Alcoholism? Help Needed.....

[mph1977]

Hoink said:

The Beaver King said:

I would avoid focusing on the alcohol and instead talk to her about the underlying problem that is making her turn to drink. Could she be suffering from PND?

Agreed.

double agreed

[towser]

So....I've not had a chat yet. Time hasn't been right, I did a little more rooting around this morning though before I went to work. Vodka bottle is fuller than it was yesterday, plastic container still in bathroom cabinet, and there's also a glass stashed in there. I think the container in the bathroom contains vodka + mixer of some kind.

Some of you have mentioned PND. I was concerned about this a few months ago as she was very tearful and behaviour was erratic. I suggested that she should see a GP who only suggested anti-depressants which she felt wasn't an acceptable solution. Subsequently seen a counsellor - although what she's been discussing with them I've not been privy to and I don't particularly feel it's my position to ask. However, I have since been accused of suggesting to her that she was "mad" and "forcing" her to go to a GP.......so it's obviously a touchy subject.

I'm actually concerned for her and my daughter. I'm really worried about what happens during the day now. I'm fairly convinced there's no drinking during the day, but why go to the effort of concealing drink?

I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm also angry that she'd put our little girl in that position. She needs two parents she can rely on. At the moment I don't think that's the case. Sorry for the rant. I need to have a chat this weekend, probably tonight as little one is with grandparents. Not looking forward to it - not sure how to start....not sure "how are you doing?" will open things up.....or start with "I don't think we should drink in the house...." and bring the issue up..

[Oldred_V8S]

Tyre Smoke said:

Snowy, are you my long lost twin?

I know exactly what you mean. My wife is exactly the same - without the bottle of wine a night. She is still attending AA but after three weeks is already making the 'it's a waste of time/not for me' noises. She too is hiding the drink but not admitting drinking despite being paralytic.

I am at my wits end, would have left were it not for my son who's 8. I sometimes feel so alone trying to deal with it, that I've started writing a blog. I'm not writing it for any other reason than it's like talking it through with someone. It helps.

Triplets?

So much written in this thread is familiar. The "it's not for me, it's a waste of time" statement, The partner being paralytic, despite being unseen to drink anything. I recall my wife would sit in front of the TV trying desperately to focus on the screen and appear sober then would give up and disappear upstairs to do some "ironing." My God for a family of 4 we seemed to have one hell of a lot of ironing. The hidden drink all over the house; Once I found a full wine box foil bag (removed from the cardboard holder) in her handbag!

I recall one night when she went to bed about 15 minutes before me. By the time i got to bed i could smell drink on her and awoke her to tell her so. She leapt out of bed and could hardly stand she was so drunk. It really was heartbreaking, to think drink was being chosen over me, our marriage and the happiness of our children. I tried so many times and ways to get my wife the help she needed and each time she would start off fine, attending meetings and appearing to abstain, then the excuses would start, the "I cannot go tonight I need to do some work, but will go next week, I promise." And then the smell of spirits (yes vodka again, I can detect the smell) and the unsteadiness, I will never forget the dead look in the eyes, like those of a shark, God I will never forget that look, I could tell instantly I looked at my wife, a women who was once always smiling and who lit up a room when she entered it, had been drinking, just by the eyes.

One day it came to a head and I told her that if she didn't get herself sorted by the time my youngest was sixteen I would have no option but to leave. I thought this may galvanise her into one final effort but it was a waste of breath.

I recall the confrontations when the robustness of her response to the question "Have you been drinking?" would be far in excess of the strength of the question. I told her that all the time I am asking the question it means I still care and that she should worry when I stop asking. Eventually I stopped asking/caring and that was the end.

At the time we were breaking up we went to a wedding of some friends. Nobody knew what we were going through and we decided to keep it a secret until afterwards. Another couple there who were probably the closest joint friends we had, knew nothing of it. I was talking to the husband and then went to the Gents. My wife took the opportunity to walk up to him and say "Paul's leaving me" She then left the room before saying any more and before I returned. My friends head is spinning wondering what was going on and was I seeing another woman. I thought he seemed a bit frosty when I returned but thought nothing more of it. He invited me out for drink a few nights later and asked what was going on. I explained the reason and he seemed a bit more understanding, he had witnessed my wife's drinking excess but pressed me to get her some help. I explained i had been trying for 20 years without success and that this was the end of the road.

When my daughter had completed her exams I left the marital home. Although I was now on my own, the sense of relief was immense, no more would I have to look at a woman who's actions had sucked every last bit of love and concern for her, out of me, who had turned herself into a walking zombie and me along with her. I was now free and with the love and support of my family and some very good friends I have managed to turn my life around. I bought her half of the house to ensure that my children could remain in the family home and have some stability at a stage in their lives when they probably needed it. It has left me stretched financially, but the children seem happy enough.

She is in another relationship now and by all accounts this guy is doing her no favours, it appears he is just as bad. I still have to talk to her from time to time about issues regarding our children, but I always do it in the day, as to call her in the evening is to be met with an incomprehensible mess.

I regret what happened, when I married it was for ever, or so I thought. Drink has ruined this and at a time in our lives when we should be getting the children off our hands, be mortgage free, enjoying time together and looking forward to retirement, I am now staring another 20 years of work in the face to pay off the largest mortgage I have ever had. Still I would never go back to those lonely times with all the lies and deceit, not for anything.

Edited by Oldred_V8S on Friday 23 November 10:10

[Tyre Smoke]

Amen brother. Just what I am going through now.

OP, just sit her down with a 'we need to talk' opener. Make two cups of tea/coffee/soft drinks and look her in the eye and tell her you know about the hidden drink. Tell her you are not judging her (and make sure you don't come across all judgmental!!) and that you want to understand why, and if possible, help and support her. Is it because she can't cope, needs you to do more,etc,etc. You need to go a bit mumsnet on her to be honest.

[The Beaver King]

towser said:

So....I've not had a chat yet. Time hasn't been right, I did a little more rooting around this morning though before I went to work. Vodka bottle is fuller than it was yesterday, plastic container still in bathroom cabinet, and there's also a glass stashed in there. I think the container in the bathroom contains vodka + mixer of some kind.

Some of you have mentioned PND. I was concerned about this a few months ago as she was very tearful and behaviour was erratic. I suggested that she should see a GP who only suggested anti-depressants which she felt wasn't an acceptable solution. Subsequently seen a counsellor - although what she's been discussing with them I've not been privy to and I don't particularly feel it's my position to ask. However, I have since been accused of suggesting to her that she was "mad" and "forcing" her to go to a GP.......so it's obviously a touchy subject.

I'm actually concerned for her and my daughter. I'm really worried about what happens during the day now. I'm fairly convinced there's no drinking during the day, but why go to the effort of concealing drink?

I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm also angry that she'd put our little girl in that position. She needs two parents she can rely on. At the moment I don't think that's the case. Sorry for the rant. I need to have a chat this weekend, probably tonight as little one is with grandparents. Not looking forward to it - not sure how to start....not sure "how are you doing?" will open things up.....or start with "I don't think we should drink in the house...." and bring the issue up..

There is not going to be an easy way to approach this, but once the conversation has started it should get easier.

I wouldn't mention that you've been looking for evidence, it'll only make her feel like you are against her. Instead maybe mention that you found the original container while looking for something else. Ask her if she is okay, is she finding things difficult or struggling to sleep?

I went through a stage of drinking before bed every night because I couldn't sleep unless I was semi-drunk. Maybe she is stressed or worked up over something and looking for a release.

YOu must be very gentle in approaching this with her and not let it desend into an argument, otherwise it will only end badly. Let her know you are on her side, show concern for her health and well being. I wouldn't say anything about the kid or cast any doubts on her ability to be a mother, that is a sure fire way to push her away.

From what you've written above, it seems she resents you a bit for making her see the GP. Instead, why not try and 'guide' her down a route but let her make the decisions? You need her to feel like she can talk to you without being judged.

Good luck OP.

[Smitters]

OP - I think the only practical advice I can give is that once you've broached the discussion, if you feel it heading towards arguments and accusations, get up and make a cuppa or something. Tell your wife you love her, want to talk about it and you want to help in any way you can, but do not point fingers on any account. This is the time to zip up the mansuit and take any flak that comes your way with big broad shoulders. By all means go ape on here, but the nanosecond of feeling better for giving it to her with both barrels will be followed up by months if not years of payment.

I know nothing of PND, so that aside, your wife will probably know she has a problem and is terrified, feels trapped in a vicious circle and doesn't know what to do. Drinking seems like her escape. Now is the time to remind her she is not alone and that the both of you can work as a team. You might not know how, of when, or what to do, but the fact that you're standing there offering unconditional help will be A. GOOD. THING.

Good luck.

[prand]

Good lord, some of these tales take difficult reading.

My sympathies and huge man hugs go to all of you who are going through this. Me and Mrs P currently have (some might say) an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, and are going through the stress of bringing up two new children.

I am acutely aware that either of us could slide down the slope into compulsive and uncontrolled drinking if the right conditions presented themselves. Ironically having children has forced us to cut back, which can only be a good thing, but we still enjoy a good drink, and many of our social activities revolve around this. Scarily, my wife has a great interest in wine - is "formally trained" and is close to embarking in a career in wine buying/selling. This involves a lot of wine tasting!

Some control and will power is required, but it does nag at me as it seems if you're predisposed, you can't control it. Do we remove alcohol from our lives? Or will be just being honest and open with each other enough to ensure we just enjoy a drink.

I hope you can make this work OP, it seems that with some of the stories above is that bringing it out in the open does not always solve things, it needs massive committment and trust from both sides.

[Zad]

I think we all get used to medical problems that are either easily treatable or which we naturally recover from. A few days for a cold, a couple of weeks (or maybe a couple of months) for proper 'flu etc. We don't know quite how to handle more long term things. Especially so for problems that aren't visibly obvious. When treatment doesn't fix things after a few months, it is easy to think that it isn't fixable, or at least treatable to reduce the impact.

If she won't see the doctor, accept counselling or take antidepressants, then perhaps you could see the GP or look into an alcohol / dependancy support group? Not for her, but for yourself. You will need to know how to deal with it as much as she does. I imagine a support group will be used to the various excuses and accusations which people with dependency use, and will be able to offer practical advice. What language not to use, how to avoid being accusatory, how to be supportive in he right way etc.

As a thought, hormone replacement may be a better approach than anti-depressants. Obviously this is the opinion of an engineer and not a medical professional, but it is something to discuss with the doctor anyway. I can't see life as the parent of a kid who is growing up getting any less stressful.

[towser]

Hi folks, so I managed the chat last night after the little one went to sleep. She knew that I'd found her stash, probably because I'd made it fairly obvious.

Anyway she had a fairly emotional outburst about not being able to cope. About feeling useless, and unattractive and a bad mother. That she felt nothing would last and it would all end badly because that's what always happens to her.

I found this heartbreaking.

I'm assuming by what I've read that as some of you have already mentioned that it's PND in some shape or form.

I'm furious with her GP who offered her nothing apart from anti depressants - which was not what she wants. Apparently the waiting list for counseling was too long for the GP to feel it was worth it!!! Sounds to me like she's been hung out to dry and has struggled as a result.

She has had some cbt privately, but I got the feeling she just didn't feel she engaged with the counsellor.

So not sure what to do next.....are there any agencies that specialise in pnd treatment?

[GBDG]

Anti-depressants are a much better short term solution than vodka. She should give them some serious consideration, at least in the short term. As the child gets older & sleeps better, the stresses will reduce a bit.

[mph1977]

GBDG said:

Anti-depressants are a much better short term solution than vodka. She should give them some serious consideration, at least in the short term. As the child gets older & sleeps better, the stresses will reduce a bit.

i'd agree with that. the right (for you) SSRI can make a huge difference, there seems to be some extra stigma to considering Antidepressants as a Crutch but that is exactly what they are. Nevermind those around people with depression who seem to think that kicking the crutch out from under someone is a game.

In many cases meds + talking therapies will be better than one or the other.

it's likely that the OPsOH has some kind of 'reactive' depression whether it;s explicitly PND or not ...

[Reardy Mister]

My 2p:

The key is not talking about the drink as a problem, its just a symptom and no more useful than you blaming someone who has a cold for having a runny nose. That only adds to the things she sees as her failings. Talk about the shared difficulty of being a parent, so that she can see that she isn't the only one who finds it daunting and a struggle. She may be much more forth-right with you when she feels you share a common difficulty.

Ever noticed how much better you feel when you've been worrying about something to do with your child and you meet someone else who has been struggling with the exact same thing? If you can find evidence of other people having similar challenges for your partner, you can literally see weight being lifted from her shoulders.

And don't wait around for the NHS. If she can see benefit in discussing her situation with a professional (she may feel embarrassed or judged by you so don't take it personally if she doesn't want to talk to you about it), just get her booked in somewhere. Every minute of it is a step in the right direction.

[Mobile Chicane]

GBDG said:

Mobile Chicane said:

My mother was an alcoholic, and I can honestly say that for her, attending AA was possibly the worst thing she could have done.

I think the concept of 'illness' is deeply unhelpful, since it prevents the alcoholic from taking responsibility for their own behaviour. "Yes, but I have an illness" they're told to say. Therefore they can do what they like, since it's not their fault.

The AA 'my life's story' sessions didn't help either. Compared with some of the other attendees who had literally ended up on the streets as down-and-outs, it was all too easy for her to convince herself that she didn't have a problem.

The deference to a 'Higher Power' is cobblers too. The power to change comes from the person who wants to change, and nowhere else.

I'm confused by your post, taken directly from the 12 steps:

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

How is that advocating absolving oneself of responsibility?

In terms of the "life story" part, the purpose of the sharing is to share in ones "experience, strength, and hope", not a competition to see who has the worst life story. It would take a very distorted perspective to view things how you have stated them.

The deference to a higher power is necessary to someone at rock bottom. How can someone who has reached the lowest of the low look inside themselves and find any strength - they have proven to be a failure. Unfortunately, many don't and that is sadly why the recovery rates are so low. Finding a higher power gives people a hope to rebuild themselves. The power can be anything, it can be faith in humanity. But someone who has nothing needs to believe in something to succeed.

I'm not a member of AA myself, but I will be eternally grateful for the impact it has had on my life. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative, and it would be very sad to see people deterred from help because of incorrect advice on the internet.

Hey, I'm glad AA worked for you. Truly I am.

However it doesn't work for everyone.

In my mother's case, she took the 'making amends' elements of the 12 Steps to mean that saying sorry was enough. Since she was 'ill', she could carry on behaving as before, because she couldn't help it...

Perhaps she had a particularly weak group leader; I have no idea. However I think that alcohol treatment programmes ought to be run by qualified psychologists in accordance with clinically proven protocols, rather than well-meaning do-gooders with no scientific training.

However, I digress.

@ the OP, your partner needs help now, and shouldn't be scared of anti-depressants.

I can tell you that the difference felt when these take effect is literally the difference between night and day. Think of it that anti-depressants 'reboot' the brain to a more positive way of thinking, which CBT can then build on.

Without this 'rebooting' I think you're in for a long and hard slog. Reason being that it is scientifically proven that negative moods adversely affect your ability to recall anything other than negative memories. That can't be a good intro to CBT, since the success of this hinges on the patient's ability to understand and challenge their negative beliefs about themselves.

A warning flag for me was in one of the OP's latter posts where his partner reportedly said something along the lines of, "It will all go wrong, again". Not good.

[Captain Cadillac]

towser said:

Hi folks, so I managed the chat last night after the little one went to sleep. She knew that I'd found her stash, probably because I'd made it fairly obvious.

Anyway she had a fairly emotional outburst about not being able to cope. About feeling useless, and unattractive and a bad mother. That she felt nothing would last and it would all end badly because that's what always happens to her.

I found this heartbreaking.

I'm assuming by what I've read that as some of you have already mentioned that it's PND in some shape or form.

I'm furious with her GP who offered her nothing apart from anti depressants - which was not what she wants. Apparently the waiting list for counseling was too long for the GP to feel it was worth it!!! Sounds to me like she's been hung out to dry and has struggled as a result.

She has had some cbt privately, but I got the feeling she just didn't feel she engaged with the counsellor.

So not sure what to do next.....are there any agencies that specialise in pnd treatment?

This made me smile. And I'm not being a smartass. From the sounds of things she's overcome the biggest hurdle to getting better, she admits and realizes that she has a problem and wants to get better. Until an addict does this they simply are never going to get better. Ever. Until an addict wants to get better, they won't, and generally this happens once they've hit rock bottom and often after they have fked their lives up severely.

So, if I'm reading I to this correctly, she's in much better shape than you may have thought, this is very encouraging.

