Rowing machine or an Elliptical/Cross trainer

[Hoofy]

TheBALDpuma said:

Hoofy said:

I've always wondered about this - when you deadlift, they always talk about good form even if just using the bar. But most people who use a rowing machine don't think about form yet you hardly hear of anyone injuring themselves. What's your thoughts?

You'd always coach good form, but the load through the spine is relatively low so injury rosi would be much lower than DLs.

I guess so.

[_bryan_]

Just to add my 2p...without getting into a debate thanks.

Running (and I mean running not jogging) >Rowing.....then much further down the line...>cross trainer.

There is a reason all the unfit people in the gym like to go on the cross trainer, it's easy.

[Mojooo]

My gym has cross trainers and a variation on a cross trainer which is more like a glider and better mimmicks running - it can get your heart rate up very quick

http://www.precor.com/en-gb/commercial/products/ca...

will easily be 5k i suspect.

[MurderousCrow]

All exercise is good! So long as it’s of sufficient duration and intensity to bring about the physiological changes you want, and you’re not getting injured, it’s doing its job. My main reason for recommending the rower is the scope of different workouts it can provide; as I was saying it can really grow with your fitness, hence Olympians still being able to get a meaningful and challenging workout on the thing. The changes you want to make, can change over time. That’s all.

I strongly feel that the erg has the potential to provide a much tougher workout than the elliptical; I’ve trained in various exercise modes for well over 25yrs, and I’ve never found anything quite as devastating as a 2k best effort on the rower. Even maximal-effort running for a similar time (2.4k test), hard bouts of heavy bag work, nothing comes close. After a hard run or KB session I might puke (or just want to), but give me 5min and I’m ok. After a 2k erg race, I’m more or less useless for quite a long time. I think I might have an idea as to why. When racing on the erg, because the stroke involves so much musculature (unlike running and cycling for example), the effects of fatigue will be whole-body: there are very few parts of the body which are not contributing maximally. As such, there’s relatively little ‘spare’ musculature to buffer the decreased pH. This idea seems to be supported in the literature.

I’m not an engineer  But I suspect that the difference between the cross-trainer and most other modes of cardio is that of inertia. In the other exercise modes, the potential for acceleration / force development is theoretically infinite. Whereas with the elliptical, there is a significant rotating mass that has to be got moving, and once moving provides a degree of efficiency to the action. This mass doesn’t slow appreciably at any point in the cycle even when force is no longer applied – we’ve all experienced the wait at the end of an elliptical session for the thing to slow down so we can safely get off. With the inertia to be overcome, I’m imagining it’s not possible to accelerate it as instantaneously as say a pedal stroke, an erg stroke or a running stride. Still means you’re putting work in, it’s you that got that mass moving, and it’s you keeping it moving against resistance. But (if I’m right), the elliptical is perhaps more inclined to providing a steady-state workout, by levelling out the little peaks and troughs in muscular force development, and preventing instantaneously massive increases in applied effort. Can any engineering types confirm this?

[Hoofy]

_bryan_ said:

Just to add my 2p...without getting into a debate thanks.

Running (and I mean running not jogging) >Rowing.....then much further down the line...>cross trainer.

There is a reason all the unfit people in the gym like to go on the cross trainer, it's easy.

> sitting on the couch.

[throt]

MurderousCrow said:

All exercise is good! So long as it’s of sufficient duration and intensity to bring about the physiological changes you want.

End of an elliptical session for the thing to slow down so we can safely get off.

The 2 points above.

First one is very true and I strongly agree.

Second, the CT will stop very quick in high intensity setting 25. In 25 you can feel your legs, glutes, arms and chest getting a workout.
On the lighter intensity settings, yes, the CT will coast for a period via its own weight of momentum. Similar to running then dropping down to a walk, in a way.

[TheBALDpuma]

I tried to walk away but I keep getting drawn back in. ..


Literally my last comment. ..

A C2 IS a much better piece of training kit than a cross trainer. Cross trainers are no good for proper hard physical exertion. Yes they will do their bit but they ate no in the same league as C2 or actually running.

