5x5

[Flook]

ORD said:

I agre with Chris. Your numbers aren't that bad or out of proportion. I weigh a little bit more than you, but am a similar build. My bench for 5 x 5 is not hugely dissimilar to my squat (probably about 90kg bench and 115kg squat). Squats take a lot out of you once you get into a decent number of reps. Deadlifts do the same - mine would be around 130-135kg for 5 x 5.

I would stick with 5 x 5 for a little longer and then move to something with a bit less volume & frequency on the lower body. I'm a big fan of 5/3/1 (in its various forms).

This is a helpful set of comparisons & advice - thank you

[BelfastBlack]

I haven't done 5x5 for a while so the below are approximates but for a comparison I'm a similar height and weight to flook and I'm on:
Squat: 92.5/95
Bench: 62.5
DL: 95-100
BOR: 50
OHP: 40

Its obvious that my chest is weaker than others and my legs seem a bit stronger. I'm just happy that I'm no longer the smallest guy in my gym (not because I've grown, someone else recently joined).

[ORD]

I would be amazed if you're the weakest, as long as those squats are legit! Very few men can squat decent weight with good form.

[BelfastBlack]

The gym is a shed at the bottom of the rugby club car park so the regular gym goers are the dedicated rugby guys and me. They've all been training since they were 16 so they've all had a 10 year head start.

[lost in espace]

Back at it again after 5 years on/off, 6' and 87kgs. What is interesting is that when you have a 6 month break, the muscle soon tones and firms. Back at 102kgs squats, its the chin ups that are the hard one. I used to chin up with 10kgs of extra weight, now I can't quite get to 5x5.

Enjoying it though, it takes a bit of mental toughness to get off the sofa and into the cage. I read on T-Nation that you shouldn't rest or exercise for more than 2 days in a row, so am trying to get 4 sessions in a week now, overtraining might be an issue though shortly.

[ORD]

That sounds like something Thibeau would say. Not really advice for someone without chemical help.

[I-A]

Just thought I'd contribute too..

Height: 5ft 8 inches
Weight: 78kg
Age: 29

Squat: 97.5kg
Deadlift: 117.5kg
OHP: 45kg
Bench Press: 75kg
BOR: 65kg (did get up to 82.5kg but wasn't impressed with my form so dropped it down to 60kg)

Not sure if my stats are good/bad but this is probably the strongest I have ever been all round.

Thanks

[LordGrover]

ORD said:

I agre with Chris. Your numbers aren't that bad or out of proportion. I weigh a little bit more than you, but am a similar build. My bench for 5 x 5 is not hugely dissimilar to my squat (probably about 90kg bench and 115kg squat). Squats take a lot out of you once you get into a decent number of reps. Deadlifts do the same - mine would be around 130-135kg for 5 x 5.

I would stick with 5 x 5 for a little longer and then move to something with a bit less volume & frequency on the lower body. I'm a big fan of 5/3/1 (in its various forms).

5x5 deads? That's a lot of reps, especially when you start lifting heavy.

[ORD]

LordGrover said:

5x5 deads? That's a lot of reps, especially when you start lifting heavy.

Yep. I don't do 5 x 5, but that would be my max if I did.

I do 7 x 3 sometimes but at a lower weight.

[PapaJohns]

I'm about to start the 5x5 stronglifts program using the 5x5 stronglifts app.

Hopefully I can keep good form and get the weight right

[I-A]

What are the the signals to move on from 5x5? What would you move on to?

I don't think I have maxed out 5x5 by any means, but just want to see what the powerfully built directors here in the Health Matters section think.

[Desiato]

I-A said:

What are the the signals to move on from 5x5? What would you move on to?

I don't think I have maxed out 5x5 by any means, but just want to see what the powerfully built directors here in the Health Matters section think.

I think a lot of that will depend on what you are trying to achieve, your age and how realistic your goals are etc.
I switch in and out of 5x5 to do Kettlebells and other compound movements as I am not trying to be too powerfully built! As I am suture you know The results from 5x5 also vary depending on nutrition intake,

It's a good routine for strength and fat loss.

