Body fat target.
Discussion
Hoofy said:
Eleven said:
I think I still prefer the opinion of a professional nutritionist and a doctor over second-hand discussion from an Internet chat room.
TBH I don't. It depends on what they say, doctor, nutritionist or keyboard warrior.ewenm said:
Eleven said:
I think I still prefer the opinion of a professional nutritionist and a doctor over second-hand discussion from an Internet chat room.
"Nutritionist" isn't a reserved term in the UK - "professionalism" may vary. You want a "Dietician" really as my registered dietician friend keeps banging on about 
Westy Carl said:
In a social setting I was introduced to a "Nutritionist", must have been as least 18st, it was all I could do not to say anything.
The "diet" you are following seems like hard work (for me), what do you plan to do after reaching your target?
It's not that hard outside of the fact that it changes every two weeks at the moment. The "diet" you are following seems like hard work (for me), what do you plan to do after reaching your target?
What do I plan to do after reaching my target? That's when the fun starts.
Chapppers said:
Eleven said:
Chapppers said:
This sounds like Poliquin biosignature?
Correct.It does seem like genuine good advice, and very clever stuff though. I think my problem would be I couldn't fit it around my lifestyle and I don't know if it could overrule my appetite!
I am not doing any of the PT stuff, just the nutrition. The gym where this is based is not my cup of tea. That said, the chap has given me a few excellent training tips too.
The end game is 11% body fat by June 2015. After that, staying there (the bigger challenge!).
Right now I feel a bit like I am training for a sporting event, which is probably good.
Will the benefits diminish if someone doesn't stick with the program? Inevitably, yes. But that is true of any nutrition and fitness regime isn't it.
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
Chapppers said:
This sounds like Poliquin biosignature?
Correct.goldblum said:
And as hormonal releases are similar with the Poliquin protocol and exercise you won't know which actually worked.
There isn't a "Poliquin protocol" as far as I am aware.I am training differently, yes. But there again it is only due to the advice of the nutritionist. So any gains are attributable to his advice. I am training no harder, in fact I am training less hard, less often and for a shorter period.
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
There isn't a "Poliquin protocol" as far as I am aware.
?Eleven said:
I am training differently, yes. But there again it is only due to the advice of the nutritionist. So any gains are attributable to his advice. I am training no harder, in fact I am training less hard, less often and for a shorter period.
So a nutritionist gave you training advice and this includes more recovery? Hormone levels will change, particularly testosterone, and this will negate any effect the Poliquin protocol might have on t levels surely? Call me sceptical... .Again - my question is how will you know whether any gains are down to the diet or the training as they both can alter hormone levels. Friendly question BTW - I'm curious why don't you find a good gym plan and stick to it, how many different regimes have you followed now?
I have tried training regimes over the years and none of them has addressed my current requirement. In fact quite specifically none of the things I used to do have recently helped me. Which is why I sought professional advice.
Q: "why don't I just find a good gym plan and stick to it"
A: Partly answered above. Also, I was fairly certain that my problems weren't exercise based, but diet based and it seems I was correct.
Also "finding a good gym plan" is not straightforward. A great deal of the "good advice" available online is of limited use. There are some PTs at our gym who probably know their stuff, most I suspect don't.
Q: How many different regimes have I followed now?
A: It depends upon how you define regime. I have been training for about 30 years during which time I have trained myriad ways. Diet wise I've pursued different ones for different requirements. That's perfectly normal. I haven't been jumping on every latest fad going if that's what you mean.
I would go on to say that the nutritionist I am seeing has barely mentioned Poliquin and not really pushed those supplements. I have bought them, but he has usually told me where else I can buy equivalent products. Furthermore none of the written stuff is Poliquin branded, it's all his own stuff.
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
There isn't a "Poliquin Protocol" as far as I am aware. There are different protocols depending upon the requirement of the client.
Protocol: The accepted or established code of procedure or behaviour in any group, organization, or situation.The protocol involves taking skin calliper measurements and adjustments in diet and exercise in order to spot reduce fat through hormone level adaptation. The procedure is client specific but clear.
I only mentioned this because chappers previously said it sounded like you were doing Poliquin Biosignature and you replied 'correct'. I understand now that you are not actually following Poliquin, but an adaptation designed by your nutritionist.
Eleven said:
Also, I was fairly certain that my problems weren't exercise based, but diet based and it seems I was correct.
What problems, if you don't mind me asking?Eleven said:
Also "finding a good gym plan" is not straightforward.
Lots of good information out there, along with the rubbish. If you've been training for as long as you say you have you must have an idea what works?
Eleven said:
I haven't been jumping on every latest fad going if that's what you mean.
It wasn't actually, I was just a bit puzzled. If, as you say, other diets/regimes have worked then why try something unproven based on Poliquin/Biosig?The approach is not to spot reduce fat, it's to use measurement of fat at prescribed locations to obtain an indication of the cause of fat accumulation.
You asked:
Q: What problems, if you don't mind me asking?
A: Trouble shifting accumulated body fat whilst apparently training very hard, eating cleanly and not over eating.
You said: "Lots of good information out there, along with the rubbish".
The problem being that everyone on the Internet is an expert. Everyone thinks they know the answers, and wants to pooh-pooh any theory that is incongruous with their own. Present company excepted obviously.
You also said: "If you've been training for as long as you say you have you must have an idea what works?"
Well I have been training for as long as that and as I mention above what used to work for me has ceased to be effective. Hence my quest for a solution. Which also answers I think your question:
"If, as you say, other diets/regimes have worked then why try something unproven based on Poliquin/Biosig?"
I would add that I didn't seek out this chap because he is a Poliquin bod, he was recommended to me by a sports physio whose opinion I trust.
That help?
goldblum said:
Thanks.
Why do you think what used to work for you became ineffective?
I am not going to address your other points because I have covered them previously and I don't think you will be any more persuaded by my explaining it to you again. Suffice it to say that you've got it round your neck.Why do you think what used to work for you became ineffective?
Why did things I did before cease to be effective? Age in a word. Until about 40 I could achieve my goals with the use of fairly blunt instruments. It doesn't work now. In the 90s I lived on Evian, fags and fresh air. I slept only about 4 nights a week and when I did eat food it usually came out a can or carton. I had very low body fat, looked great. If I did that today I'd look like I'd survived Auschwitz.
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
goldblum said:
Thanks.
Why do you think what used to work for you became ineffective?
I am not going to address your other points because I have covered them previously and I don't think you will be any more persuaded by my explaining it to you again. Suffice it to say that you've got it round your neck.Why do you think what used to work for you became ineffective?
Why did things I did before cease to be effective? Age in a word. Until about 40 I could achieve my goals with the use of fairly blunt instruments. It doesn't work now. In the 90s I lived on Evian, fags and fresh air. I slept only about 4 nights a week and when I did eat food it usually came out a can or carton. I had very low body fat, looked great. If I did that today I'd look like I'd survived Auschwitz.
As I have said my gut feeling was that my diet needed modifying and rapid changes to my body as a result of this process suggest I was right.
Running - yes I was getting a lot of calf problems. I would run for a few weeks and then get injured again. I don't fully know what caused it but my best GUESS is that I am heavy (14.5 stone as I type) and have a foot strike that is supinated but which quickly rolls to neutral (pronated without the right shoes). I THINK the combination of these two factors was stressing the calf muscle unduly and causing problems. This is both calves by the way.
The nutritionist told me to stop all cardio, but if I felt absolutely compelled to do it I should do sprints. However, I have reduced rest time between sets to 40 seconds (strictly times) when weight training and I am therefore getting quite a cardio workout as I am weight training.
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
I was cycling. He told me that cardio wasn't necessary to achieve my BF goal, diet and weights being what is required.
Fair enough. OK, now we're getting somewhere.You've tried diet and weights before, and it's worked for you. So the only difference now is the supplements. Is this correct?
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
The supps are different, but so is the diet. I haven't eaten this many carbs for years, and I am struggling to do so actually. Not hitting my carb macros at all actually.
What is the desired effect of eating a lot of carbs and what are the carbs?Apologies if I'm coming across as a bit nosey...I'm genuinely curious.
My recovery times do seem to have improved, I am pretty energetic and my shape is good. My arms and legs look chunky and my waistline seems to have shrunk. BUT I've still got a covering of wobbly stuff. I couch it in those terms because I'm unsure whether it is fat or water. It's both probably. My skin tone is way better than before and I look younger - I attribute this to carbs / better hydration.
I have been sticking to rice and quinoa. But as I mention I am struggling to hit my macros without feeling like I have over eaten.
goldblum said:
Flibble said:
GranderTransit said:
Which leads to why it isn't the same. Modern life has made us very inefficient at a cellular level. We can get away with many things and still live a long life. Biosignature looks to improve these inefficiencies. As an example, a man eats 3000kcal. F-30%, C-40%, P-30%. If you increase the efficiency with which his body is dealing with the carbs, the body will store less of it as fat and use more of it as energy within the cells.
Surely if the body was more efficient it would require less energy and thus would be able to store more as fat? The various (now illegal) diet pills such as DNP work by making cellular respiration less efficient so more energy is wasted as heat rather than being stored as fat.GranderTransit said:
Modern life has made us very inefficient at a cellular level. We can get away with many things and still live a long life.
Look, if we're having an non-argumentative discussion can we stay away from this type of spiel? I'm interested to see if there are any detected differences between the actions of exercise/and a healthy diet and its effect on hormone production and the actions of exercise + diet via Poliquin and any effect on hormone production. Just the provable bits, please. Thanks.And another two weeks have rolled around.
