Discussion
DervVW said:
little frustrated - two fails on OHP and now I am to go back to 35kg, but it said about going up in 1kg increments, my gym doesnt have these, gonna be tough.
First falter at Deadlift... got to 90kg which is more than 10kg of my actual weight so I'm not suprised, but still anyoing when teamed with the OHP issue...
Pretty sure I'm about to hit the same - managed OHP yesterday at 37.5, but it was seriously hard (was resting between 2-3 mins between sets, but even the first set was hard). I realize I'm setting myself up for failure, but I can't see me putting up 40kgs on Friday. Squats starting to get taxing, the rest is still easy (I've always had a strong back, so can't see DL being a problem till at least 110).First falter at Deadlift... got to 90kg which is more than 10kg of my actual weight so I'm not suprised, but still anyoing when teamed with the OHP issue...
This is where SL 5x5 falls down for me. Like pretty much everyone, I too found these plateaus very difficult to beat. The programme as written (and has been VERY successful) requires you to deload and take a fresh run-up. The problem though, is it didn't work first time - why should it work a second time?
A definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Einstein.
I now take the view that when I reach a sticking point, rather than deload I continue until I can get it. It goes something like this:
If I failed the example above 37.5kgs 5,5,5,4,3 the next workout I go for 3 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) then 4 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) until I get to 5 x 5's again. Rather than going backwards, I'm increasing the load overall each time so increasing my capacity/strength. Probably nonsense and I can't really justify it any more than say it works for me.
A definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Einstein.
I now take the view that when I reach a sticking point, rather than deload I continue until I can get it. It goes something like this:
If I failed the example above 37.5kgs 5,5,5,4,3 the next workout I go for 3 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) then 4 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) until I get to 5 x 5's again. Rather than going backwards, I'm increasing the load overall each time so increasing my capacity/strength. Probably nonsense and I can't really justify it any more than say it works for me.
LordGrover said:
This is where SL 5x5 falls down for me. Like pretty much everyone, I too found these plateaus very difficult to beat. The programme as written (and has been VERY successful) requires you to deload and take a fresh run-up. The problem though, is it didn't work first time - why should it work a second time?
A definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Einstein.
I now take the view that when I reach a sticking point, rather than deload I continue until I can get it. It goes something like this:
If I failed the example above 37.5kgs 5,5,5,4,3 the next workout I go for 3 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) then 4 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) until I get to 5 x 5's again. Rather than going backwards, I'm increasing the load overall each time so increasing my capacity/strength. Probably nonsense and I can't really justify it any more than say it works for me.
I do more or less the same. I de-load only very slightly (-5kg max for barbell press) and then go for at least 8 reps per set instead of 5, and work my way back up. I find that this works very well and do it for all main compound exercises.A definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Einstein.
I now take the view that when I reach a sticking point, rather than deload I continue until I can get it. It goes something like this:
If I failed the example above 37.5kgs 5,5,5,4,3 the next workout I go for 3 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) then 4 x 6's (or 7's or 8's) until I get to 5 x 5's again. Rather than going backwards, I'm increasing the load overall each time so increasing my capacity/strength. Probably nonsense and I can't really justify it any more than say it works for me.
TheGreatSoprendo said:
DervVW said:
little frustrated - two fails on OHP and now I am to go back to 35kg, but it said about going up in 1kg increments, my gym doesnt have these, gonna be tough.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Olympic-weight-plat...
Yes.. well what others have said going back and doing the same thing might be a bad idea, same thing over and over. My guess was that perhaps going back whilst others impoved might give you more chance to grow.
I might try the higher reps on a lower weight to build strength. It is worth a try though.
hajaba123 said:
5 weeks in, 120kg squat, 80 bench 80 row 120kg deadlift and 45kg press
Starting to get a bit tricky now...
I know it's against the program, however I've been finishing off with 3x5 high pulls and 3x10 of hand release press ups and TRX rows
Loving it still!
That's good going for 5 weeks progress! I've just started the 5x5 after a long time away from lifting and enjoying it so far at the end of week 2.Starting to get a bit tricky now...
I know it's against the program, however I've been finishing off with 3x5 high pulls and 3x10 of hand release press ups and TRX rows
Loving it still!
R8Steve said:
hajaba123 said:
5 weeks in, 120kg squat, 80 bench 80 row 120kg deadlift and 45kg press
Starting to get a bit tricky now...
I know it's against the program, however I've been finishing off with 3x5 high pulls and 3x10 of hand release press ups and TRX rows
Loving it still!
That's good going for 5 weeks progress! I've just started the 5x5 after a long time away from lifting and enjoying it so far at the end of week 2.Starting to get a bit tricky now...
I know it's against the program, however I've been finishing off with 3x5 high pulls and 3x10 of hand release press ups and TRX rows
Loving it still!
I think I am about 6-7 weeks in and not that heavy yet.
DervVW said:
That is good going! Did you skip the start or go everyday?
I think I am about 6-7 weeks in and not that heavy yet.
I skipped the start, I've got a good few years of lifting in me so started a bit higher than just the bar.I think I am about 6-7 weeks in and not that heavy yet.
Enjoying the forced nature of it all so far.
App updated this morning and seems to keep crashing/ not have my old workouts, anyone else found this? Iphone
I've just started 5x5. I swim a lot and had been doing a lot of light weights and endurance work with rubber tubbing.
I want a strength phase to build some power as I have a couple of swim races in the late summer which have strong currents so need to increase strength.
I didn't start with empty bars as I was lifting more than that for 12 reps already. My coach pointed out I wasn't going deep enough on my squats. Focused on that and its amazing the difference. I had really bad DOMS first few days even with light weights (45Kg)
Thing I like about the 5x5 is it is in and out no messing about. 30 mins and you are done. Can do this before my morning swim and finish off with stroke specific and core work in the evening.
I want a strength phase to build some power as I have a couple of swim races in the late summer which have strong currents so need to increase strength.
I didn't start with empty bars as I was lifting more than that for 12 reps already. My coach pointed out I wasn't going deep enough on my squats. Focused on that and its amazing the difference. I had really bad DOMS first few days even with light weights (45Kg)
Thing I like about the 5x5 is it is in and out no messing about. 30 mins and you are done. Can do this before my morning swim and finish off with stroke specific and core work in the evening.
hajaba123 said:
App updated this morning and seems to keep crashing/ not have my old workouts, anyone else found this? Iphone
Yes, was not amused....so gone back to my book.End of week 2 and Squat 85, Dead 110, OHP 45, Row 60 and bench 65.....I had been training this programme late summer/ early autumn last year so picked up where felt comfortable, possibly slightly too high or some exercises.
Dead and OHP feel like I am close to the limits so need to play with weight/ reps to keep progressing but squat is feeling strong still.
Actually changed my gym routine to a Sun/Tues and Thurs and going 6.30am before work which seems to be effective so far for not finding excuses to skip training.
Riskins said:
hajaba123 said:
App updated this morning and seems to keep crashing/ not have my old workouts, anyone else found this? Iphone
Yes, was not amused....so gone back to my book.End of week 2 and Squat 85, Dead 110, OHP 45, Row 60 and bench 65.....I had been training this programme late summer/ early autumn last year so picked up where felt comfortable, possibly slightly too high or some exercises.
Dead and OHP feel like I am close to the limits so need to play with weight/ reps to keep progressing but squat is feeling strong still.
Actually changed my gym routine to a Sun/Tues and Thurs and going 6.30am before work which seems to be effective so far for not finding excuses to skip training.
I've been doing an adapted 5x5 program since February. Thanks to unavoidable work commitments (fixed rota) and poor facilities at work, progress has been necessarily slower than ideal. I've completed a grand total of 22 workouts, which puts me about 6-7 weeks in roughly. I'm enjoying the linear progression, and happily, despite achieving fairly low initial numbers in one or two of the lifts (squat and OHP in particular) I've yet to hit a true plateau.
Bodyweight: 76kg
Height 178cm
5x5 -
Squat: 87.5kg
Deadlift: 132.5kg for 1x5
Bench: 80kg
Power clean: 62.5kg
Barbell row: 80kg
OHP: 47.5kg
Weighted pullups: 20kg
Weighted dips: 22.5kg
For those who are stalling: SL 5x5 is a good program, but it's very simplistic and one size fits all in its approach. 'If you stall, no problem, deload and go again'. Human physiology is rarely this easy. SL 5x5 positively invites stalling - it's inevitable - via a massively proscribed recovery time between sets. Mehdi's Rx - deloading - misses the physiological point, because it supplies an endurance-biased adaptation. Eventually this will (probably) increase the involved muscles' maximal force capability, but in a rather long-winded and roundabout way. There's a huge time sacrifice in that progress is stalled for as long as it takes, not to mention the de-motivation which occurs from repeatedly not hitting one's targets.
There is no black magic here - the muscles are either getting stronger, or they're not. You test and develop this strength each session, so long as the weight on the bar keeps increasing. This increase can be very slow, but be assured - lifting the same as last week will NOT make you significantly stronger. Eventually endurance-biased training will have a small impact on maximal force production, but the issue can be put to bed with the question 'in the absence of injury, why *choose* to progress more slowly?'
Limiting oneself to a 3min rest is ultimately self-defeating as it means that at some point when training peak strength one will fail, and simply due to fatigue. In three minutes, the body is not able to regenerate muscular fuel quickly enough to allow peak-effort strength to be effectively trained... So failure occurs before sufficient stress has been applied to the muscles to force a strength adaptation.
It's better by far to recognise that you're training peak strength, as opposed to muscular endurance. The training session must supply sufficient stress to force the muscle to become *stronger*. One or two sets of 5 doesn't do it; 3-5 sets on the other hand is about right. (There's actually some decent research supporting this rep / set range as optimal for strength development, in addition to anecdotal evidence from strength and powerlifting coaches down the years.)
If you're strong enough to lift the thing for 5 reps, you're almost certainly strong enough to do that for four more sets. The key to achieving this is rest. If you fail after a 5-10min rest between sets, fair enough: sufficient time has passed for muscular ATP to be more or less fully replenished. In this instance a (very) slight de-loading back to around or just above the previous level is probably justified, to even things out and allow progress. But if you keep thrashing yourself with a teeny rest period you have to understand that you aren't training absolute strength.
...this could explain why Mehdi's numbers are relatively low for someone who's been training as long as he has.
Anecdotally, on the few occasions I've missed a set, it's only ever because I took a shorter rest. I now make the effort to rest for at least 4min between sets, and will go to 6 if I'm feeling particularly fatigued. I can see the need for these rests to increase as my numbers go up, as I'm starting to 'feel it' more now things are getting heavier. If you're worried about cooling down you can put a top on, or do some dynamic mobility drills in preparation for the next exercise. If you're worried about hogging the rack at a public gym, offer others to work in...
Like some posters have mentioned, Starting Strength is an excellent resource.
Edited for a bit more clarity.
Luke
Bodyweight: 76kg
Height 178cm
5x5 -
Squat: 87.5kg
Deadlift: 132.5kg for 1x5
Bench: 80kg
Power clean: 62.5kg
Barbell row: 80kg
OHP: 47.5kg
Weighted pullups: 20kg
Weighted dips: 22.5kg
For those who are stalling: SL 5x5 is a good program, but it's very simplistic and one size fits all in its approach. 'If you stall, no problem, deload and go again'. Human physiology is rarely this easy. SL 5x5 positively invites stalling - it's inevitable - via a massively proscribed recovery time between sets. Mehdi's Rx - deloading - misses the physiological point, because it supplies an endurance-biased adaptation. Eventually this will (probably) increase the involved muscles' maximal force capability, but in a rather long-winded and roundabout way. There's a huge time sacrifice in that progress is stalled for as long as it takes, not to mention the de-motivation which occurs from repeatedly not hitting one's targets.
There is no black magic here - the muscles are either getting stronger, or they're not. You test and develop this strength each session, so long as the weight on the bar keeps increasing. This increase can be very slow, but be assured - lifting the same as last week will NOT make you significantly stronger. Eventually endurance-biased training will have a small impact on maximal force production, but the issue can be put to bed with the question 'in the absence of injury, why *choose* to progress more slowly?'
Limiting oneself to a 3min rest is ultimately self-defeating as it means that at some point when training peak strength one will fail, and simply due to fatigue. In three minutes, the body is not able to regenerate muscular fuel quickly enough to allow peak-effort strength to be effectively trained... So failure occurs before sufficient stress has been applied to the muscles to force a strength adaptation.
