5x5

[ORD]

Can anyone offer any insight into this plan? I am thinking about doing a month or two on the Texas Method, but I think the Wednesday workout (recovery) does not offer much bang for its buck, so I would propose to do the Monday (volume) and Friday (intensity) workouts but do something else on the Wednesday (e.g. loaded carries; power training; conditioning). I would still be getting in some lifting and recovery work.

I know everyone says "stick to the programme", but I really dont see the point of turning up to the gym to go through the motions.

[Desiato]

TameRacingDriver said:

Only problem is, I'm not bad with most of the exercises but I can't do pull ups. Been trying negatives but frankly I'm not sure if this doing me any good. Is there an alternative I should be using, and should I stick with it and keep trying with the pull ups? I used to be able to do about 80kg on the lat pulldown at the gym, but I'm over 15 stone and of course when you're on a machine you're not swinging around either! I'd welcome any suggestions

I found a mix of trying to do one or two pull ups between sets of other exercises really helped, plus using a box so that I could hold the bars and use my legs to help launch towards the pull up and then control the lowering. This is also quite a good aerobic workout. Varying the grip width and between pull ups and chins can help. Overall I think it is perseverance though.

[ORD]

TameRacingDriver said:

Hi guys,

Not long since I set my own home gym up with the aim of doing a very similar program to this. I'm doing 2x5 and then 1x8 reps of each of the compound movements.

My workouts look like this:

Workout A: Squats, Bench, Barbell Row

Workout B: Deadlift (1x5), Pull ups, Shoulder Press

Only problem is, I'm not bad with most of the exercises but I can't do pull ups. Been trying negatives but frankly I'm not sure if this doing me any good. Is there an alternative I should be using, and should I stick with it and keep trying with the pull ups? I used to be able to do about 80kg on the lat pulldown at the gym, but I'm over 15 stone and of course when you're on a machine you're not swinging around either! I'd welcome any suggestions

(1) Lose weight. Extremely few heavy men are good at pull ups.

(2) Grease the groove - do 1 or 2 fewer pull ups than your maximum every few hours or at least every 10 mins or so at the gym. It's a complex motor skill and requires a lot of muscular coordination.

(3) Stengthen your close. It's much easier to pull up a rigid body than a flailing one (assuming you are not kipping or otherwise cheating).

[TameRacingDriver]

Thanks fellas, will have to persevere. It would be good to be able to do these.

[V8mate]

Desiato's advice^ was spot on: find a small platform (Reebok step type thing), jump up and then lower yourself down for each movement.

It's a tried and tested, and pretty rapid way to develop the necessary strength to do pull-ups.

[ORD]

V8mate said:

Desiato's advice^ was spot on: find a small platform (Reebok step type thing), jump up and then lower yourself down for each movement.

It's a tried and tested, and pretty rapid way to develop the necessary strength to do pull-ups.

I agree, but one point: eccentrics will build the strength but not necessarily the coordination, so I would mix it up with the resistance band technique (which allows you to learn the movement with a smaller load). It does change the resistance curve, but that is probably not a huge problem unless you have strong arms and will tend to rely on those too much.

Another suggestion - Google "scapular pull ups" and try doing some of those to drill the first couple of inches of movement.

[Heathwood]

After a knee injury followed by a lower back strain, I decided to regroup, take a step back and have a crack at 5 x 5. I took the initial weights back to around 50% of capability for set of 5.

I've been doing the programme for a few weeks now. Squats have inevitably increased in weight and are getting challenging but it's almost certainly military press that I'm going to fail on first. Numbers as of today are as follows:

BW - 70kg

Squat - 90kg
Bench - 65kg (plenty more to come)
Overhead press - 47.5kg
B/O row - 57.5kg (easy)
Deads - 107.5kg (easy)

Is it unusual to find yourself approaching failure on 1 or 2 exercises whilst finding other exercises no real challenge? Perhaps I got my initial weights wrong.

[chris watton]

Heathwood said:

After a knee injury followed by a lower back strain, I decided to regroup, take a step back and have a crack at 5 x 5. I took the initial weights back to around 50% of capability for set of 5.

I've been doing the programme for a few weeks now. Squats have inevitably increased in weight and are getting challenging but it's almost certainly military press that I'm going to fail on first. Numbers as of today are as follows:

BW - 70kg

Squat - 90kg
Bench - 65kg (plenty more to come)
Overhead press - 47.5kg
B/O row - 57.5kg (easy)
Deads - 107.5kg (easy)

Is it unusual to find yourself approaching failure on 1 or 2 exercises whilst finding other exercises no real challenge? Perhaps I got my initial weights wrong.