For all those doggidly backing a cross trainer all you are achieving is to demonstrate a fairly significant lack of understanding about training and the entire subject area.

I'm out

[MurderousCrow]

TheBALDpuma said:

I tried to walk away but I keep getting drawn back in. ..

This is what happened to me on the squat thread

[GT03ROB]

Hoofy said:

_bryan_ said:

Just to add my 2p...without getting into a debate thanks.

Running (and I mean running not jogging) >Rowing.....then much further down the line...>cross trainer.

There is a reason all the unfit people in the gym like to go on the cross trainer, it's easy.

> sitting on the couch.

...which is surely the point. Anything is better than nothing. The fact that international athletes get more out of a rowing machine than a cross trainer is a total irrelevance to Mr Average Couch Potato. You have to like whatever you are doing or you just won't do it. So if you like to use a cross trainer & don't like a rower, then the cross trainer is best as you might stick at it.

[Hoofy]

GT03ROB said:

Hoofy said:

_bryan_ said:

Just to add my 2p...without getting into a debate thanks.

Running (and I mean running not jogging) >Rowing.....then much further down the line...>cross trainer.

There is a reason all the unfit people in the gym like to go on the cross trainer, it's easy.

> sitting on the couch.

...which is surely the point. Anything is better than nothing. The fact that international athletes get more out of a rowing machine than a cross trainer is a total irrelevance to Mr Average Couch Potato. You have to like whatever you are doing or you just won't do it. So if you like to use a cross trainer & don't like a rower, then the cross trainer is best as you might stick at it.

Abso-bloody-lutely!

[throt]

TheBALDpuma said:

I tried to walk away but I keep getting drawn back in. ..

For all those doggidly backing a cross trainer all you are achieving is to demonstrate a fairly significant lack of understanding about training and the entire subject area.

I'm out

You'll be back,,, maybe

So your a PT, buddy.

Okay, so if an individual comes to you with health issues and is overweight by quite a margin you will keep them well away form a CT..?..

I am not having a go at you but I feel I know what I am talking about. I have been a runner, 10k PB 35mins 41secs ( age 32 years and it was after a days work in hot weather too ). Now all I have ( for the past 17 year ) is a Life Fitness CT, a cheap Argos weight bench and a set of girlie weight dumbbells ( 10kg ). Guess what though, I am in the best shape of my life and I am a very masculine - 30" waist , 40" chest,,, with a six pack. Granted my diet is good but I have no Concept as of yet.

Sorry guys, I am not bragging, I just will not except that the CT is a waste of space..

[MurderousCrow]

GT03ROB said:

...which is surely the point. Anything is better than nothing. The fact that international athletes get more out of a rowing machine than a cross trainer is a total irrelevance to Mr Average Couch Potato. You have to like whatever you are doing or you just won't do it. So if you like to use a cross trainer & don't like a rower, then the cross trainer is best as you might stick at it.

It's an excellent point and it goes right to the heart of the individual's goals. You're quite right, it has to be 'stickable with', and the elliptical is probably very good in this regard: you can stick some music or the TV on and just zone out. If you're happy just 'staying active' or developing & maintaining basic general fitness this is fine. But if you want to train using a structured plan for meaningful development you'll find other activities are necessary to enable a full range of workout types to take place.

OP, whatever you decide to do, bear in mind that cardio is not the be-all and end-all of exercise; strength and flexibility are really important. You mentioned yoga - this is perfect for stability, proprioception and flexibility development. Add in a set of kettlebells for some strength work (swings, cleans, snatches, get-ups) and you'll have a very solid basis for developing all-round fitness.

[TheBALDpuma]

throt said:

You'll be back,,, maybe

So your a PT, buddy.

Okay, so if an individual comes to you with health issues and is overweight by quite a margin you will keep them well away form a CT..?..

I am not having a go at you but I feel I know what I am talking about. I have been a runner, 10k PB 35mins 41secs ( age 32 years and it was after a days work in hot weather too ). Now all I have ( for the past 17 year ) is a Life Fitness CT, a cheap Argos weight bench and a set of girlie weight dumbbells ( 10kg ). Guess what though, I am in the best shape of my life and I am a very masculine - 30" waist , 40" chest,,, with a six pack. Granted my diet is good but I have no Concept as of yet.

