The Supplement Science thread

[Halb]

A thread for discussion of supplements and ideas for helping with all aspects of training.
I have played with many supplements, don't really take any anymore, but I am not closed to the idea of them. Last sorts I took were gels for running. Oh and a vegan protein drink for easy lunches.

Starting training again, and I may play with some things out there.

Brinkzone's personal pre-workout drink mix.
http://www.brinkzone.com/supplement-science/save-m...

Thoughts?

[LostBMW]

I'll get back to you in a little while. I'm just waiting for a call from Mr. Armstrong...





Might be a long and expensive shopping list though.

[Warnie]

I think the supplement industry are starting to suffer as the general public become more and more aware of the complete an utter rubbish a lot of them produce backed up by an expensive marketing campaigne usally. There starting to lose credibility and will soon have a shake out for every hour of the day...

Don't get me wrong some are ok, I myself just take 10mg of BCAA If I train fasted, I used to take protein, In fact I did for many many years but disliked the side affects I.e a lot of wind and an empty wallet;)

Haven't trained with protein for a couple of years now, just eat better and still make the same gains.

[Halb]

Hope the chat goes well BM...

Warnie said:

Don't get me wrong some are ok, I myself just take 10mg of BCAA If I train fasted, I used to take protein, In fact I did for many many years but disliked the side affects I.e a lot of wind and an empty wallet;)

BCAAs used in a cutting (or fasting state I suppose) seems to be the best use of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-lAqYRcQi8


Anyone bought the Brinkzone bible.

[Ordinary_Chap]

I like Brink but I like his work on a light hearted basis.

Most rate, Charles Poliquin, Lyle McDonald and other professional trainers like Hambo/Skip et al higher.

I do often read his site though as I find him interesting and engaging.

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/

I find BCAA's have a curious effect of reducing soreness after training which is why I take it, other benefits I'm not so sure about as they are still relatively new and there's a lot of conflicting research out there.

[mattikake]

IMO/my "understanding" is that the only supplement you should really need is a fast digesting protein for the "golden hour". Anything else can be acquired though a good natural diet for which you digestive system is already attuned. This means the for the golden hour you need the fastest digesting protein there is; 25-35g Whey Isolate or Hydrolysed Whey consumed a few minutes after an exercise routine ends. So that as much can be absorbed in as much of the golden hour as possible.

Gains can be "improved" by mixing 3-5g Glutamine in this golden hour to improve recovery and repair, particularly if you intend "strong man" exercises 5 days a week...

Performance during exercise (and therefore mirco damage/HGH/testosterone production) can be improved by taking Creatine beforehand purely to gain the extra few reps.

The rip-off stuff: I do not for any current moment agree with these "staged" release mechanisms proclaimed by (expensive) products that mix proteins and carbs of varying complexity (and therefore absorption speed). It might sound like a good idea to mix fast and slow proteins and carbs but your digestive system, biologically speaking, cannot really distinguish between these macro-nutrients and which to absorb, when. It just absorbs what it can with what is has to absorb them. There is no trickery to be had because no trickery can be effective. Mixing macro-nutrients that absorb at different rates just means your digestive system is going to lower-out and absorb at the slowest rate - it's the same principle that means mixing fats with your carbs slows your absorption rate to that of fats, not carbs, for something like your breakfast. It's the same reason why coca cola is going to cause a blood sugar spike, and type 2 diabetes, but a bowl of porridge, won't.

NB: there were a lot of systems listed in double quotes.

edit/NB2: a pre-workout drink just needs to include fast digesting sugars, but then, not even that. I.e. want to start a workout in 3 hours, have some carbs and protein that takes about 2 1/2 hours to digest. Want to start a workout in 1 hour, have some carbs and protein that takes about 45 minutes to digest. As for the rest, your body will deal out things like creatine in ehough time easily enough (20mins recovery switch-over + 20 mintues Liver synthesis).

NB3: but then, it's an in-exact science.

Edited by mattikake on Saturday 9th February 22:08

[didelydoo]

Caffeine, dimethylamylamine (from Jack3d etc) and Whey/protein are the only supps I've found useful. I'm a big pre-workout fan. I've made my own before with Caffeine, Beta Alanine etc before- but caffeine on it's own does the job just fine.

Creatine I'm still in two minds on, though generally positive about, cheap too.

Oats and/or cornflour play a big role in my recovery, though not a supp as such.

Cissus was a miracle cure for elbow tendinitis a year or so back.

Other than that, I've found most other things a (expensive) waste of money.

[Driller]

Are there actually any independent scientific studies that show the superiority of the (legal) stuff over real food?

[goldblum]

There's only three supplements that are proven in peer reviewed research to contribute to muscle hypertrophy: Creatine phosphate and Gamma-Hydroxybutyrate (GHB).

BCAA supplements help by contributing to protein synthesis:

"The major finding of the present study is that branched-chain amino acid ingestion during and after acute resistance exercise increases site-specific phosphorylation and activation of p70S6k in skeletal muscle".

Or, in a nutshell:

"During recovery from exercise, BCAA have an anabolic effect in human skeletal muscle (4). "

American Journal of Physiology Endocrinology and Metabolism
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/287/1/E1.ful...

[Driller]

Mmm, 7 subjects, that's not enough.

Are there no studies at all for the protein powders?

[goldblum]

Oh and if you're on C make sure you have enough carbs floating about..

"Carbohydrate ingestion augments skeletal muscle creatine accumulation during creatine supplementation in humans":

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/271/5/E821.r...

[Ordinary_Chap]

goldblum said:

Oh and if you're on C make sure you have enough carbs floating about..

"Carbohydrate ingestion augments skeletal muscle creatine accumulation during creatine supplementation in humans":

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/271/5/E821.r...

Interesting stuff Goldblum, thanks for posting.

I personally take a simple view of this and use;

Protein powder/BCAA's
Vitamin C
Creatine (it's super cheap and has proven benefits)

And thats about it! Sometimes I take a pre-workout supplement if I'm feeling a bit lethargic before the session.

Sure there are some other supplements which show some benefit but then does the 0.001 increase really matter? I view myself as flawed in that I don't always eat all of the right foods and like a drink maybe a couple of times a week. I'd personally get more benefit from fixing those items than adding another supplement.

[Regiment]

Ordinary_Chap said:

Interesting stuff Goldblum, thanks for posting.

I personally take a simple view of this and use;

Protein powder/BCAA's
Vitamin C
Creatine (it's super cheap and has proven benefits)

And thats about it! Sometimes I take a pre-workout supplement if I'm feeling a bit lethargic before the session.

Why only a vitamin C and not a multivitamin/multi nutrient?

[Ordinary_Chap]

Regiment said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

Interesting stuff Goldblum, thanks for posting.

I personally take a simple view of this and use;

Protein powder/BCAA's
Vitamin C
Creatine (it's super cheap and has proven benefits)

And thats about it! Sometimes I take a pre-workout supplement if I'm feeling a bit lethargic before the session.

Why only a vitamin C and not a multivitamin/multi nutrient?

I take Vitamin C in pretty high quantities as it seems to keep my immune system functioning well. If I train very hard over about 2 weeks without it I often find I suffer illness and other symptoms like throbbing painful gums and other things after training. I've tried training with and without it several times always to the same affect.

So I've found it to be very useful in that sense, its also a good anti-inflammatory.

In terms of other vitamins, I try to eat a varied and healthy diet and as such I shouldn't need them, I wouldn't also be able to get the amount of vitamin C I want in a mufti-vitamin without OD'ing on everything else.

[Driller]

Sorry Goldblum, didn't mean to pooh-pooh what you were providing, just saying that when you examine things more closely, there is more than first meets the eye.

I suppose it's a bit idealist looking for overwhelming evidence on this subject.

[mattikake]

So does no-one "do" Glutamine then?

AFAIK, amongst Testosterone and HGH etc. anabolism is about positive Nitrogen balance and Glutamine is the primary transporter of N into the muscles. From what I have read, it seems to be about as important to muscle/protein synthesis as Leucine.

And even more so for recovery and reducing the effects and length of DOMS and/or fatigue/overtraining (which I can get in my forearms in as little as 2 consecutive weeks). I have loads of milk, peanuts, upped by egg intake for good Glutamine sources, but still get slight overtraining issues, which means I find I often have to do as little as 2 weeks on, 1 week off.

Of all the things I've read recently I'm going to be trying L-Glutamine with a pure Whey supplement for post-workout, for the first time starting tomorrow. I'm going to start a dense and frequent stongman routine that will need good recovery.

I guess I'll be reporting on any differences I notice...

[smiffy180]

mattikake said:

So does no-one "do" Glutamine then?

AFAIK, amongst Testosterone and HGH etc. anabolism is about positive Nitrogen balance and Glutamine is the primary transporter of N into the muscles. From what I have read, it seems to be about as important to muscle/protein synthesis as Leucine.

And even more so for recovery and reducing the effects and length of DOMS and/or fatigue/overtraining (which I can get in my forearms in as little as 2 consecutive weeks). I have loads of milk, peanuts, upped by egg intake for good Glutamine sources, but still get slight overtraining issues, which means I find I often have to do as little as 2 weeks on, 1 week off.

Of all the things I've read recently I'm going to be trying L-Glutamine with a pure Whey supplement for post-workout, for the first time starting tomorrow. I'm going to start a dense and frequent stongman routine that will need good recovery.

I guess I'll be reporting on any differences I notice...

i tried it and the shop that sold me it swore by it. Personally i couldnt tell the difference
Edit: keep a log to compare with and without it

[LostBMW]

smiffy180 said:

mattikake said:

So does no-one "do" Glutamine then?

AFAIK, amongst Testosterone and HGH etc. anabolism is about positive Nitrogen balance and Glutamine is the primary transporter of N into the muscles. From what I have read, it seems to be about as important to muscle/protein synthesis as Leucine.

And even more so for recovery and reducing the effects and length of DOMS and/or fatigue/overtraining (which I can get in my forearms in as little as 2 consecutive weeks). I have loads of milk, peanuts, upped by egg intake for good Glutamine sources, but still get slight overtraining issues, which means I find I often have to do as little as 2 weeks on, 1 week off.

Of all the things I've read recently I'm going to be trying L-Glutamine with a pure Whey supplement for post-workout, for the first time starting tomorrow. I'm going to start a dense and frequent stongman routine that will need good recovery.

I guess I'll be reporting on any differences I notice...

i tried it and the shop that sold me it swore by it. Personally i couldnt tell the difference
Edit: keep a log to compare with and without it

Ah, but you can't be working your forearms hard enough!

[N88]

Glutamine article for anyone who's interested: http://articles.muscletalk.co.uk/article-glutamine...

[Driller]

Again, sorry to sound negative but:

"Does it work?
That is the million dollar question and the one that scientists failed to answer because it depends on what you mean by 'work'. Which is not much of an answer at all; so, to summarise the current position: it could. "

What on earth can that possibly mean?!