5x5

[V8mate]

chris watton said:

ORD said:

Chris' programme looks like a good one to move to. I personally wouldnt do the leg presses (because they are murder on your spine and there are equally good quad exercises that are safer and also work your core a bit - various single leg squats, for example).

I find the opposite, I do (incline) Leg press to give my spine a rest, yet can still give the legs a heavy workout. I have always seen it as a pretty safe exercise (There is a video of a guy on Facebook showing his leg snap when trying with too much weight, though, that's horrible to watch... lol)

I start leg day with the leg press now as my shoulders and back are the limiting factor for squats, not my legs. I'll then follow the leg press with squats just to burn things right out.

I will likely hit the 500kg mark in the next couple of weeks on the leg press, yet don't really like to squat much more than 120kg after it because my shoulders are 'wonky' (due to lifting injuries) and my back has never been that strong.

[ORD]

chris watton said:

I find the opposite, I do (incline) Leg press to give my spine a rest, yet can still give the legs a heavy workout. I have always seen it as a pretty safe exercise (There is a video of a guy on Facebook showing his leg snap when trying with too much weight, though, that's horrible to watch... lol)

Safety and ease do not correlate. It is not a physically taxing exercise, that's for sure (because you are sitting down!), but it puts the lumbar spine in a pretty horrible position. Nobody would squat with their lower back in a deeply rounded position, but it is almost inevitable on the leg press. It doesnt tax the muscles around the spine, but that is precisely the problem - the forces are being absorbed in large part by soft tissue other than muscle.

It is a shame because it really does allow you to go very heavy without much fatigue so is great for muscle building. But most of us have plenty strong quads compared to our posterior chain and core.

[chris watton]

ORD said:

Safety and ease do not correlate. It is not a physically taxing exercise, that's for sure (because you are sitting down!), but it puts the lumbar spine in a pretty horrible position. Nobody would squat with their lower back in a deeply rounded position, but it is almost inevitable on the leg press. It doesnt tax the muscles around the spine, but that is precisely the problem - the forces are being absorbed in large part by soft tissue other than muscle.

It is a shame because it really does allow you to go very heavy without much fatigue so is great for muscle building. But most of us have plenty strong quads compared to our posterior chain and core.

I have to respectfully disagree. Everything I have read and my own experience suggests it is much safer for the lower back than Squats - as long as the back is resting on the pad. This is the exercise that is seemingly always recommended if people have problems with their back, I cannot see how it puts the lumbar region in a precarious position.

[ORD]

chris watton said:

I have to respectfully disagree. Everything I have read and my own experience suggests it is much safer for the lower back than Squats - as long as the back is resting on the pad. This is the exercise that is seemingly always recommended if people have problems with their back, I cannot see how it puts the lumbar region in a precarious position.

Quoted for the reference to McGill, mostly (but I agree with all of it):
/://tonygentilcore.com/2011/09/my-case-against-the-leg-press

[ORD]

chris watton said:

I have to respectfully disagree. Everything I have read and my own experience suggests it is much safer for the lower back than Squats - as long as the back is resting on the pad. This is the exercise that is seemingly always recommended if people have problems with their back, I cannot see how it puts the lumbar region in a precarious position.

If you maintain a neutral lower back, it may be safer. But I have never seen anyone maintain anything like a neutral lumbar position on a leg press - everyone lets the back relax and flatten against the pad.

[V8mate]

ORD said:

chris watton said:

I have to respectfully disagree. Everything I have read and my own experience suggests it is much safer for the lower back than Squats - as long as the back is resting on the pad. This is the exercise that is seemingly always recommended if people have problems with their back, I cannot see how it puts the lumbar region in a precarious position.

If you maintain a neutral lower back, it may be safer. But I have never seen anyone maintain anything like a neutral lumbar position on a leg press - everyone lets the back relax and flatten against the pad.