I have a very close family member who is a recovering addict/alcoholic. She was plastered on coke and vodka while holding virtually perfect grades, on a double major, at a very highly esteemed university. Once she entered law school (where she's also getting her MBA) she kept to booze and still got effectively perfect grades. While absolutely plastered drunk. She'd drink a bottle of vodka during the day and then get blackout drunk numerous times a week.

I had no clue, I thought she had trouble handling her drinking so she had stopped. Nope, nothing further from the truth. One day I got a call and she was in tears, said she needed to get to rehab, that she was an out of control alcoholic and was afraid she would die. She had one minor relapse right after rehab (went to a pizzeria and ordered wine out of habit).

Since then she's been sober more than 2 years and is doing great. She's embraced AA and I couldn't be more proud of her.

Is it a disease? I think so. I'm talking about someone who functioned at a higher level while drunk than 95% of the population can function while sober. Someone incredibly smart and capable, and someone who, had they wanted, could have also been in the Olympics for gymnastics. She's excelled at anything she's ever tried, except that I can go to a bar, have a couple of beers and call it a day. She can't. She cannot control her intake of alcohol, and, looking back, has never been able to. Everyone has their faults as none of us are perfect, alcoholics cannot manage their use of alcohol. They virtually always need help to get better and it sometimes takes several tries. It's not easy but the results are well worth it.

I have my sister back, and that, to me, is priceless.

[boobles]

I feel that things could get alot better/easier for her as a result in "letting it all out" to you.
The biggest hurdle may have been overcome simply by talking about it to you. Keep us informed & hopefully this is the start of better things for the both of you.

[happychap]

towser said:

Hi folks, so I managed the chat last night after the little one went to sleep. She knew that I'd found her stash, probably because I'd made it fairly obvious.

Anyway she had a fairly emotional outburst about not being able to cope. About feeling useless, and unattractive and a bad mother. That she felt nothing would last and it would all end badly because that's what always happens to her.

I found this heartbreaking.

I'm assuming by what I've read that as some of you have already mentioned that it's PND in some shape or form.

I'm furious with her GP who offered her nothing apart from anti depressants - which was not what she wants. Apparently the waiting list for counseling was too long for the GP to feel it was worth it!!! Sounds to me like she's been hung out to dry and has struggled as a result.

She has had some cbt privately, but I got the feeling she just didn't feel she engaged with the counsellor.

So not sure what to do next.....are there any agencies that specialise in pnd treatment?

Now that her "Secret" is out, you can now openly support her. If you can afford private counselling CBT can have some positive outcomes for some people. If your wife gets on with CBT but not that perticular counsellor find another counsellor that she feels more comfortable with.

Have you asked her what she feels like now she has opened up to you, you both need support through this period, many Alcohol Services offer support to Family members who are experiencing your situation.

Not an easy situation, keep talking together and access support for both of you. Good luck.

[mattnunn]

towser said:

Anyway she had a fairly emotional outburst about not being able to cope. About feeling useless, and unattractive and a bad mother. That she felt nothing would last and it would all end badly because that's what always happens to her.

The good news is that this is entirely normal behaviour for new mothers, baby blues and/or pnd really is very common and you will both get through this difficult patch. Your GP will be well versed in dealing with this, and if she/he isn't helping then ask to see another GP, anti depressants were prescribed to my wife but she only took them for a bit, on and off when needed, they should work and at least take the edge off so you can start to plan a coping strategy, it takes time and essentially is just something you have to ride out. CBT is only going to help but I wouldn't discount the chemical option to get your wife started and stabilised. You have to be open and rational to accept CBT in my ill formed opinion, it may take a bit of time to get her to that point.

Obviously drink is only going ex acerbate any problem and in my non medical opinion I'd have thought drink with anti depressants isn't a good way forward.

[lenats31]

Slink said:

No, Ill think you will find it is not.

its an addiction, like getting addicted to meths, or pot. they are not diseased so they want to smoke or drink, they are addicted.

i get really pissed off when people say that its a disease, as it bloody well isnt, and thats what AA tells you, when it fking isnt.

sorry to go OT but it needed to be said.

Alcoholism has been classified as a disease and is implemented here:

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders

Edited by lenats31 on Monday 26th November 14:22