognised programs in the face....)
The adage 'go heavy or go home' will answer most questions. Also, interesting reading is about somatypes- interesting read here- http://chaosandpain.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/im-hard... I's HIGHLY recommend this offensive blog. It is offensive, but is highly researched and generally awesome, in fact, it's given my training a well need boost, read through it all, and it's 100% worth it. The guy can be a cock, but quite endearing.
Out drinking on a school night, hence the babble.
I fully expect Matikake to dazzle me with science to the contrary
Totally off topic, but fk it. 10-4
Good post!Almost all of my gains have come on the back of high intensity (ie high % of 1RM) and relatively high volume (with varying permutations of the lifts- partials etc)
What is factual is that you'll almost NEVER find an elite strength/body builder with the same routine. Moral of the story- try EVERY thing until something fits you- something will fit YOU though. (Look to Tom Martins log on Sugden Barbell- now 93kg, drug free and eats children, also f
ks recognised programs in the face....) The adage 'go heavy or go home' will answer most questions. Also, interesting reading is about somatypes- interesting read here- http://chaosandpain.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/im-hard... I's HIGHLY recommend this offensive blog. It is offensive, but is highly researched and generally awesome, in fact, it's given my training a well need boost, read through it all, and it's 100% worth it. The guy can be a cock, but quite endearing.
Out drinking on a school night, hence the babble.
I fully expect Matikake to dazzle me with science to the contrary
Totally off topic, but f
k it. 10-4S'funny, even before you mentioned it, I knew you'd had a refreshment or two - your posts are always a bit more..... juicier when you've been on the, err, juice!
markcoznottz said:
I didnt know you could buy them off the shelf. I've had mine since 2001, I had to buy them from America using a credit card, they might have been one of the first sets in the uk.
I've had a few PTs come up and ask me about them in the gym. They are bright colours, they get a few looks sometimes.What a totally off topic post last night...not in any way related to S&C for MMA. Still, it seems relatively sensible.
On topic- when I boxed and later did MT, I found that and heavy strength related stuff was detrimental to my other training. Lighter circuits and lots of bag works seemed to fill 90% of the time that was not spent sparring. Infact, my increase in strength related stuff was the reason that I stopped MT as I felt that I could only put 100% effort into one or the other.
On topic- when I boxed and later did MT, I found that and heavy strength related stuff was detrimental to my other training. Lighter circuits and lots of bag works seemed to fill 90% of the time that was not spent sparring. Infact, my increase in strength related stuff was the reason that I stopped MT as I felt that I could only put 100% effort into one or the other.
Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff