Only non bro's need apply....
Discussion
well i have been on my diet for 4 months.
i was losing 3lb's a week, this equates to 1500 calories down.
however after having a break i am finding it hard to get back into it
my routine is salard for lunch, and fruit in the evening.
roughly 70 lbs lost and 70 to go, then i am just in the overweight catogry.
i was losing 3lb's a week, this equates to 1500 calories down.
however after having a break i am finding it hard to get back into it
my routine is salard for lunch, and fruit in the evening.
roughly 70 lbs lost and 70 to go, then i am just in the overweight catogry.
I'm glad someone spotted the obvious carrot of me saying 'it worked for me' in reference to my original post. The irony is that I was more than aware that this would be jumped on but thought a personal anecdote would give a little insight to my current state of affairs rather than anything else. My choices in my diet and / or exercise(s) was not based on bro-science and hopefully a way of opening conversation with informed debate rather than a mass argument.
To be clear, my post is not a 'IT WORKED FOR ME' thread and my comments regarding nutrition / exercise are not anecdotal.
Mattikake - thanks for your detailed reply. I assume you work in the field being as you have 'clients'. I do not and haven't tried to say I am but I'm guessing that will just make some assume I'm wrong. I am an interested amateur who views all 'scientific facts' with caution from all camps.
We won't agree, but you have said that 34.5g is the optimal amount of protein per meal. Exactly when can I have my next lump of protein in that case? Does it matter if I consume this with fats or carbs (and what GI?). Does it matter if I have trained in the last five minutes? If I have 38g, will I waste the precious 3.5g? I honestly think if you re-read Aragon's article with an open mind you will not be so staunchly behind the magic number stated. If you are on a constant voyage of discovery, I would imagine you would be receptive to new suppositions?
If we take a single example - can you explain why it is possible for someone who is applying IF, eating 1-2 meals a day with the full days quota of protein in those meals is not lacking in protein? If it were me, I would be looking at around 200g protein per day in a minimum of 100g per meal.
Creatine Loading.
Yes, your body does create creatine itself which is (put simply) used for explosive short term movements like lifting heavy weights. Creatine supplementation adds to that which is created naturally. A loading phase is usually 20g per day for 5-14 days depending on the label. That equates to about 100g to 280g of creatine that you've used of your chosen supplement company's product. If you take only 5g per day, you will still reach saturation, albeit, a few days after you will when loading. My comment was relating to the need not to use as much and hence spend so much money for minimal actual benefit. As for timing of creatine, that is irrelevant also.
At least we agree about the whey thing.....
Meal timing.
OK, yes, if you have a very manual job which will equate to a lot of physical work done, it makes sense to eat more regularly but for the majority who do not have these types of jobs, regular feeding is not necessary. An athelete training for long distance running would need more calories and the easy way to get these is by eating more often.
PWO Carbs.
A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
In repsonse to your question, your goals will dictate generally the volume of calories consumed, the macronutrient ratios and the training you undertake. Apart from making it easier to hit the nummbers, carbs on their own, at any time of the day will not be a hinderance. If you eat 200g carbs per day and have these stacked earlier in the day, in terms of results, you will experience the same if these are stacked earlier in the day. Maybe personally, enegy levels may be different but this is a different point.
Muscle Confusion.
As far as muscle confusion goes - this is as old school as you can get. Are you not keeping your muscles guessing by progressively overloading them each workout, thus subjecting them to greater stress each time? If that isn't adaption, I'm not sure what is?
Sorry for the lack of quoting - I haven't posted much so will learn that tomorrow..
As you have mentioned, nothing personal and It's handy to discuss things.
To be clear, my post is not a 'IT WORKED FOR ME' thread and my comments regarding nutrition / exercise are not anecdotal.
Mattikake - thanks for your detailed reply. I assume you work in the field being as you have 'clients'. I do not and haven't tried to say I am but I'm guessing that will just make some assume I'm wrong. I am an interested amateur who views all 'scientific facts' with caution from all camps.
We won't agree, but you have said that 34.5g is the optimal amount of protein per meal. Exactly when can I have my next lump of protein in that case? Does it matter if I consume this with fats or carbs (and what GI?). Does it matter if I have trained in the last five minutes? If I have 38g, will I waste the precious 3.5g? I honestly think if you re-read Aragon's article with an open mind you will not be so staunchly behind the magic number stated. If you are on a constant voyage of discovery, I would imagine you would be receptive to new suppositions?
