Only non bro's need apply....
Discussion
I speak from an official science POV because this is what I am schooled in, unless otherwise stated.
It has nothing to do with whether I agree with it, as I stated by my thoughts on that based on other biological facts afterwards, but it does not alter that this is the official science. In other words, it is on the onus of anyone who wants to disgree with that to provide evidence to do so. I have seen no evidence.
Given my professional position in the health industry, whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant.
How do you know they are not lacking in protein? I do not know of any experiments. What is a full days quota? Is that taking into account their Somatotype and training? i.e. generally, and even personally, this is very difficult to *absolutely* know.
If you have trouble pushing or want to crank out just 1 more rep, pre workout overloading wouldn't be a bad idea. The actual effects are minimal, but the post-requirement for adaption should be maximal. This is really what Creatine dosing is about.
Timing is everything. Pre and post training for Creatine matters a lot.
If you want to limit catabolism, feeding the post workout carb requirement with quickly absorbed and utilised carbs, is a good idea.
Not sure where you get the idea that the PWO requirement of carbs is low (if I'm reading that right). If anything, this is the highest it will be at any time of your life. This is partly why the insulin hormone spikes - You have just exhausted your primary energy supplies. Rule of survival requires that this be replenished asap, as you have no idea when the next predator may pounce... If you must injest your own organs for this energy (catabolism) then so be it. Fed state, is generally a slow release, which isn't a bad thing, but what you really need is a fast release, just in case...
Biology doesn't care about planning. Biology is not intelligent. Biology is a chemical reaction in the reactive world of the "now", only.
Your body and muscles will get used to continual steady overload and the rate of required surivalistic adaption will slow as a result - it will progressively get used to a progressive overload in a predictive sense (which can also be exploited to be maximised). Muscle confusion accelerates this by completely changing the environment at every turn - Your muscles never get the chance to settle into a nice steady adaptive phase and are permanently set at full-survialistic-speed. Critical difference and totally different concept and result. P90X maximises this concept (but is by no means the only concrete idea, there are many).
I.e. Confusion keeps you on edge everyday. Progression keeps you on edge every week. If you get the slim but important difference?
The jist you should be getting from this post is that it aint all that black and white, nor simple, nor conclusive. This is why considerable studies/experiments are required. This is also why the scientific community is so slow to adapt. This is why you will be met with considerable resistance and ultimately discussing it on a forum works out as pretty futile, but nevertheless good fun.
Get together 100+ guinea pigs, try the diets over the same 50 days as yourself, with the same training regime, with the same initial baseline. Then you will have something credible (and you may also be surprised at the variation of the results).
Yeah it's an rse. This is a feature of how this stuff works and what you have to do.
As an aside, I have been collecting my own data on this kind of thing for several years with lots of different people... What have I learned? The official science isn't a bad average to go by... Go figure.
horico said:
To be clear, my post is not a 'IT WORKED FOR ME' thread and my comments regarding nutrition / exercise are not anecdotal.
As said, you need to cite more than just one guy to have some credibility, or cite this guy's credibility and his numerous studies/surveys/experiments etc.horico said:
We won't agree, but you have said that 34.5g is the optimal amount of protein per meal.
For e.g., when I say "official science" that is it, official. This is what PT's to Dr's to surgeons and consultants have to quote, go-by and are examined on. It's official because this is what the scientific community have agreed on due to the results of studies/surveys/experiments etc. regardless of gut feelings and interpretations.It has nothing to do with whether I agree with it, as I stated by my thoughts on that based on other biological facts afterwards, but it does not alter that this is the official science. In other words, it is on the onus of anyone who wants to disgree with that to provide evidence to do so. I have seen no evidence.
Given my professional position in the health industry, whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant.
horico said:
Exactly when can I have my next lump of protein in that case?
After the last lot is being absorbed by your small intestines, given that you know this is what your muscle cell uptake requires. This depends on BV, type, your genetics, exercise intesity and type.horico said:
Does it matter if I consume this with fats or carbs (and what GI?).
Yes. Depends on your training, time of day, when you last ate, genetics... Fats and carbs affect the digestion, absorption and the utilisation rate.horico said:
Does it matter if I have trained in the last five minutes?
Yes. You will be in a catabolic state with an insulin spike. Fuel accordingly.horico said:
If I have 38g, will I waste the precious 3.5g?
