PH Transformation Winter Thread 2012 - Chat

[IroningMan]

Sounds like a case for circuit training - find the right class and it can get competitive; plus the scenery is usually interesting.

CV work doesn't need to make you look like Mo Farah - my 'target' physique is the kind of shape that you see on the startline for a 400m, coupled with the ability to walk 40km every day for a week, run a marathon or cycle 100 miles - all at the drop of a hat.

You do burn some hours, though: I'm currently not running or swimming, but circuits, core work, cycling and turbo training add up to 7 hours a week.

[theshrew]

I have to agree ive been doing a circuit class recently. TBH im not sure if it will build or loose muscle.

I thought it would be fairly easy because

1. You see a few fat chicks doing that sort of thing.
2. The stuff you do looks pretty easy

However a lad at the gym talked me into doing it and i can say i couldnt of been further away from the truth. Its VERY hard work and really good fun.
I can run,bike or swim quite a decent distance but jeez doing something like this for 30sec / 1min really takes it out of you. It makes a great alternative to pounding the treadmill. Its more of a HIIT type of training.

Edited by theshrew on Wednesday 27th February 11:58

[IroningMan]

theshrew said:

I have to agree ive been doing a circuit class recently. TBH im not sure if it will build or loose muscle.

I thought it would be fairly easy because

1. You see a few fat chicks doing that sort of thing.
2. The stuff you do looks pretty easy

However a lad at the gym talked me into doing it and i can say i couldnt of been further away from the truth. Its VERY hard work and really good fun.
I can run,bike or swim quite a decent distance but jeez doing something like this for 30sec / 1min really takes it out of you. It makes a great alternative to pounding the treadmill. Its more of a HIIT type of training.

Edited by theshrew on Wednesday 27th February 11:58

A minute of tuck jumps generally wakes me up a bit...

[Hoofy]

I watched a Body Combat class last year. My first thought was, "Hm lots of young fairly fit women!" My second thought was, "Crikey, they need to invest in sports bras!" My third thought was, "I better not watch for much longer or they'll call the police!"

If I do CV, I have a whole range of things that will keep me occupied, anyway. Les Mills can take my money from my cold, dead hands.

[IroningMan]

Hoofy said:

I watched a Body Combat class last year. My first thought was, "Hm lots of young fairly fit women!" My second thought was, "Crikey, they need to invest in sports bras!" My third thought was, "I better not watch for much longer or they'll call the police!"

If I do CV, I have a whole range of things that will keep me occupied, anyway. Les Mills can take my money from my cold, dead hands.

My £30 a month has gym, pool and all the classes I can eat included, so it's free, but a good circuits class is nevertheless a very effective route to CV fitness. It's interval training with someone else keeping an eye on the stopwatch - and I don't imagine you'd see muscle wastage as a result of doing:

V-sits
Tuck jumps
Flys
Burpees
Plank
Bench squats
Lat Raises
Squat runs
Dorsal raises
Calf raises
Diamond press-ups
Shuttle runs
etc each flat out for 40 seconds with a 20 second break in between. The scenery is a motivational bonus.

[anonymous-user]

One question, I do HIIT on the treadmill before I start my workout. I'm just checking if I'm doing it properly. I'm seeing results with the fat burn but just checking if I'm doing it to the full potential. So I do a ratio of 2:1 of work:rest. I go level 10 for 1 minute and go walking pace for 30 seconds. I go on like this for 15 minutes. Is this correct?

[Hoofy]

Apologies in advance if my post comes across as aggressive! I have edited it twice as I just banged out a reply quickly!

IroningMan said:

My £30 a month has gym, pool and all the classes I can eat included, so it's free, but a good circuits class is nevertheless a very effective route to CV fitness. It's interval training with someone else keeping an eye on the stopwatch - and I don't imagine you'd see muscle wastage as a result of doing:

V-sits
Tuck jumps
Flys
Burpees
Plank
Bench squats
Lat Raises
Squat runs
Dorsal raises
Calf raises
Diamond press-ups
Shuttle runs
etc each flat out for 40 seconds with a 20 second break in between. The scenery is a motivational bonus.

Thanks for the list. Is interesting; I do certain stuff but don't need to pay £30 a month. (Free gym. )

I could do it all on my own as I do have a suitable timer but I'd rather do my own fat-burning routines which use kettlebells and barbells. Also some of those I wouldn't bother eg Planks. Planks is what fat people do in the vain hope of burning ab fat - the spot burning belief keeps fitness instructors in jobs. I tried planks for a month (renegade rows with 20kg dbs in fact) and found my ability to do full leg raises had gone backwards.

As for V-sits, you don't mean these do you?


Thought not.

As to muscle wastage, why not? It's light weights so it is CV. If CV burns muscle then it would burn muscle. The question is... does CV burn muscle? And does CV with light weights burn muscle? I don't know. I recall reading somewhere that skinny guys should avoid CV. Can't remember the source. Could be bro-science.

