Body fat target.
Discussion
Westy Carl said:
Monday 89.5Kg @ 16.8% = 15Kg BF
Wednesday 91Kg @ 15.4% = 14Kg BF
Keep this up and by Sunday you'll be at 11% BF
I think the point you're making is that the numbers don't quite make sense. I THINK this is because of the different measurement locations and how they fit into the algorithm for calculating BF. I stand to be corrected by someone who knows better.Wednesday 91Kg @ 15.4% = 14Kg BF
Keep this up and by Sunday you'll be at 11% BF
Edited by Westy Carl on Wednesday 9th July 17:28
But the gist of it seems to be that carb re-feeding has increased glycogen levels, more water is stored in the muscles thus increasing lean mass.
I have to say that 15.4% makes more sense in terms of my physical appearance. I look a fair bit different from how I did at 16.9% - more than could be explained by 0.1% fat loss.
BenM77 said:
A strange thread indeed. Being told what to eat and when is not normal IMO
It's not that abnormal I don't think. Most people get nutrition advice from somewhere, be that off the Internet, books or magazines. It just happens that I am paying to receive it from a nutritionist at the moment. I seem to recall you saying you picked up a lot of tips from Attitude magazine, it's no different really except the advice I'm receiving is personalised to my needs.It remains to be seen whether or not the effort / expense is worth it. I am fairly open minded about it.
BenM77 said:
Eleven said:
BenM77 said:
A strange thread indeed. Being told what to eat and when is not normal IMO
It's not that abnormal I don't think. Most people get nutrition advice from somewhere, be that off the Internet, books or magazines. It just happens that I am paying to receive it from a nutritionist at the moment. I seem to recall you saying you picked up a lot of tips from Attitude magazine, it's no different really except the advice I'm receiving is personalised to my needs.It remains to be seen whether or not the effort / expense is worth it. I am fairly open minded about it.
It's an interesting and honest thread and I hope you get the end result you're after. Of course you will then have to try and maintain the lower bf%!
Well, the purpose of seeing this chap wasn't just about lowering body fat. His remit was, "to help me establish a diet that enabled me to control body fat whilst having the energy to train hard". I have had low body fat before but it has usually involved difficult to sustain methods. I have also found it difficult to be economically productive whilst having low body fat.
Whilst the BF% changes have to some extent been manipulation of LBM through the use of magnesium etc, I have shed fat, gained muscle tone and it hasn't been overly uncomfortable. In fact a lot of the time I have felt like I've eaten too much as opposed to insufficient.
The end of my 12 weeks with this chap comes in about 3 weeks and I will make a decision about where to go at that point. If I feel then as I do now it won't be because he doesn't know his stuff that I discontinue - I genuinely think he does - it will be because he can be a remiss and disorganised individual who doesn't put in enough effort outside of our fortnightly meetings. But that seems to be a trait of other people I have met in the PT / fitness / sports arena.
BenM77 said:
Thanks mate. I thought attitude magazine was going to be mma or boxing. A quick
Google tells me you are on the wind up
If you're looking and feeling better then that's great. but having read your posts regarding diet and supplements can you honestly say it is sustainable?
It reads more like a transformation than a life long approach IMO
Can I honestly say it is sustainable?Google tells me you are on the wind up
If you're looking and feeling better then that's great. but having read your posts regarding diet and supplements can you honestly say it is sustainable?
It reads more like a transformation than a life long approach IMO
The answer is that I don't know if it's sustainable because I am not at 11%BF so I don't know what it's going to take to achieve it and stay there (nowadays). When I was at that level or lower in the past I was generally engaging in unhealthy pastimes like skipping meals and smoking. I want to do it now whilst eating regularly and being healthy.
The difficulty as you suggest is reaching and then maintaining a target BF. I am by nature goal orientated and find it hard to stay interested when I have achieved a goal. My lifestyle also makes it very difficult to be "clean" all the time. However, it seems that I can be rather more dirty than I was being and get away with it providing I do things slightly differently.
The process has certainly taught me a lot and reminded me of a few things I'd forgotten. It has also opened my eyes to a couple of other opportunities that I will explore at a later date.
Westy Carl said:
Eleven said:
I think the point you're making is that the numbers don't quite make sense.
Yes, the numbers make no sense at all, however if you're pleased with it then happy days.I am not sure exactly how the algorithm works, but there are 11 sites tested and small changes in two locations (top of knee and calf) can have a disproportionately large effect upon the numbers. A poor night's sleep can immediately show as a gain in BF, for example.
Am I pleased with it? I am neither pleased nor displeased, it's numbers. I AM pleased that I have lost fat visibly however.
Westy Carl said:
Eleven said:
The numbers make no sense to you, they seem to make sense to him.
I am not sure exactly how the algorithm works, but there are 11 sites tested and small changes in two locations (top of knee and calf) can have a disproportionately large effect upon the numbers. A poor night's sleep can immediately show as a gain in BF, for example.
Am I pleased with it? I am neither pleased nor displeased, it's numbers. I AM pleased that I have lost fat visibly however.
Last comment I'll make;I am not sure exactly how the algorithm works, but there are 11 sites tested and small changes in two locations (top of knee and calf) can have a disproportionately large effect upon the numbers. A poor night's sleep can immediately show as a gain in BF, for example.
Am I pleased with it? I am neither pleased nor displeased, it's numbers. I AM pleased that I have lost fat visibly however.
The numbders make no sense becuase you can't loose 1Kg of BF in 2 days, also if a poor night sleep can show an increase in BF then either
the measurement is inaccurate
it's all a load of hocus pocus
A genuine reduction in BF is bascially calorie deficit (take your choice of how to achieve this)
I'd ask some more questions to fully understand what you are getting for your hard earned £££
I attribute the discrepancy above to inefficiencies in the measuring process and small changes in statistically significant measuring points, as opposed to hocus pocus, I am of course open to other (educated) explanations.
You do have a tendency, Carl, to rubbish ideas without fully understanding them yourself. I seem to recall you doing the same with ketogenic diets and then you admitted shortly afterwards that you didn't actually understand how they worked! Try to keep an open mind fella!
I went into this process with my eyes open and prepared to be disappointed. I am as cynical as the next man (unless the next man happens to be you of course). At the end I absolutely WILL give an honest opinion regarding how it went. I though people would be interested in my progress or lack thereof, hopefully you are too so please stay tuned Westy Carl.
MYOB said:
Westy Carl said:
I'm a bit old fashioned when it comes to exercise and "new ideas", 20yrs of experience have taught me it's still bascially calories in vs calories out.
At last, someone speaks sense The reason I started this process was because I was in a deficit situation and shedding fat at a glacial pace, whilst feeling like crap. I am losing fat more quickly at the moment and feeling generally fine.
The calories in vs calories out argument is correct up to a point, but there is a tendency for some people to keep chanting it with their fingers in their ears because it's all they understand. It's about as rational as chanting, "want to get muscles go to the gym".
EggsBenedict said:
On the cals in, cals out thing, this is basically the case - otherwise the first law of thermodynamics doesn't hold. However, there is a question of efficiency (so how many of the cals end up being actually processed by the body into work done by it, rather than going straight through), and there are nuances - e.g. alcohol contains 7 cals of energy per gram, but your body cannot process it raw into usuable energy, it processes it into fat first, and then it can be used.
Thanks EggsBenedictI thought I'd pick out this section for two reasons.
Whilst I appreciate that cals in vs cals out is a fundamental there are other factors to be considered (as you say). When I was younger I found that if I reduced calories for long enough I'd get the desired effect and look great. I am mid to late forties now and that strategy just made me feel and look dreadful this time round without achieving my goal. Mixing up a cycling ketogenic diet and sensible carb choices (when I am eating "conventionally") seems to be making a lot of difference in terms of how I look and feel.
Alcohol - this seems to be quite important. It was, I think, the elephant in the room. I didn't drink a lot but I drank regularly, so it was perpetually stalling my fat loss efforts. Your explanation of why alcohol is a problem is the same one the nutritionist gave.
Side note - I am still on the magnesium but the exciting bowel effects have abated largely.
Halb said:
He is quite a small bloke, I was surprised it was so much. I am guessing the density helped.
It was a great vid, I guessed him at 7%.
It puts into perspective what %BF people claim for themselves, doesn't it. Most people guess on the low side I would wager.It was a great vid, I guessed him at 7%.
When I started this process I was 19.1%, but measured in the least favourable conditions. I am now 15.4% measured in more flattering circumstances. When I was 19.1 I looked, in my opinion, fatter than that. I look lower than 15.4 now. The reason for that is that fat is not evenly distributed. I am 10 in some site measurements but 23 at the umbilical.
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
I am 10 in some site measurements but 23 at the umbilical.
Who does the caliper test on you BTW?goldblum said:
Eleven said:
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
goldblum said:
Eleven said:
I am 10 in some site measurements but 23 at the umbilical.
Who does the caliper test on you BTW?goldblum said:
Eleven said:
Not a surprise, in fact only just worthy of a mention. What is more interesting possibly is that my BF has become more focused on my umbilical, which I think is a response to magnesium (though I am not 100% sure).
Do you mean you've lost more fat at other areas than your abdomen? Isn't that to be expected?Flibble said:
You'll have a genetic disposition to retain fat in certain areas over others, the stomach area is very common in men so not really surprising.
In fact I have usually tended to store fat all over, however at present it is vanishing from everywhere but my umbilical. This is since I've been taking a lot of magnesium.Okay, so only nine days since my last weigh-in. The intervening period has been spent adhering as closely to my macros as possible. Alcohol has been verboten except for Friday afternoon / evening. I am still taking 2.5g of magnesium daily. I am training 4 days per week.
Today I was 15.1% BF at 90.5kg, down 0.3%.
I am looking leaner and 15% seems to be something of a waypoint in as much that when clothed I look slim, fit and toned. I am sure most blokes in their forties would be quite happy, but I am still aiming for 11% (entirely arbitrarily). I anticipate that at that % I will have a very good physique, though it remains to be seen whether my face and neck will tolerate it without looking scraggy.
On the advice of the nutritionist I am taking one week off from training and I'm relaxing my diet, aiming for 70% compliance. I am concerned that I will put on fat, he seems to think this isn't a given and that the break will help my training.
I will also have the occasional drink this week. It is clear to me now that alcohol is pretty much the nemesis of fat loss, even in relatively small quantities. It is since I knocked it on the head that I have started noticing proper gains.
So, I started at 19.1%, I am 15.1% today. I am almost exactly half way to my target. Early gains were easy wins like re-introducing carbs, taking magnesium and resolving sleep (did I say easy wins?). I don't think that the next 4% is going to be hugely challenging, but more so than the last.
I received a delivery of yohimbine from the US yesterday and after this week off I am going to give it a try.
I'll be having my fat measured immediately after my week off and will report back.
Today I was 15.1% BF at 90.5kg, down 0.3%.
I am looking leaner and 15% seems to be something of a waypoint in as much that when clothed I look slim, fit and toned. I am sure most blokes in their forties would be quite happy, but I am still aiming for 11% (entirely arbitrarily). I anticipate that at that % I will have a very good physique, though it remains to be seen whether my face and neck will tolerate it without looking scraggy.
On the advice of the nutritionist I am taking one week off from training and I'm relaxing my diet, aiming for 70% compliance. I am concerned that I will put on fat, he seems to think this isn't a given and that the break will help my training.
I will also have the occasional drink this week. It is clear to me now that alcohol is pretty much the nemesis of fat loss, even in relatively small quantities. It is since I knocked it on the head that I have started noticing proper gains.
So, I started at 19.1%, I am 15.1% today. I am almost exactly half way to my target. Early gains were easy wins like re-introducing carbs, taking magnesium and resolving sleep (did I say easy wins?). I don't think that the next 4% is going to be hugely challenging, but more so than the last.
I received a delivery of yohimbine from the US yesterday and after this week off I am going to give it a try.
I'll be having my fat measured immediately after my week off and will report back.
Digger said:
Interesting stuff. A couple of questions.
What sort of training are you doing at the moment and will you be adapting and altering it to help achieve 11% body fat. . . . or will that be left to nutrition only to achieve?
Also did you notice much of a difference when you started taking magnesium? I'm guessing you're taking it just before bedtime?
I have dropped all cardio, I just do weights. But I only take 40 seconds between sets. I do split routines which broadly are upper and lower body each trained twice a week, with some overlap in exercises, some only once a week. I don't plan to deviate from this course outside of possibly modifying how I organise the splits. I don't plan on re-introducing cardio for now. So, to answer your question weight training and nutrition only for now.What sort of training are you doing at the moment and will you be adapting and altering it to help achieve 11% body fat. . . . or will that be left to nutrition only to achieve?
Also did you notice much of a difference when you started taking magnesium? I'm guessing you're taking it just before bedtime?
Magnesium: I spread it throughout the day with more immediately before bed. I noticed immediately having to use the toilet a lot and very swiftly, this has now reduced I am pleased to say. In terms of benefits I noticed an immediate gain in visible muscle mass and SEEMINGLY how fat was distributed. That level of magnesium intake is supposed to be short-term, but I have carried on a little longer to help with sleep. On the subject of which my sleep was initially excellent as a result of the magnesium but the effect has begun to fade.
Halb said:
Makes muscle and bone grow.
Sorry I meant side effects but I have looked it up now I have access to a PC.There was a chap at our gym who was over 50 and looked late 30s. I suspect he was using something because he had red spots across his shoulders. I presumed it was steroids, but might he have been using HGH?
Okay, I took 12 days off training and strict nutritional intake. I spent time with the family, doing family type things. This involved pretty much no exercise, alcohol every day (though not massive volumes), ice creams every day and a so-so diet, albeit that I ate mainly white meat and fish. Today I am 16.8% BF again.
To look at me you'd probably not notice the difference. The sites that have increased are on my legs mostly, these areas relating to liver function. Not that I've been drinking heavily and causing cirrhosis or anything like that, it's simply that these sites show tell-tale signs that I've slipped from the path of righteousness and that my liver is processing differently.
Today was also the last day of the 12 weeks with the nutritionist chap. I have decided not to continue seeing him regularly because I think I have learned enough to go it alone for the next 12 weeks and we are agreed that the basics of a plan are in place. I have diarised to see him in October.
Going forwards I will, for 10 days now, go low-carb high fat. Then I will revert to carbs on training days with a re-feed day as and when I feel I need it. Alcohol will remain off the menu 6 days per week.
Once I am back in fat burning mode I intend to try yohimbine, tomorrow however I will be taking L-carnitine in the hope of persuading my body to more swiftly begin to consume fat. I usually feel like crap the first couple of days after cutting out carbs, I am told this may help.
I started this process for two main reasons, firstly to lower my BF% to 11% and I think I now have the tools to do that by this time next year. I could do it much quicker but I want to do it without feeling cranky, I want it to be sustainable and I don't want to cause myself too many aesthetic challenges.
The second reason, and the main reason actually, was that I was eating very little, not losing fat and finding myself weak when exercising. I am now able to eat loads more, feel strong and put more effort into exercise whilst still losing body fat.
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