It's better by far to recognise that you're training peak strength, as opposed to muscular endurance. The training session must supply sufficient stress to force the muscle to become *stronger*. One or two sets of 5 doesn't do it; 3-5 sets on the other hand is about right. (There's actually some decent research supporting this rep / set range as optimal for strength development, in addition to anecdotal evidence from strength and powerlifting coaches down the years.)
If you're strong enough to lift the thing for 5 reps, you're almost certainly strong enough to do that for four more sets. The key to achieving this is rest. If you fail after a 5-10min rest between sets, fair enough: sufficient time has passed for muscular ATP to be more or less fully replenished. In this instance a (very) slight de-loading back to around or just above the previous level is probably justified, to even things out and allow progress. But if you keep thrashing yourself with a teeny rest period you have to understand that you aren't training absolute strength.
...this could explain why Mehdi's numbers are relatively low for someone who's been training as long as he has.
Anecdotally, on the few occasions I've missed a set, it's only ever because I took a shorter rest. I now make the effort to rest for at least 4min between sets, and will go to 6 if I'm feeling particularly fatigued. I can see the need for these rests to increase as my numbers go up, as I'm starting to 'feel it' more now things are getting heavier. If you're worried about cooling down you can put a top on, or do some dynamic mobility drills in preparation for the next exercise. If you're worried about hogging the rack at a public gym, offer others to work in...
Like some posters have mentioned, Starting Strength is an excellent resource.
Edited for a bit more clarity.
Luke
Edited by MurderousCrow on Tuesday 2nd June 06:36
Edited by MurderousCrow on Tuesday 2nd June 10:01
Otispunkmeyer said:
Can you use box squats for 5x5? Seen a few people doing them and looked up why someone might do them. Something about breaking the posterior chain, making you use your hips more? Not sure. Are they harder than normal squats?
I'd avoid them- similar to squats, but inferior. Something to add in at an advanced level, but even then, not really a necessity IME.Lost: I hope you find it useful, would you mind replying after using a longer rest for a few sessions and seeing how it works? 9 months in means you are probably at the point where relatively easy novice gains are becoming more elusive, so you may need to change other variables to ensure continued progress (you might look into buying some quality 'change plates' of your own if you haven't already). But it's worth trying this one first, as it seems to be a major cause of stalling out.
Otis: FWIW my coach (ex-GB powerlifting squad) swears by box squats. They emphasise the correct engagement of the posterior chain, and encourage good technique. Caveat - you should probably be totally happy with your low-bar back squat technique before adding this ancillary movement into your routine. 2 points to consider: firstly don't use your full 5x5 weight, take 10-20% off at least. Secondly, once your technique is established, vary box height slightly to ensure the movement is trained through the full range of motion. Clearly, the initial height must place the apex of the hip joint below the top of the knee joint for a true 'below parallel' squat.
Maybe another point or two: do this inside the rack with safeties at the correct height, or you have lots of opportunities to mess yourself up by getting pinched betwixt bar and box. A couple of pieces of plywood for your feet placed either side of the box effectively lowers it, by the way.
A good guide from Louie Simmons here (cached page):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cac...
ETA: I agree with Didely that they are an advanced exercise, hence the caveat. They're very worthwhile if you struggle to get 'out of the hole' i.e. come up from proper depth, as they emphasise recruitment of the posterior chain by eliminating the hamstring stretch-shortening reflex in the bottom of the regular low-bar back squat. I wouldn't say they're inferior per se, but in the context of substituting the regular squat for them I would fully agree. They're an ancillary exercise.
Luke
Otis: FWIW my coach (ex-GB powerlifting squad) swears by box squats. They emphasise the correct engagement of the posterior chain, and encourage good technique. Caveat - you should probably be totally happy with your low-bar back squat technique before adding this ancillary movement into your routine. 2 points to consider: firstly don't use your full 5x5 weight, take 10-20% off at least. Secondly, once your technique is established, vary box height slightly to ensure the movement is trained through the full range of motion. Clearly, the initial height must place the apex of the hip joint below the top of the knee joint for a true 'below parallel' squat.
Maybe another point or two: do this inside the rack with safeties at the correct height, or you have lots of opportunities to mess yourself up by getting pinched betwixt bar and box. A couple of pieces of plywood for your feet placed either side of the box effectively lowers it, by the way.
A good guide from Louie Simmons here (cached page):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cac...
ETA: I agree with Didely that they are an advanced exercise, hence the caveat. They're very worthwhile if you struggle to get 'out of the hole' i.e. come up from proper depth, as they emphasise recruitment of the posterior chain by eliminating the hamstring stretch-shortening reflex in the bottom of the regular low-bar back squat. I wouldn't say they're inferior per se, but in the context of substituting the regular squat for them I would fully agree. They're an ancillary exercise.
Luke
Edited by MurderousCrow on Tuesday 2nd June 11:56
MurderousCrow said:
Otis: FWIW my coach (ex-GB powerlifting squad) swears by box squats. They emphasise the correct engagement of the posterior chain, and encourage good technique. Caveat - you should probably be totally happy with your low-bar back squat technique before adding this ancillary movement into your routine. 2 points to consider: firstly don't use your full 5x5 weight, take 10-20% off at least. Secondly, once your technique is established, vary box height slightly to ensure the movement is trained through the full range of motion. Clearly, the initial height must place the apex of the hip joint below the top of the knee joint for a true 'below parallel' squat.
Maybe another point or two: do this inside the rack with safeties at the correct height, or you have lots of opportunities to mess yourself up by getting pinched betwixt bar and box. A couple of pieces of plywood for your feet placed either side of the box effectively lowers it, by the way.
A good guide from Louie Simmons here (cached page):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cac...
Box squats are aimed towards powerlifters who use wide stance and supportive equipment (such as Louie Simmons)- if this isn't your ultimate aim, then they're probably best avoided. Useful for a tool at advance levels and for a bit of variation, but for athleticism and strength- good old squatting does the job.Maybe another point or two: do this inside the rack with safeties at the correct height, or you have lots of opportunities to mess yourself up by getting pinched betwixt bar and box. A couple of pieces of plywood for your feet placed either side of the box effectively lowers it, by the way.
A good guide from Louie Simmons here (cached page):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cac...
To add- the main proponent(s) of box squatting is Louie Simmons/Westside barbell- look at how they squat, then look at how an decent Olympic weight lifter squats (Klokov, Ilya Ilyin etc)
Edited by didelydoo on Tuesday 2nd June 11:56
didelydoo said:
Box squats are aimed towards powerlifters who use wide stance and supportive equipment (such as Louie Simmons)- if this isn't your ultimate aim, then they're probably best avoided. Useful for a tool at advance levels and for a bit of variation, but for athleticism and strength- good old squatting does the job.
See edit I'd also add that the box squat isn't purely for geared lifters - any intermediate to advanced trainee can benefit from them. From a personal point of view: I'm happy with my regular squat form, and have started using box squats in addition to my regular squat once a week or so. I feel stronger at depth and I continue to add weight to the bar, where a few weeks back I was consistently somewhat shaky coming up out of the hole. The movement is actually very similar to a correctly performed kettlebell movement, with shins perpendicular to the floor. The benefits aren't going to translate equally to everyone, as everyone is different. Even so they're a good specific assistance exercise, and shouldn't be dismissed purely on the basis that Louie coaches geared lifters. It's worth reading the article.
MurderousCrow said:
I'd also add that the box squat isn't purely for geared lifters - any intermediate to advanced trainee can benefit from them. From a personal point of view: I'm happy with my regular squat form, and have started using box squats in addition to my regular squat once a week or so. I feel stronger at depth and I continue to add weight to the bar, where a few weeks back I was consistently somewhat shaky coming up out of the hole. The movement is actually very similar to a correctly performed kettlebell movement, with shins perpendicular to the floor. The benefits aren't going to translate equally to everyone, as everyone is different. Even so they're a good specific assistance exercise, and shouldn't be dismissed purely on the basis that Louie coaches geared lifters. It's worth reading the article.
Perhaps they can be helpful, but normal squats (high and low bar), pause squats and front squats all have a much better carry over IME. I managed to squat 300kg by front & back squatting alone. Still, knowledge is power- so it's worth reading, digesting and trying everything yourself to see what works for you.
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