Edited by Hoofy on Wednesday 27th February 18:16

[AnonSpoilsport]

"As to muscle wastage, why not? It's light weights so it is CV. If CV burns muscle then it would burn muscle. The question is... does CV burn muscle? And does CV with light weights burn muscle? I don't know. I recall reading somewhere that skinny guys should avoid CV. Can't remember the source. Could be bro-science."

I suppose you could describe a lot of my training as 'cv with light weights' - the Bulgarian Bag circuits, cable resistance work, med balls, use of hex plates for high rep laterals etc. and push ups - and it's not made me any smaller. I've lost weight/overall size but the muscles are as big as they were when lifting more 'normally' a couple of years back, in some areas possibly bigger.

Obviously I wouldn't be as strong on some things as I just haven't done them for ages but it wouldn't take long to get it back if I refocussed. I am fitter though.

[Hoofy]

Sounds good. Well, maybe I'll resume KB and BB circuits in spring.

[LordGrover]

Compared to normals, you're big.

[IroningMan]

Hoofy said:

CV is bad, mmmkay..?

None taken You may have a point - I guess it's down to what you're trying to achieve - but to my mind uber-generalisations like 'skinny guys shouldn't do CV' smack of bro science: you need to put on fat in order to build muscle mass: CV burns fat ergo CV must be bad, or something like that.

Conversely I don't 'lift' and never have done, because I'm not especially attracted to the idea of muscle bulk for it's own sake, or, indeed, the dietary gymnastics needed to build and sustain muscle that's not required for my 'normal' routine: where the circuits and core work that I do aren't enough to keep my upper body in step with what cycling and running are doing for my legs then I'll make up the difference with bodyweight exercises - I have plenty of that to work with.

I'm particularly fond of circuit training and have always tried to ensure that it's the last bit of my programme to be given up when work or other commitments get in the way. Much is made in the threads on here of the benefits of whole body exercises like deadlifts and squats over those of over-specific exercises like concentration curls or leg presses - and I see the same kind of differentiation between circuits and running and for broadly the same reasons. I've been using the same gym for ten years, and going to the same circuits class for all that time - although we change the routine regularly: aside from the training value there is a competitive element to it, and I get a kick out of being the fittest/fastest/strongest, even if the others don't always know that we're racing.

Nice pic - that's not what I meant by v-sits, though (and the list was just the first dozen or so things I could think of); I meant crunches with leg extension. 70 or so in a minute - it is a CV workout, after all...and planks? I was introduced to them as a means by which I could strengthen my core to the benefit of my swim stroke and the length of time I could comfortably stay down on the aerobars on my bike. If I squint then I can see some definition in my abs, but I don't think it's down to the planks.

[AnonSpoilsport]

Ordinary_Chap said:

I personally think it depends on your goals. If you want to gain a solid mass base quickly you need to spend time packing on the muscle and growing and then at a later point consider going low fat.

If you don't mind far slower growth at the cost of staying in great shape then do that.

Personally once I got the bug, I wanted rapid growth and gained a fair chunk of muscle in a short period and now can stay slim if I like since I've got an ok level of muscle. I say ok in that I'm not big but look like I've got some muscle.

Bear in mind that this is an approach used on and off over the last 3 or 4 years after well over 20 years of more conventional lifting and during a period of reducing size/weight knowing that I'd have to sacrifice muscle mass, though in the event less than I'd have expected. Ditto, strength - I thought I'd be way down on things like bench press after nearly a decade of not doing chest work but by doing pushups it stayed up quite well (c. 2/3 of past levels) during an experimental attempt.

[Hoofy]

Ordinary_Chap said:

LordGrover said:

Compared to normals, you're big.

Why thank you kind sir!

And he wasn't even talking about your LBM.

[LordGrover]

I thought the speshal photos were a secret?

[Hoofy]

IroningMan said:

Hoofy said:

CV is bad, mmmkay..?

Wasn't quite what I said.

IroningMan said:

None taken You may have a point - I guess it's down to what you're trying to achieve - but to my mind uber-generalisations like 'skinny guys shouldn't do CV' smack of bro science: you need to put on fat in order to build muscle mass: CV burns fat ergo CV must be bad, or something like that.

Conversely I don't 'lift' and never have done, because I'm not especially attracted to the idea of muscle bulk for it's own sake, or, indeed, the dietary gymnastics needed to build and sustain muscle that's not required for my 'normal' routine: where the circuits and core work that I do aren't enough to keep my upper body in step with what cycling and running are doing for my legs then I'll make up the difference with bodyweight exercises - I have plenty of that to work with.

I'm particularly fond of circuit training and have always tried to ensure that it's the last bit of my programme to be given up when work or other commitments get in the way. Much is made in the threads on here of the benefits of whole body exercises like deadlifts and squats over those of over-specific exercises like concentration curls or leg presses - and I see the same kind of differentiation between circuits and running and for broadly the same reasons. I've been using the same gym for ten years, and going to the same circuits class for all that time - although we change the routine regularly: aside from the training value there is a competitive element to it, and I get a kick out of being the fittest/fastest/strongest, even if the others don't always know that we're racing.