I bought a set of fractal weights when I was doing the OH Press, so I could add only 1kg, instead of the normal 2.5kg at each session.

[Heathwood]

chris watton said:

Heathwood said:

After a knee injury followed by a lower back strain, I decided to regroup, take a step back and have a crack at 5 x 5. I took the initial weights back to around 50% of capability for set of 5.

I've been doing the programme for a few weeks now. Squats have inevitably increased in weight and are getting challenging but it's almost certainly military press that I'm going to fail on first. Numbers as of today are as follows:

BW - 70kg

Squat - 90kg
Bench - 65kg (plenty more to come)
Overhead press - 47.5kg
B/O row - 57.5kg (easy)
Deads - 107.5kg (easy)

Is it unusual to find yourself approaching failure on 1 or 2 exercises whilst finding other exercises no real challenge? Perhaps I got my initial weights wrong.

I bought a set of fractal weights when I was doing the OH Press, so I could add only 1kg, instead of the normal 2.5kg at each session.

Thanks Chris, I do have some 0.5kg weights. I'll try to resist using them for now but there will come a time when it might be inevitable (next week probably )

[TameRacingDriver]

I'd agree with the smaller weights. If you're anything like me, its baby steps and consistency to get strong. Ideally each lift shouldn't really feel any harder than the previous session so if that means little baby weights so be it.

[ORD]

2.5kg is a big jump for OHP. You'll not manage that every week once you are lifting any real weight.

Remember that OHP is a very weak lift relative to others. You'll see target figures like this given for the big lifts:
Bench: 1.25-1.5 x bodyweight
Deadlifts: 2-2.5 x BW
Squat: 1.75-2.25 x BW
OHP: 0.9-1 x BW

I would think that a BW OHP is roughly as hard as a 1.5 x BW bench press for a lot of men. So you'll be looking at 105kg on the bench by the time you are strong enough for a 70kg OHP.

I may just be a wimp, but I also find the OHP harder at a given % of 1 RM than the other lifts. I often do 5 x 5 at 75 of my training max (so about 70% of my 1 RM) and it is easy as pie for bench and deads but reasonably tough for OHP.

[V8mate]

ORD said:

You'll see target figures like this given for the big lifts:
Bench: 1.25-1.5 x bodyweight
Deadlifts: 2-2.5 x BW
Squat: 1.75-2.25 x BW
OHP: 0.9-1 x BW

WTF?

Target figures for who? They're certainly not likely targets for most of us where weights are our chosen route to staying fit.

[ajcj]

V8mate said:

ORD said:

You'll see target figures like this given for the big lifts:
Bench: 1.25-1.5 x bodyweight
Deadlifts: 2-2.5 x BW
Squat: 1.75-2.25 x BW
OHP: 0.9-1 x BW

WTF?

Target figures for who? They're certainly not likely targets for most of us where weights are our chosen route to staying fit.

With or without chemical assistance? Those look like elite-level targets for 'unassisted' lifters after many years of very consistent and dedicated training rather than something most of us could aspire to, especially those with jobs, families, and a fondness for red wine.

I have seen three guys in my gym who might be squatting 2 x body weight. Two of those three are gym staff and personal trainers. I wouldn't say for certain that they are 100% clean, either. I would think that if you are male, employed, and have some interests in life other than the gym, getting to bodyweight on bench, 1.5x on squat and dead, and 0.75x on OHP will make you stronger than 99% of the general population, and based on what I see, stronger than 95% of the gym-going population too.

[V8mate]

ajcj said:

V8mate said:

ORD said:

You'll see target figures like this given for the big lifts:
Bench: 1.25-1.5 x bodyweight
Deadlifts: 2-2.5 x BW
Squat: 1.75-2.25 x BW
OHP: 0.9-1 x BW

WTF?

Target figures for who? They're certainly not likely targets for most of us where weights are our chosen route to staying fit.

With or without chemical assistance? Those look like elite-level targets for 'unassisted' lifters after many years of very consistent and dedicated training rather than something most of us could aspire to, especially those with jobs, families, and a fondness for red wine.