[ORD]

I-A said:

What are the the signals to move on from 5x5? What would you move on to?

I don't think I have maxed out 5x5 by any means, but just want to see what the powerfully built directors here in the Health Matters section think.

As others have said, it depends on your goals. If you are still adding weight every week, you've not taken all you can in terms of strength and hypertrophy. Almost everyone moves too quickly away from a beginner programme.

That said, if you cannot get enough sleep and food to recover from the workouts (especially squats), you'll have to move onto a lower volume programme. Your age and the weight on the bar will largely dictate that decision. Older (i.e. not youngsters) lifters will struggle with 3 squatting sessions per week once they get strong enough to annihilate their legs and core with the squats.

I think I am probably borderline for 5 x 5 (34, intermediate strength on most lifts).

Remember that it's a hypertrophy programme - you're missing the point if you aren't trying to pack on muscle. You'll probably also lose some fat (IF you started out fat), but it's not a programme designed for fat loss - you need to eat lots to recover between sessions.

[V8mate]

ORD said:

I-A said:

What are the the signals to move on from 5x5? What would you move on to?

I don't think I have maxed out 5x5 by any means, but just want to see what the powerfully built directors here in the Health Matters section think.

As others have said, it depends on your goals. If you are still adding weight every week, you've not taken all you can in terms of strength and hypertrophy. Almost everyone moves too quickly away from a beginner programme.

That said, if you cannot get enough sleep and food to recover from the workouts (especially squats), you'll have to move onto a lower volume programme. Your age and the weight on the bar will largely dictate that decision. Older (i.e. not youngsters) lifters will struggle with 3 squatting sessions per week once they get strong enough to annihilate their legs and core with the squats.

I think I am probably borderline for 5 x 5 (34, intermediate strength on most lifts).

Remember that it's a hypertrophy programme - you're missing the point if you aren't trying to pack on muscle. You'll probably also lose some fat (IF you started out fat), but it's not a programme designed for fat loss - you need to eat lots to recover between sessions.

Wut?

5x5 isn't a hypertrophy approach at all. It's a simple and effective strength programme.

[chris watton]

I-A said:

What are the the signals to move on from 5x5? What would you move on to?

I don't think I have maxed out 5x5 by any means, but just want to see what the powerfully built directors here in the Health Matters section think.

If you haven't maxed out on your lifts then it's better to stick with it. The exercised you do on this program are the best for overall strength and muscle development.

When you do max out, try a slightly different 5x5 - I do an old Reg Park routine now and again. Instead of 5x5, you do 2 warm up sets and 3 working sets, and swap out OH Press with Clean and Press (which can be more challenging). You can mix up your Rows, so many variants, Pendlay, standard BOR, T-Bar, one arm DB Row etc. It never hurts to try and include wide grip pull ups, too. If Squats are getting too much 3 times per week, alternate between those and Leg Press.

So a routine may look something like:

Squats (Leg Press Wednesdays) - 5x5 (with the first two being warm up sets)
Bench Press - 5x5 (If these get too much, like Squats, try Incline Bench on Wednesdays in the 8-12 rep range, as you have to use less weight)
Clean and Press - 5x5
BOR variant - 5x5
Deadlift - 1x5 (and 5x1 when it gets heavy - do only once per week - when you don't do these, perhaps substitute with seated pulley rows in the 8-12 rep range)
Pull Ups (Which also help decompress your spine after the heavy lifts)

Edited by chris watton on Wednesday 12th April 09:02

[V8mate]

A lot of responses to the 'what next...?' question. The thing is, with more training programmes than any of us know what to do with, there's no clear answer.

The questioner clearly needs inspiration, so I'd suggest booking in with a well respected local PT for three months, and let them ignite your next lifting/training spark. As often as you can afford; but at least weekly. The two of you can explore your goals/aspirations, your diet, and how best you can exploit your body type.

Training alone, without clear goals and a proper route to achieving them will at best result in few gains and, at worst, potential for minor injury. Which I can attest as being annoying as hell.

[PapaJohns]

I'm 35, haven't been near a gym in 3/4 years, I weigh 103kg and I'm 5'11"and started this 5x5 on Monday, couldn't bring myself to start on 20kg squats so added 20kg, And to be fair Iv never really squated that much,I trained Monday and have work B tonight, my thighs are still sore from Monday but the test will be latter on tonight when I try and weight to my squat

Week 1
Squat- 40kg
Bench- 40kg
Row-30kg

iv been generally using the rowing machine since November to trim some timber, so I'm all my wisdom I jumped on the rower after what seemed an easy workout, thinking my legs wouldn't still be jelly if I hadn't . looking forward to getting stuck into this

[didelydoo]

I think perhaps a logical step up from 5x5 is 531. There a few versions tailored for strength/hypertrophy/mix so easy to find something that floats your boat.

However, 5x5 can take you a long way. Stick with 5x5 for the main compounds, do an assistance to the main lift, throw in some low rep explosive stuff, and higher rep isolation stuff and you've got all the bases covered. Add in some conditioning/cardio if you fancy too.

Change the 5x5 to 3x8 or 3x3 if you want, doesn't really matter TBH. The main thing is to work hard at what you do, what ever rep range that may be.

For me, I prefer intensity & frequency over volume, but that's not something to look at until you're fairly up to speed strength wise.

[ORD]

V8mate said:

ORD said:

I-A said:

What are the the signals to move on from 5x5? What would you move on to?

I don't think I have maxed out 5x5 by any means, but just want to see what the powerfully built directors here in the Health Matters section think.

As others have said, it depends on your goals. If you are still adding weight every week, you've not taken all you can in terms of strength and hypertrophy. Almost everyone moves too quickly away from a beginner programme.

That said, if you cannot get enough sleep and food to recover from the workouts (especially squats), you'll have to move onto a lower volume programme. Your age and the weight on the bar will largely dictate that decision. Older (i.e. not youngsters) lifters will struggle with 3 squatting sessions per week once they get strong enough to annihilate their legs and core with the squats.

I think I am probably borderline for 5 x 5 (34, intermediate strength on most lifts).

Remember that it's a hypertrophy programme - you're missing the point if you aren't trying to pack on muscle. You'll probably also lose some fat (IF you started out fat), but it's not a programme designed for fat loss - you need to eat lots to recover between sessions.

Wut?

5x5 isn't a hypertrophy approach at all. It's a simple and effective strength programme.

Nope. It is a hypertrophy programme. It never uses less than 5 reps, which is the bottom end of the hypertrophy range (not 8 reps as most PTs would say). If you are keeping rest periods short (60-90 seconds), you'll not be in a position to test your max strength; and strength gains independent of hypertrophy require the use of heavier weights with 2-3 reps at 85-90+% of 1RM. 5 x 5 takes you nowhere near your 1RM (not least because nobody can do 5 sets at their 5RM).

You will build strength on 5 x 5, sure, but a hell of a lot of that strength will come from muscle growth once you get past the early beginner stage. Right at the start, the strength gains will be from CNS adaptations, but after that it is mostly down to muscle growth.

If you are doing 5 x 5 and not building muscle, you wont get stronger for very long. Rippetoe is all about packing on muscle - he likes his trainees to bulk quite hard and be relaxed about body fat.

Even most 5/3/1 programmes rely on hypertrophy for most of the strength gains. You dont touch weights above 90% much at all on 5/3/1 (unless you go for a programme with lots of joker sets). To be honest, I think most young lifters could stay on 5 x 5 for a long time.

Chris' programme looks like a good one to move to. I personally wouldnt do the leg presses (because they are murder on your spine and there are equally good quad exercises that are safer and also work your core a bit - various single leg squats, for example).

[chris watton]

ORD said:

Chris' programme looks like a good one to move to. I personally wouldnt do the leg presses (because they are murder on your spine and there are equally good quad exercises that are safer and also work your core a bit - various single leg squats, for example).

I find the opposite, I do (incline) Leg press to give my spine a rest, yet can still give the legs a heavy workout. I have always seen it as a pretty safe exercise (There is a video of a guy on Facebook showing his leg snap when trying with too much weight, though, that's horrible to watch... lol)