Officially, yes. Unofficially, it aint that black and white (do the world a favour and prove it, please!).horico said:
If we take a single example - can you explain why it is possible for someone who is applying IF, eating 1-2 meals a day with the full days quota of protein in those meals is not lacking in protein?
How do you know they are not lacking in protein? I do not know of any experiments. What is a full days quota? Is that taking into account their Somatotype and training? i.e. generally, and even personally, this is very difficult to *absolutely* know.
horico said:
If it were me, I would be looking at around 200g protein per day in a minimum of 100g per meal.
Up to you, but how do you know you are utilising all of that protein? Have you checked your urine for excess protein?horico said:
Creatine Loading. My comment was relating to the need not to use as much and hence spend so much money for minimal actual benefit. As for timing of creatine, that is irrelevant also.
Depends on your goals. Creatine will increase water retention and sarco-plasmic reticulum hypertrophy, which is fast but not long-lasting. If size, bulk and apparent hypertrophy is what you are after, dosing unnaturally on Creatine isn't such a bad thing.If you have trouble pushing or want to crank out just 1 more rep, pre workout overloading wouldn't be a bad idea. The actual effects are minimal, but the post-requirement for adaption should be maximal. This is really what Creatine dosing is about.
Timing is everything. Pre and post training for Creatine matters a lot.
horico said:
PWO Carbs.
A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
What if that fed state of effectual glycogen conversion, isn't enough (sometimes by a long long way) to fuel your glycogen needs?A similar argument is with regard to post workout carbs. If you train in the fed state (IE not fasted) you will not require the carbs post workout for either restoring muscle glycogen or to spike insulin. For the vast majority, muscle glycogen will restore all on it's own throughout the day and not have any impact on your day. As for spiking insulin, it is not necessary to utilise carbs to do this PWO - the increase required is very small and will be achieved with the injestion of protein only.
If you want to limit catabolism, feeding the post workout carb requirement with quickly absorbed and utilised carbs, is a good idea.
Not sure where you get the idea that the PWO requirement of carbs is low (if I'm reading that right). If anything, this is the highest it will be at any time of your life. This is partly why the insulin hormone spikes - You have just exhausted your primary energy supplies. Rule of survival requires that this be replenished asap, as you have no idea when the next predator may pounce... If you must injest your own organs for this energy (catabolism) then so be it. Fed state, is generally a slow release, which isn't a bad thing, but what you really need is a fast release, just in case...
Biology doesn't care about planning. Biology is not intelligent. Biology is a chemical reaction in the reactive world of the "now", only.
horico said:
Muscle Confusion.
As far as muscle confusion goes - this is as old school as you can get. Are you not keeping your muscles guessing by progressively overloading them each workout, thus subjecting them to greater stress each time? If that isn't adaption, I'm not sure what is?
What you describe is the Progressive Overload Principle (official old school science, yes), not muscle confusion. POP guarantees adaption but at a slow rate. Muscle Confusion increases the need for adapation at an accelerated rate, but the high confusion is difficult to maintain.As far as muscle confusion goes - this is as old school as you can get. Are you not keeping your muscles guessing by progressively overloading them each workout, thus subjecting them to greater stress each time? If that isn't adaption, I'm not sure what is?
Your body and muscles will get used to continual steady overload and the rate of required surivalistic adaption will slow as a result - it will progressively get used to a progressive overload in a predictive sense (which can also be exploited to be maximised). Muscle confusion accelerates this by completely changing the environment at every turn - Your muscles never get the chance to settle into a nice steady adaptive phase and are permanently set at full-survialistic-speed. Critical difference and totally different concept and result. P90X maximises this concept (but is by no means the only concrete idea, there are many).
I.e. Confusion keeps you on edge everyday. Progression keeps you on edge every week. If you get the slim but important difference?
The jist you should be getting from this post is that it aint all that black and white, nor simple, nor conclusive. This is why considerable studies/experiments are required. This is also why the scientific community is so slow to adapt. This is why you will be met with considerable resistance and ultimately discussing it on a forum works out as pretty futile, but nevertheless good fun.
Get together 100+ guinea pigs, try the diets over the same 50 days as yourself, with the same training regime, with the same initial baseline. Then you will have something credible (and you may also be surprised at the variation of the results).
Yeah it's an rse. This is a feature of how this stuff works and what you have to do.
As an aside, I have been collecting my own data on this kind of thing for several years with lots of different people... What have I learned? The official science isn't a bad average to go by... Go figure.
Edited by mattikake on Wednesday 19th September 00:00
Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff