Body fat target.

[Eleven]

DuncanM said:

Do you mind telling me where you're buying it from?

Not here I won't because it's from the nutritionist. If he disappoints me I will say so and don't want to have named him here. But email me and I will give you details by all means.

I would caution against taking huge doses of magnesium without first speaking to a specialist though.

[Eleven]

DuncanM said:

Eleven said:

DuncanM said:

Do you mind telling me where you're buying it from?

Not here I won't because it's from the nutritionist. If he disappoints me I will say so and don't want to have named him here. But email me and I will give you details by all means.

I would caution against taking huge doses of magnesium without first speaking to a specialist though.

Ahh right, no worries, please keep us updated as it seems like a very interesting change in diet/work out so far .

Will do. It's certainly more profound a change than I was expecting.

[Eleven]

Okay, another two weekly check-in. Body weight up 2kg, body fat 0.1% lower, however the locations of the body fat are changing. I am leaner around the hamstrings, triceps, subscapular and fatter at the knee and umbilical. The knee is apparently indicative of stored toxins, the umbilical either stress or increased male pattern fat storage.

I am still pursuing a cycling ketogenic diet, carb night every seven days. However the nutritionist is going to send me over a more prescriptive meal plan. I am also going to taper down the magnesium.

Generally I am feeling good. I am rarely feeling hungry now and have more energy to train. The initial gains have slowed; I looked a lot fresher initially and still look that way. My appearance has not reverted to that of a twenty year old!

I am looking stocky and muscular with a good frame - at 5ft 10 and 14 stone the options are either that or lard arse and I prefer the former. The target being 11% BF, the nutritionist seems to think my body weight will be about the same, just changed composition.

[Eleven]

Another 2-week check in.

I have gained another 2kg in body weight, lost 0.5% body fat - now I am 92kg, 16.3% BF.

I am LOOKING stocky and muscular, people are commenting upon it and asking if I'm hitting the gym more. The truth is I am spending less time in the gym than I have for a couple of years.

I have still been on a cycling ketogenic diet, in theory every 8th day I have a carb night. In practice it has been every 7 days and I've had carbs, and lots of them, lunchtime onwards. I have also been rotating foods and obtaining nutrition from different sources each day.

The coming two weeks I will be having more carbs each evening, not cycling in the same way. I await the written recommendations to confirm how many.

Interestingly I am eating way more than I was before I started all of this, haven't cut out very much, and am losing fat.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

Hang on. Did your nutritionist recommend the keto diet?

Yes, though I was already using keto. Though the nutritionist has modified my diet a LOT. I am eating far more, not feeling hungry, gaining lean mass, losing fat. S'all good...

...The downsides are finding the time to cook meat a lot, having to be far more strict about everything, the cost of decent supplements and perversely putting on a lot of mass. I wanted to lose fat, gain muscle and be about the same size. However, I am gaining size at the moment.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

I'm just trying to figure out which bit is down to the nutritionist and which bit is down to general dieting/bulking advice.

I can see you:
-do keto
-take supplements
-take the nutritionist's advice (so you're changing things from his original advice, surely?)

See what I mean:?

Well, I've been training and using different dietary regimes for years. But things that used to work seem now not to be as effective.

I have begun seeking advice from a sports nutritionist who has also given me a few (and it's only a few) training pointers. As a result of applying what he has recommended I have obtained the results I mention.

I am doing, as closely as practical, precisely what the chap is advising.

So the changes I am seeing are the result of what he has recommended. However his recommendations have changed as the weeks have progressed.

If it helps I will address the points you raise:

I do keto - I did before but I wasn't cycling it properly because I didn't understand the best way to do so or how to adjust cycles as necessary.

I take supplements - I did before but not the right ones and not enough. I didn't know I needed to take up to 2400mg of magnesium per day, but having done so I am in a lot better place. I've discussed my challenges and aims on this board as well as others, no one ever suggested magnesium loading, no one mentioned many of the things I am now doing to good effect. So it seems that visiting an expert was worthwhile.

I am taking the nutritionist's advice, yes. I have been and remain questioning but all I will say is that most of the things he has suggested seem to have worked, some of them dramatically.

Does that answer your questions at all?

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

Cheers. I find it interesting, that's all. Trying to figure out the degree to which his advice helped vs keto. What does he think of the keto diet?

As I mentioned I was using keto anyway but my results had plateaued - I was not losing fat and was very hungry. He recommended keto based upon my requirement, but with modifications. So keto has been a constant, it's the other stuff that has changed, results have coincided with doing the other stuff so it's safe to assume that those are the things that are making the difference, along with s smarter use of keto. If that makes sense.

[Eleven]

MYOB said:

Am I the only one who is speechless at the amount of effort one goes through - with the aim to drop body fat, and remain the same size but yet, you are bulking and getting larger? And you consider this a success?

I realise this is in part an experiment for you but are you happy you are bulking out a little despite these not being your original intention?

I am going to a lot of effort yes. But then I go to a lot of effort to be fit generally. The modifications I am making are a lot less trouble than the rest of my fitness regime and in fact have led to a significant reduction in my effort in other areas. So the net effort is less.

I am gaining mass, do I think this is a success? In itself no. Some people would probably say I look better - the gains I have made are what many people crave - my limbs and chest are much bigger, my waist smaller. Given the choice between looking flabby and how I do now I'd choose now every time. However I suspect my body fat will continue to fall and I will be back to the size I was formerly but with different body composition.

It's the indirect benefits that are the real wins though. I am sleeping much better for a start and what I thought were signs of aging have abated somewhat. I was starting to get lines and darkness under my eyes, these problems have improved greatly. My neck was just beginning to look saggy, it's firmed up noticeably. The tone of my face has improved generally too - it looks better covered but at the same time slimmer. For want of a better description I look generally more healthy and better nourished.

As you say, all of this is an experiment. It's going well so far though. I am wondering whether one of the conclusions I will draw is that as one ages being slim and healthy looking is more complex. In the 90s I smoked like a chimney, stayed awake for a couple of days at a time raving, ate crap and looked great. Twenty years later it is appearing that a different strategy is required.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

What changes did he suggest then?

Faster and more structured cycling mostly.

[Eleven]

Westy Carl said:

Slight thread hijack (sorry), but can anyone explain in basic terms what a keto diet is and it's advantages / disadvantages.

Getting ones body to use fat as a principal energy source instead of carbohydrates.

The advantages are that blood sugar levels don't fluctuate as much as on a carb based diet, so fewer hunger pangs result. When using fat as energy it is easier to transition into using stored fat as energy.

The disadvantages are that the induction into ketosis can be uncomfortable, it can be complicated to continue benefiting from, it is quite expensive to do and eating out can be a challenge.

[Eleven]

Westy Carl said:

Eleven said:

Getting ones body to use fat as a principal energy source instead of carbohydrates.

The advantages are that blood sugar levels don't fluctuate as much as on a carb based diet, so fewer hunger pangs result. When using fat as energy it is easier to transition into using stored fat as energy.

The disadvantages are that the induction into ketosis can be uncomfortable, it can be complicated to continue benefiting from, it is quite expensive to do and eating out can be a challenge.

Thanks. So it's a similar theory to doing early morning fasted cardio.

Hmmmm I am not an expert on the subject. Intuitively I'd say not because it takes a few days (four for me) to enter ketosis. It requires very low carb and very high fat intake for the induction period. Just skipping breakfast isn't going to achieve that.

[Eleven]

goldblum said:

Liquid Tuna said:

goldblum said:

Westy Carl said:

Slight thread hijack (sorry), but can anyone explain in basic terms what a keto diet is and it's advantages / disadvantages.

Main disadvantage is that fat oxidation is not as efficient as carbohydrate oxidation. This means that if you exercise above 50-60% intensity (in other words your exercise becomes aerobic) you'll need carbs to perform well. If you're dieting just sitting around without doing much exercise then cutting right back on the carbs and using fat for energy does work.

That's interesting. I've been on keto for over 12 months now with good results (first 3 or 4 weeks were uncomfortable but after that it's been fine) regarding fat loss. I've also been doing Tabata and other HIIT, way beyond 50-60% intensity and found I can handle 25 to 30 mins max, then I'm wasted for a good couple of hours afterwards. Weights sessions have been fine with no noticeable energy problems.

Sure - normal weights sessions are anaerobic anyway so no matter how intense they shouldn't suffer too much on keto. Bring in anything aerobically intense and when glycogen runs out (30-40 mins) you'll be in trouble. Although carbs provide energy much quicker than fats, gram/gram fats actually provide more energy in total. Trouble is it's too slow working for any serious exercise.

That's not been my experience; quite the opposite in fact.

I find that my anaerobic performance is slightly less when using keto, but I am better able to deal with cardio and my endurance is better. For example on a 20+ mile road bike session I need to be very careful about carb input or I will blow up, on keto this isn't an issue. I have attributed this to easier access to body fat as fuel.

[Eleven]

goldblum said:

What do you mean by 'blow up'?

Suddenly run out of energy.

[Eleven]

For the sake of accuracy I should add that I have just received my diet protocol for the coming 14 days and it's not a ketogenic diet. It is essentially carb cycling. On non-training days I am eating sub-50g carbs. Carbs are quite limited - brown rice, quinoa, new pots, sweet potato.

[Eleven]

Okay, so another two weeks have passed.

The past two weeks I have been carb cycling, having 60g of rice or quinoa on training days in the evening. I have also been more precise with food weights.

Today I had gained 0.5% body fat and lost some lean mass. I weighed in at 91kg. I had gained fat on my calves and top of knee, suggesting sleep problems - quite accurately as it happens. The sleep problems are probably due to the reduction in magnesium intake, so I will be upping that again.

However despite being more lardy and less muscular I am looking progressively better. My muscles are more pumped and my complexion very good. This is the effect of carbs - keto tends to make one look flatter and less fresh. When using a keto diet I used to go back on the carbs and blow up like a balloon, that hasn't happened now because of the type and timing of the carbs. I am a bit softer, but not excessively so.

As I said in previous posts I did not set out to become more "built" but that's certainly what's happened. The effect has been that although I am still over 16%BF I don't really look it. I look in excellent shape when clothed. It's the thin layer of body fat visible when I am naked that gives the game away. I do, in my humble opinion, look a good deal better than most blokes over 40.

The coming two weeks I have got to be more accurate again with my macros / food intake. The day has also arrived, as I knew it would, when I have to cut most alcohol out my diet. Once every 5 days maximum.

Macros training day: P200 < 250g C160 < 180g F60 < 70g
Macros rest day: P200 < 250g C<50g F110g < 120g

I queried with the nutritionist why I have to work so hard to keep fat off when others apparently munch any amount of rubbish and remain slim. Genetics and legacy fat cells seems to be the answer. I have been overweight a lot in the past (though not necessarily a lot overweight) and my body is perpetually trying to regain fat.

So in summary, I am upping magnesium to 2000mg per day again. I am going to be continuing with the carb cycling (60g as far as I am aware on training days), being fastidious with my macro intake and knocking the booze on the head all but one day a week. I've not received the written recommendations, if anything is different from the above I'll update this post.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

Eleven said:

I queried with the nutritionist why I have to work so hard to keep fat off when others apparently munch any amount of rubbish and remain slim. Genetics and legacy fat cells seems to be the answer. I have been overweight a lot in the past (though not necessarily a lot overweight) and my body is perpetually trying to regain fat.

So in summary, I am upping magnesium to 2000mg per day again. I am going to be continuing with the carb cycling (60g as far as I am aware on training days), being fastidious with my macro intake and knocking the booze on the head all but one day a week. I've not received the written recommendations, if anything is different from the above I'll update this post.

Suspect the first is largely nonsense. They're probably not eating as much. Case in point, my BiL appears to be gaining weight and has to really bust his arse in the gym whilst we apparently eat a similar amount. Went round sister's for dinner last night and was served a heavier portion than I'm used to. In other words, generally-speaking, he's eating more than me each meal.

Second thing - maybe it'll work but it sounds like a lot of effort. Can you do that forever?

I have always believed fatter people eat more, end of story. But my father in law is a case in point against the argument. He is an ex pro rugby player - a winger so he's not big - and he demonstrably eats far more than me and the "wrong" stuff. Even in his 60s he is rake-like.

Also, if I am being told by a professional sports nutritionist that fat gain is not entirely about calories in vs calories out I should probably at least consider that it could be true.

Is it a lot of effort? Yes and no. In some ways it's no harder than when I have tried other regimes. I am certainly a lot happier doing this than I have been previously. I am eating loads yet my BF is trending downwards.

The booze will take some getting used to because we, as a family, tend to drink regularly (though not a lot).

I must say, though, that I am quite intrigued to see what effect alcohol removal / reduction has upon my BF. I have always wondered whether it has been playing a disproportionately large part in my tendency not to shed fat even when eating well and exercising a lot.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

Does your dad not do regular exercise? Or even stuff like gardening?

No, he is dead.

My father in law, however, does little formal exercise. Certainly not a fraction of the exercise I do.

Hoofy said:

I am aware there is an element of number of fat cells being grown during childhood so fat kids will find it tougher as adults to keep weight off as they have more fat cells but I can't see that being a major factor.

I am given to understand that the fat cells can be grown later and once they're there, they are there for good, making it more difficult to remain slim.

Hoofy said:

Re the booze, if you're drinking a lot previously then cutting out the booze will result in a dramatic drop in calorie intake!

Like I said, I wasn't drinking a lot. But the body prioritises the processing of alcohol above the burning of fat so it could, in theory, be pretty counter-productive to fat loss.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

I don't believe that's true. I did see an article on a site once stating that. I'd posted it here and there but it's not as devastating as they make out if at all.

Well the nutritionist thinks it's true, I have a suspicion it might be true and I've heard it from the medical profession before. So, I'm going to knock the booze on the head almost entirely for a few weeks and let's see what happens.

[Eleven]

grumbledoak said:

You will struggle to lose fat with regular drinking even if you are in calorie deficit.
.

I will find out soon enough but I have long suspected this to be the case.

My diet is very tightly controlled at the moment, I am training a lot (and hard) and fat loss has been slower than I anticipated. Alcohol really is the only element of my consumption that stands out as incompatible with my goals.

The nutritionist originally said that he wanted to try to keep booze in my diet, in order to make the diet as compatible with my lifestyle as possible. He seems to have come to the conclusion that it isn't possible.

If it doesn't work after a few weeks I'm going on a huge bender .

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

I remembered what it was while I was making my porridge this morning.

The article talks about how alcohol would be processed before the fat in your body ie you don't burn the fat if you drink. It was dismissed by everyone on MFP's forums as it's the same process as that which happens when you eat, say, carrots, sweet potato or celery. The issue is only relevant if you drink a lot so the body never has a chance to burn the fat. Or indeed eat a lot of healthy food.

I think I still prefer the opinion of a professional nutritionist and a doctor over second-hand discussion from an Internet chat room.