Nice pic - that's not what I meant by v-sits, though (and the list was just the first dozen or so things I could think of); I meant crunches with leg extension. 70 or so in a minute - it is a CV workout, after all...and planks? I was introduced to them as a means by which I could strengthen my core to the benefit of my swim stroke and the length of time I could comfortably stay down on the aerobars on my bike. If I squint then I can see some definition in my abs, but I don't think it's down to the planks.

Ah, well, I do a combo of bodyweight (cali/gymnastics) and weight lifting. My main goal is to see how far I can go with what I've got via food and training and this weak body.

[AnonSpoilsport]

Ordinary_Chap said:

AnonSpoilsport said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

I personally think it depends on your goals. If you want to gain a solid mass base quickly you need to spend time packing on the muscle and growing and then at a later point consider going low fat.

If you don't mind far slower growth at the cost of staying in great shape then do that.

Personally once I got the bug, I wanted rapid growth and gained a fair chunk of muscle in a short period and now can stay slim if I like since I've got an ok level of muscle. I say ok in that I'm not big but look like I've got some muscle.

Bear in mind that this is an approach used on and off over the last 3 or 4 years after well over 20 years of more conventional lifting and during a period of reducing size/weight knowing that I'd have to sacrifice muscle mass, though in the event less than I'd have expected. Ditto, strength - I thought I'd be way down on things like bench press after nearly a decade of not doing chest work but by doing pushups it stayed up quite well (c. 2/3 of past levels) during an experimental attempt.

Hi Lost,

Always good to have you on here.

After 20 years of continuous lifting buddy, your body is going to be massively more capable than a newbie lifter and the equation is massively changed.

I'm just questioning what Hoofy really wants, there are no right or wrong answers, its just personal preference.

I think Hoofy is questioning what he wants!

If I was as slim as him and if I did want to get bigger it's true that I wouldn't be doing much cv, very few weight circuits or lighter weight work (unless as part of very deliberate, controlled rep bodybuilder style sessions with short rest intervals etc.), little or no kettlebell work (unless using them like weights with a similar % of 1rm and rep scheme) etc. but would do mostly compound lifts with heavy weights (for whatever my current capacity was) and lowish to medium reps for most lifts in a session/weekly cycle.

I wouldn't do too many exercises or sets either - fewer than I do now - but would concentrate on regularly adding reps or weights every few sessions and working hard on those few sets post warm up. That approach got me big and reasonably strong in a fairly short time scale, doubling or better my starting points in a couple of years or so. "Newbie" response and gains gave me a quick start despite doing far too much too often but then, predictably, I stalled. Cutting back and doing the above gave another quick surge, esp. in my 3rd and 4th years of training.

[Hoofy]

AnonSpoilsport said:

I think Hoofy is questioning what he wants!

If I was as slim as him and if I did want to get bigger it's true that I wouldn't be doing much cv, very few weight circuits or lighter weight work (unless as part of very deliberate, controlled rep bodybuilder style sessions with short rest intervals etc.), little or no kettlebell work (unless using them like weights with a similar % of 1rm and rep scheme) etc. but would do mostly compound lifts with heavy weights (for whatever my current capacity was) and lowish to medium reps for most lifts in a session/weekly cycle.

I wouldn't do too many exercises or sets either - fewer than I do now - but would concentrate on regularly adding reps or weights every few sessions and working hard on those few sets post warm up. That approach got me big and reasonably strong in a fairly short time scale, doubling or better my starting points in a couple of years or so. "Newbie" response and gains gave me a quick start despite doing far too much too often but then, predictably, I stalled. Cutting back and doing the above gave another quick surge, esp. in my 3rd and 4th years of training.

Christ - I daren't move now. Can someone pop to the kitchen and get me a cup of tea?

[AnonSpoilsport]

Hoofy said:

AnonSpoilsport said:

I think Hoofy is questioning what he wants!

If I was as slim as him and if I did want to get bigger it's true that I wouldn't be doing much cv, very few weight circuits or lighter weight work (unless as part of very deliberate, controlled rep bodybuilder style sessions with short rest intervals etc.), little or no kettlebell work (unless using them like weights with a similar % of 1rm and rep scheme) etc. but would do mostly compound lifts with heavy weights (for whatever my current capacity was) and lowish to medium reps for most lifts in a session/weekly cycle.

I wouldn't do too many exercises or sets either - fewer than I do now - but would concentrate on regularly adding reps or weights every few sessions and working hard on those few sets post warm up. That approach got me big and reasonably strong in a fairly short time scale, doubling or better my starting points in a couple of years or so. "Newbie" response and gains gave me a quick start despite doing far too much too often but then, predictably, I stalled. Cutting back and doing the above gave another quick surge, esp. in my 3rd and 4th years of training.

Christ - I daren't move now. Can someone pop to the kitchen and get me a cup of tea?

I'll fetch you a protein shake instead!

[Hoofy]

Hm. I'll have another think.

[IroningMan]

Hoofy said:

Hm. I'll have another think.

Are you sure?