I have seen three guys in my gym who might be squatting 2 x body weight. Two of those three are gym staff and personal trainers. I wouldn't say for certain that they are 100% clean, either. I would think that if you are male, employed, and have some interests in life other than the gym, getting to bodyweight on bench, 1.5x on squat and dead, and 0.75x on OHP will make you stronger than 99% of the general population, and based on what I see, stronger than 95% of the gym-going population too.

I think your suggestions are spot on. If anything I might even tone down the OHP - with absolute strict form - to 0.6 as being a significant achievement for most people who have worked reasonably hard at weight training as a hobby.

[ORD]

ajcj said:

V8mate said:

ORD said:

You'll see target figures like this given for the big lifts:
Bench: 1.25-1.5 x bodyweight
Deadlifts: 2-2.5 x BW
Squat: 1.75-2.25 x BW
OHP: 0.9-1 x BW

WTF?

Target figures for who? They're certainly not likely targets for most of us where weights are our chosen route to staying fit.

With or without chemical assistance? Those look like elite-level targets for 'unassisted' lifters after many years of very consistent and dedicated training rather than something most of us could aspire to, especially those with jobs, families, and a fondness for red wine.

I have seen three guys in my gym who might be squatting 2 x body weight. Two of those three are gym staff and personal trainers. I wouldn't say for certain that they are 100% clean, either. I would think that if you are male, employed, and have some interests in life other than the gym, getting to bodyweight on bench, 1.5x on squat and dead, and 0.75x on OHP will make you stronger than 99% of the general population, and based on what I see, stronger than 95% of the gym-going population too.

Those are 1RM figures, not figures for 5 x 5 - they would be extremely impressive for 5 x 5!

[TameRacingDriver]

Desiato said:

I found a mix of trying to do one or two pull ups between sets of other exercises really helped, plus using a box so that I could hold the bars and use my legs to help launch towards the pull up and then control the lowering. This is also quite a good aerobic workout. Varying the grip width and between pull ups and chins can help. Overall I think it is perseverance though.

I've took your advice about this. I can just about do 1 pull up between exercises if I'm not too tired so I'll stick with it.

[stargazer30]

ORD said:

ajcj said:

V8mate said:

ORD said:

You'll see target figures like this given for the big lifts:
Bench: 1.25-1.5 x bodyweight
Deadlifts: 2-2.5 x BW
Squat: 1.75-2.25 x BW
OHP: 0.9-1 x BW

WTF?

Target figures for who? They're certainly not likely targets for most of us where weights are our chosen route to staying fit.

With or without chemical assistance? Those look like elite-level targets for 'unassisted' lifters after many years of very consistent and dedicated training rather than something most of us could aspire to, especially those with jobs, families, and a fondness for red wine.

I have seen three guys in my gym who might be squatting 2 x body weight. Two of those three are gym staff and personal trainers. I wouldn't say for certain that they are 100% clean, either. I would think that if you are male, employed, and have some interests in life other than the gym, getting to bodyweight on bench, 1.5x on squat and dead, and 0.75x on OHP will make you stronger than 99% of the general population, and based on what I see, stronger than 95% of the gym-going population too.

Those are 1RM figures, not figures for 5 x 5 - they would be extremely impressive for 5 x 5!

Agreed. To add some context. I've been doing 5x5 reps on the major lifts for 18 months now. My body weight is about 80kg and my OHP is only 45kg. It was pain, torture, a million failures and deloads to get it that far too. Yet I can bench 75kg for 5 reps no probs.

[ORD]

stargazer30 said:

Agreed. To add some context. I've been doing 5x5 reps on the major lifts for 18 months now. My body weight is about 80kg and my OHP is only 45kg. It was pain, torture, a million failures and deloads to get it that far too. Yet I can bench 75kg for 5 reps no probs.

I think the 5 x 5 programme is a bit aggressive on OHP, to be honest - too much of an increase each week, even if you start very low. People are generally very bad at OHP.

45kg is not bad at all for 5 x 5. I can lift 60kg for one set of 5 but would never be able to repeat that for 4 more sets.

[chris watton]

For OH Press, it may be better to add 1kg each week rather than every workout. In 10 weeks, that's still 10kg, which is quite an increase for this particular exercise.

And/or change it up to Clean and Press, you should see more gains as it's more exhausting.

[TameRacingDriver]

How much should I be increasing deadlifts / squats by each time? The accepted wisdom of these programs seems to be 2 or 2.5 kg each time but that seems like quite a lot to me? I'm managing OK at the moment but for how long remains to be seen.