Clearly not lifting anything which requires a bit of effort then. With the head against the pad, chest up and core locked, the lower back automatically lifts off the seat allowing the glutes to fully engage.

[ORD]

V8mate said:

Clearly not lifting anything which requires a bit of effort then. With the head against the pad, chest up and core locked, the lower back automatically lifts off the seat allowing the glutes to fully engage.

Off the seat? So with the lumbar region flexed? You would never squat with the lower back rounded forward because its a herniated disc waiting to happen.

See https://www.t-nation.com/training/4-most-debilitating-exercises

Dr Rusin this time - a guy who certainly seems to me to know his stuff.

[didelydoo]

More folk get injured squatting than leg pressing, so I'd class it as safer. If you keep range of motion to the knee joint, then there's no involvement of the spine. Leg press is a great addition IMO.

edit to add, I've hurt my self squatting, but never leg pressing, even when doing it stupid heavy.

[ORD]

Everyone has a different appetite for risk.

For me, leg presses fail the risk / reward test because they allow you to lift absolutely huge loads from a position that is at least a bit suspect as regards spinal health.

[didelydoo]

ORD said:

Everyone has a different appetite for risk.

For me, leg presses fail the risk / reward test because they allow you to lift absolutely huge loads from a position that is at least a bit suspect as regards spinal health.

I like to live on the edge

[ORD]

didelydoo said:

More folk get injured squatting than leg pressing, so I'd class it as safer. If you keep range of motion to the knee joint, then there's no involvement of the spine. Leg press is a great addition IMO.

A fair point - I guess it is ultimately about maintaining tension and controlling the range of motion in each case.

[V8mate]

ORD said:

V8mate said:

Clearly not lifting anything which requires a bit of effort then. With the head against the pad, chest up and core locked, the lower back automatically lifts off the seat allowing the glutes to fully engage.

Off the seat? So with the lumbar region flexed? You would never squat with the lower back rounded forward because its a herniated disc waiting to happen.

See https://www.t-nation.com/training/4-most-debilitating-exercises

Dr Rusin this time - a guy who certainly seems to me to know his stuff.

It's not rounded forward; it's rounded back, exactly as it would be when you poke your bum out to squat.

[ORD]

V8mate said:

It's not rounded forward; it's rounded back, exactly as it would be when you poke your bum out to squat.

Oh, I see your point now. Makes it a bit like the bottom position in a box squat.

[ORD]

didelydoo said:

I like to live on the edge

Half of your lifts make me feel a bit scared just watching them. The 100kg push presses make me think back to hitting myself in the head with a much lower weight.

[didelydoo]

ORD said:

A fair point - I guess it is ultimately about maintaining tension and controlling the range of motion in each case.

Yeah, I think a lot of people go beyond the range they're capable of/flexible enough for, and compensate by rounding at the lower back, this would cause issues. Likewise with squats I guess.

[chris watton]

ORD said:

A fair point - I guess it is ultimately about maintaining tension and controlling the range of motion in each case.

I would say that this is true for all heavy exercises, failure to do so can lead to injury. I know that I have to give 100% concentration/focus and maintain tension throughout the rep range when going heavy. If I don't there's a fair chance I'd fail the rep. I would think that failure to create a strong block in your core region when Squatting could have worse results than Leg Press, as there's a good chance you'll move forward and round the back, which could lead to catastrophic back injuries.