If we take a single example - can you explain why it is possible for someone who is applying IF, eating 1-2 meals a day with the full days quota of protein in those meals is not lacking in protein? If it were me, I would be looking at around 200g protein per day in a minimum of 100g per meal.
Creatine Loading.
Yes, your body does create creatine itself which is (put simply) used for explosive short term movements like lifting heavy weights. Creatine supplementation adds to that which is created naturally. A loading phase is usually 20g per day for 5-14 days depending on the label. That equates to about 100g to 280g of creatine that you've used of your chosen supplement company's product. If you take only 5g per day, you will still reach saturation, albeit, a few days after you will when loading. My comment was relating to the need not to use as much and hence spend so much money for minimal actual benefit. As for timing of creatine, that is irrelevant also.
At least we agree about the whey thing.....
Meal timing.
OK, yes, if you have a very manual job which will equate to a lot of physical work done, it makes sense to eat more regularly but for the majority who do not have these types of jobs, regular feeding is not necessary. An athelete training for long distance running would need more calories and the easy way to get these is by eating more often.
PWO Carbs.
A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
In repsonse to your question, your goals will dictate generally the volume of calories consumed, the macronutrient ratios and the training you undertake. Apart from making it easier to hit the nummbers, carbs on their own, at any time of the day will not be a hinderance. If you eat 200g carbs per day and have these stacked earlier in the day, in terms of results, you will experience the same if these are stacked earlier in the day. Maybe personally, enegy levels may be different but this is a different point.
Muscle Confusion.
As far as muscle confusion goes - this is as old school as you can get. Are you not keeping your muscles guessing by progressively overloading them each workout, thus subjecting them to greater stress each time? If that isn't adaption, I'm not sure what is?
Sorry for the lack of quoting - I haven't posted much so will learn that tomorrow..
As you have mentioned, nothing personal and It's handy to discuss things.
horico said:
PWO Carbs.
A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
An intake of carbs will fight the catabolic effects of cortisol, and reduce possible muscle wasting.A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol#Production_a...
http://www.wisc-online.com/objects/ViewObject.aspx...
Halb said:
An intake of carbs will fight the catabolic effects of cortisol, and reduce possible muscle wasting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol#Production_a...
http://www.wisc-online.com/objects/ViewObject.aspx...
The goal is generally to be in a 'net' anabolic state. Yes, at some points in the day you will be catabolic (as you allude to) and others you will be anabolic. As a whole, and simply, this is determined by your calorie intake vs requirements. Your comment assumes that anyone eating a low carb diet will not be able to build muscle due to the nucleogenesis going on. This is simply not true and the effects of cortisol (and GH for that matter) are wildly over reported in responses such as this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol#Production_a...
http://www.wisc-online.com/objects/ViewObject.aspx...
Am I missing something but isn't the goal of lifting weights to encourage catabolism in the first instance? Protein afterwards will then encourage anabolism.
horico said:
The goal is generally to be in a 'net' anabolic state. Yes, at some points in the day you will be catabolic (as you allude to) and others you will be anabolic. As a whole, and simply, this is determined by your calorie intake vs requirements. Your comment assumes that anyone eating a low carb diet will not be able to build muscle due to the nucleogenesis going on. This is simply not true and the effects of cortisol (and GH for that matter) are wildly over reported in responses such as this.
Am I missing something but isn't the goal of lifting weights to encourage catabolism in the first instance? Protein afterwards will then encourage anabolism.
Muscle building might happen, but it will happen quicker/more so with an intake post workout.Am I missing something but isn't the goal of lifting weights to encourage catabolism in the first instance? Protein afterwards will then encourage anabolism.
Halb said:
Muscle building might happen, but it will happen quicker/more so with an intake post workout.
Sorry, protein is insulinogenic, whey particularly so. This response is what is manipulated to stop catabolism. You will move to an anabolic state with this protein only, carbs are not required. Post training, protein synthesis will be elevated for a period (several hours) in which the body will be very receptive to protein intake. Supplement companies have assisted in perpetuating the myth that this is not the case and seconds after you finish training, you need protein and a lump of fast carbs PWO. Even better, start on the PWO before you finish your last set!