Sorry guys, I am not bragging, I just will not except that the CT is a waste of space..

Ahhhh I'm back to answer your specific questions. ..

If we're doing credentials... I don't do as much personal training these days, I'm a Strength and confronting Coach (BSC sports science, MSC strength and Conditioning, UKSCA accredited coach) who works with everyone from sprinters and rowers, to divers (GB athletes) and triathletes (Olympic gold medal holder amongst others).

I would use a cross trainer in a few circumstances, I.e. If they were incapable of much else. They really aren't very good!

[throt]

TheBALDpuma said:

throt said:

You'll be back,,, maybe

So your a PT, buddy.

Okay, so if an individual comes to you with health issues and is overweight by quite a margin you will keep them well away form a CT..?..

I am not having a go at you but I feel I know what I am talking about. I have been a runner, 10k PB 35mins 41secs ( age 32 years and it was after a days work in hot weather too ). Now all I have ( for the past 17 year ) is a Life Fitness CT, a cheap Argos weight bench and a set of girlie weight dumbbells ( 10kg ). Guess what though, I am in the best shape of my life and I am a very masculine - 30" waist , 40" chest,,, with a six pack. Granted my diet is good but I have no Concept as of yet.

Sorry guys, I am not bragging, I just will not except that the CT is a waste of space..

Ahhhh I'm back to answer your specific questions. ..

If we're doing credentials... I don't do as much personal training these days, I'm a Strength and confronting Coach (BSC sports science, MSC strength and Conditioning, UKSCA accredited coach) who works with everyone from sprinters and rowers, to divers (GB athletes) and triathletes (Olympic gold medal holder amongst others).

I would use a cross trainer in a few circumstances, I.e. If they were incapable of much else. They really aren't very good!

You should have stated the above earlier to make it clearer, fits in now. So a CT is not used for your line of training, hence, the reason you stated, " they really aren't very good ".

I would like to run 10k now, just to see the time it takes me, be interesting.. A big percentage of hard training and good achievements comes from whats going on in ones head mentally too.

[rhinochopig]

throt said:

TheBALDpuma said:

throt said:

You'll be back,,, maybe

So your a PT, buddy.

Okay, so if an individual comes to you with health issues and is overweight by quite a margin you will keep them well away form a CT..?..

I am not having a go at you but I feel I know what I am talking about. I have been a runner, 10k PB 35mins 41secs ( age 32 years and it was after a days work in hot weather too ). Now all I have ( for the past 17 year ) is a Life Fitness CT, a cheap Argos weight bench and a set of girlie weight dumbbells ( 10kg ). Guess what though, I am in the best shape of my life and I am a very masculine - 30" waist , 40" chest,,, with a six pack. Granted my diet is good but I have no Concept as of yet.

Sorry guys, I am not bragging, I just will not except that the CT is a waste of space..

Ahhhh I'm back to answer your specific questions. ..

If we're doing credentials... I don't do as much personal training these days, I'm a Strength and confronting Coach (BSC sports science, MSC strength and Conditioning, UKSCA accredited coach) who works with everyone from sprinters and rowers, to divers (GB athletes) and triathletes (Olympic gold medal holder amongst others).

I would use a cross trainer in a few circumstances, I.e. If they were incapable of much else. They really aren't very good!

You should have stated the above earlier to make it clearer, fits in now. So a CT is not used for your line of training, hence, the reason you stated, " they really aren't very good ".

I would like to run 10k now, just to see the time it takes me, be interesting.. A big percentage of hard training and good achievements comes from whats going on in ones head mentally too.

No, he's simply stating they are not as 'good' as an erg. The rowing stroke requires a mix of strength, flexibility, timing, and CV fitness (and balance in a boat). A CT offers a low level of CV training, and is biomechanically poor as the machine prescribes the leg and arm movements; they're like the CV version of weight machines, i.e. better than nothing but not great.