[ajcj]

PapaJohns said:

I'm 35, haven't been near a gym in 3/4 years, I weigh 103kg and I'm 5'11"and started this 5x5 on Monday, couldn't bring myself to start on 20kg squats so added 20kg, And to be fair Iv never really squated that much,I trained Monday and have work B tonight, my thighs are still sore from Monday but the test will be latter on tonight when I try and weight to my squat

Week 1
Squat- 40kg
Bench- 40kg
Row-30kg

iv been generally using the rowing machine since November to trim some timber, so I'm all my wisdom I jumped on the rower after what seemed an easy workout, thinking my legs wouldn't still be jelly if I hadn't . looking forward to getting stuck into this

Good start. Just to give you some comparable data, I started with empty bars in August last year - 20kg across the board - after a long time off. Over Christmas, and in February I have taken chunks of time off due to holidays / illness, and unloaded the bar each time I returned, re-starting 20kg-30kg below where I had got to before the break. On average I get into the gym twice a week, so my squat has progressed faster than anything else. This week I'm doing (all 5x5 except the deadlift 1 x 5):

Squat - 95kg
Deadlift - 125kg
OHP - 50kg
Bench - 60kg
BOR - 60kg

I'm lagging on the upper body stuff because I've probably been too cautious de-loading the bar when I come back from breaks, but also because I enjoy the squat and dead work, and see good progress on them. I tend to believe that if you get strong on squats and deads it will help your other lifts, not so much the other way round. Also, my gym is full of Johnny Bicep types (in their 'Beast Mode' vests and baggy joggers hiding legs like hairy pencils) who spend three sessions a week curling in the squat rack (grrrrrr......) but couldn't deadlift a bag of crisps, so it's also some kind of demonstration protest against fake strength and fake tan....and breathe.

Anyway, the point is, you've made a great start, and if you keep going like the man says you will definitely see strength gains. You're also 15 years younger than me, so you will probably progress faster. Building on the points earlier in this thread, don't be too quick to think 'what's next?' - I can see me getting past a year with basic 5x5 before I need to move on, and then it will be one exercise at a time.

[TameRacingDriver]

Hi guys,

Not long since I set my own home gym up with the aim of doing a very similar program to this. I'm doing 2x5 and then 1x8 reps of each of the compound movements.

My workouts look like this:

Workout A: Squats, Bench, Barbell Row

Workout B: Deadlift (1x5), Pull ups, Shoulder Press

Only problem is, I'm not bad with most of the exercises but I can't do pull ups. Been trying negatives but frankly I'm not sure if this doing me any good. Is there an alternative I should be using, and should I stick with it and keep trying with the pull ups? I used to be able to do about 80kg on the lat pulldown at the gym, but I'm over 15 stone and of course when you're on a machine you're not swinging around either! I'd welcome any suggestions

[chris watton]

TameRacingDriver said:

Hi guys,

Not long since I set my own home gym up with the aim of doing a very similar program to this. I'm doing 2x5 and then 1x8 reps of each of the compound movements.

My workouts look like this:

Workout A: Squats, Bench, Barbell Row

Workout B: Deadlift (1x5), Pull ups, Shoulder Press

Only problem is, I'm not bad with most of the exercises but I can't do pull ups. Been trying negatives but frankly I'm not sure if this doing me any good. Is there an alternative I should be using, and should I stick with it and keep trying with the pull ups? I used to be able to do about 80kg on the lat pulldown at the gym, but I'm over 15 stone and of course when you're on a machine you're not swinging around either! I'd welcome any suggestions

For the pull Ups, buy a resistance band. Attach it to one of the pull up bars and put your knee in the other end. This should help a lot until you can do them unassisted. This is how I started and, with perseverance, it can pay off. I was doing all kinds of Lat Pulldown variations before this, but it wasn't until I decided to try wide grip pull ups instead that my back started to grow noticeably wider.

[TameRacingDriver]

chris watton said:

For the pull Ups, buy a resistance band. Attach it to one of the pull up bars and put your knee in the other end. This should help a lot until you can do them unassisted. This is how I started and, with perseverance, it can pay off. I was doing all kinds of Lat Pulldown variations before this, but it wasn't until I decided to try wide grip pull ups instead that my back started to grow noticeably wider.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'm doing the pullups in a squat rack rather than on a pull up bar so I don't know if that would work?

I had thought of maybe trying this, OK its not 5 reps but it gets me started
http://twentypullups.com/intitial-test/