I doubt we'll agree buddy but this is where my understanding is at the mo.
Cheers
horico said:
Sorry, protein is insulinogenic, whey particularly so. This response is what is manipulated to stop catabolism. You will move to an anabolic state with this protein only, carbs are not required. Post training, protein synthesis will be elevated for a period (several hours) in which the body will be very receptive to protein intake.
Supplement companies have assisted in perpetuating the myth that this is not the case and seconds after you finish training, you need protein and a lump of fast carbs PWO. Even better, start on the PWO before you finish your last set!
I doubt we'll agree buddy but this is where my understanding is at the mo.
Cheers
I think you are correct in that we won't currently agree. My stance is from my current reading.Supplement companies have assisted in perpetuating the myth that this is not the case and seconds after you finish training, you need protein and a lump of fast carbs PWO. Even better, start on the PWO before you finish your last set!
I doubt we'll agree buddy but this is where my understanding is at the mo.
Cheers
Cortisol takes from muscle, combating that should be good, and I do not think disagrees with what you posted above, which is the next step with protein intake.
horico said:
I doubt we'll agree buddy but this is where my understanding is at the mo.
Halb said:
I think you are correct in that we won't currently agree. My stance is from my current reading.
Apologies for selective quoting.This is the truth of it.
There is a lot of proof/evidence for all sides of these arguments.
The problem is they're probably all right, or at least have some truth, although they may [appear to] contradict each other.
Experts disagree shocker!
You and your tattoos and union flag new mini - all unique.
Asterix said:
...and herein lies the solution - only 'you' know your body. You can try a certain way and change/amend to suit - there is the best way that works for you. The one that get's results which you're happy with.
Yes - Somatotypes, as I keep repeating, are more valid than anything. This is your baseline. This determines how your respond to exercise, diet and rest and that determines how you should tailor your exercise, diet and rest.With respect to most on here and particularly the OP, most seem to be powerlifters or bodybuilders. If you read a lot of powerlifter/bodybuilder related articles, posts and speak to these people in person, you are generally only speaking to one Somatotype group. What works for that group is *absolutely proven*, not to work for everyone and most of all, not in the same way. There are 3 main Somatotype groups with 10's of subsets... and probably so many acutal subsets of those subsets that you come back round to almost pure individuality, but know this does give you a head start.
I.e. Usain Bolt is never going to look like Mo Farah. Mo Farah is never going to look like Usain Bolt. This would remain true even if they exactly relived each others lives from the day they were born, with each others exercise and diet routines. The baseline is different. It would be like putting petrol in a diesel car and ragging the diesel to the redline everytime instead of using it's low-end torque, yet on the outside, it looks similar.
Anyway, I'm just off out to train with 2 clients who are not of the same somatotype as me. I will not be using training methods that work for me on them, likewise the diets I've been giving them are totally different from mine. Their genetics are different and their goals are different.
I'll do a more relevant quote reply thingy later.
horico said:
PWO Carbs.
A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
This is just a snippet of what you have written but illistrates my point which is the consistant throughout your posts - You state all of this and write well, but you haven't provided any proof. The only peice of literature you have provided is by one guy who, IMO is ignoring half of the sceince just to make a point. My response to this (which you ignored) gave a few references from peer reviewed journals to illustrate my point. This is were bro sceince comes from - people talking the talk and others just taking it on face value.A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
There will be disagrement even between those researching at the head of their feild. But from the recent reading I have done my view points stand as I have stated previously - In summary, there is a limit to how much you can absorb in protein in one go, post workout protein and carbs is beneficial and regular intake of foods is just the sensible way to eat. That's just on the dietry side of things from what you have stated. I can back up everything I say with solid eveidence too.
Edited for some special spelling.
Edited by balders118 on Tuesday 18th September 12:53
LordGrover said:
This is the truth of it.
There is a lot of proof/evidence for all sides of these arguments.
Most likely. There is a lot of proof/evidence for all sides of these arguments.
There are things you can do to optimise your training for your specific goals, you don't need to do all these things, but they can help.
Depends on how deep you wish to go. There isn't just one way to get to Timbuktu.
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