The past fortnight I have been as strict as possible with my macros and knocked all alcohol on the head, barring on Friday evening. I didn't drink heavily before, but the nutritionist's view was that regular alcohol wasn't helping.
My diet has been low carb on non-training days. I trained one extra day last week, bringing my total training days to 5 (consecutive).
I don't weigh or measure myself between visits to the nutritionist, but I appeared to have lost fat this time. My umbilical is flatter and my neck tighter. Given my extreme discipline over the past two weeks and apparent fat loss I was expecting great things. I was somewhat disappointed therefore when my BF had reduced from 16.9 to 16.8. That was a LOT of hard work and discipline for not a lot of benefit.
The clue however seems to be in my body weight. I have gone from 92kg to 89.5kg in 2 weeks. The theory seems to be that I am glycogen deficient and that if I wasn't my lean mass would be much more and my BF much less.
I joked with Mrs Eleven that unless I'd lost 1% body fat this time I'd be going straight down the chip shop on the way to the pub. As it turns out, many a true word spoken in jest. I've got to eat 300g of carbs before the end of the day, from pretty much whatever source, normal eating tomorrow and BF will be tested again Wednesday.
If the nutritionist's theory is correct my BF will be 1% lower or there abouts on Wednesday.
I will report back Wednesday.
The past fortnight I have been as strict as possible with my macros and knocked all alcohol on the head, barring on Friday evening. I didn't drink heavily before, but the nutritionist's view was that regular alcohol wasn't helping.
My diet has been low carb on non-training days. I trained one extra day last week, bringing my total training days to 5 (consecutive).
I don't weigh or measure myself between visits to the nutritionist, but I appeared to have lost fat this time. My umbilical is flatter and my neck tighter. Given my extreme discipline over the past two weeks and apparent fat loss I was expecting great things. I was somewhat disappointed therefore when my BF had reduced from 16.9 to 16.8. That was a LOT of hard work and discipline for not a lot of benefit.
The clue however seems to be in my body weight. I have gone from 92kg to 89.5kg in 2 weeks. The theory seems to be that I am glycogen deficient and that if I wasn't my lean mass would be much more and my BF much less.
I joked with Mrs Eleven that unless I'd lost 1% body fat this time I'd be going straight down the chip shop on the way to the pub. As it turns out, many a true word spoken in jest. I've got to eat 300g of carbs before the end of the day, from pretty much whatever source, normal eating tomorrow and BF will be tested again Wednesday.
If the nutritionist's theory is correct my BF will be 1% lower or there abouts on Wednesday.
I will report back Wednesday.
Halb said:
Westy Carl said:
Eleven said:
If the nutritionist's theory is correct my BF will be 1% lower or there abouts on Wednesday.
How on earth can you loose 1% BF in 2 days?I ate 300g of carbs between 3pm and 10pm yesterday. Everything was fair game, three cakes, 250g white rice, fruit. It wasn't as much fun as it sounds, by 10pm I was feeling like Mr Creosote and it was a lottery as to whether I would digest the carbs or vomit them out again. I am pleased to report it was the former but I feel like crap today and don't want to eat. I do however have a throat infection that probably isn't helping.
Westy Carl said:
Eleven said:
This.
I ate 300g of carbs between 3pm and 10pm yesterday. Everything was fair game, three cakes, 250g white rice, fruit. It wasn't as much fun as it sounds, by 10pm I was feeling like Mr Creosote and it was a lottery as to whether I would digest the carbs or vomit them out again. I am pleased to report it was the former but I feel like crap today and don't want to eat. I do however have a throat infection that probably isn't helping.
Sorry, I don't buy it.I ate 300g of carbs between 3pm and 10pm yesterday. Everything was fair game, three cakes, 250g white rice, fruit. It wasn't as much fun as it sounds, by 10pm I was feeling like Mr Creosote and it was a lottery as to whether I would digest the carbs or vomit them out again. I am pleased to report it was the former but I feel like crap today and don't want to eat. I do however have a throat infection that probably isn't helping.
If you are 85kg with 13kg BF you have 15.2% BF to loose 1% you need to add 6kg lean musscle. (91kg / 13kg = 14.2%)
Okay, so on Monday after a disappointing weigh-in I was advised to go home and eat 300g of carbs. I duly obliged and ate any carbs that I could find.
Yesterday was a normal training day so I ate 160g carbs and 250g protein.
This afternoon I weighed in again. 15.4% BF, down 1.4%, gained 1.5kg total weight. This suggests that I was glycogen deficient.
The most stubborn fat site is the umbilical so it has been suggested that I try yohimbine. Anyone used this?
Yesterday was a normal training day so I ate 160g carbs and 250g protein.
This afternoon I weighed in again. 15.4% BF, down 1.4%, gained 1.5kg total weight. This suggests that I was glycogen deficient.
The most stubborn fat site is the umbilical so it has been suggested that I try yohimbine. Anyone used this?
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