Ketosis - Low carb/high fat diet. Experiences?
Discussion
Please go easy on me, I'm a dieting/healthy eating n00b.
I've been shown a diet plan to start ketosis, however the fact thats it's relatively high fat has alarm bells ringing. Sure I understand the science but still, I hate the thought of eating cheeses, nuts oils and all the other crap I have been cutting out in case I put weight on. Problem is, if I don't eat them and I'm not supposed to eat above 40-50g of carbs, my calorie intake sits at about 650 a day which surely isn't good.
So about 6 weeks ago I decided to lose a bit of the fat around my midsection in prep for the usual Christmas feasting and boozing in the hopes that I'd come out the other side looking slightly better than most years.
I did this purely by starting a low fat diet (still reasonably low carb at 150g) which actually makes me feel healthier and is easy to sustain and so intend to continue this as my food plan for the foreseeable future. I initially started without workouts and continued over Christmas adding in press ups, sit ups, jogging and various core exercises into the mix.
When I consciously started the diet, I was bordering 12 stone, and weighing myself today I'm now 10 1/2 stone. I'm 26 and 5'10" so this all seems to be in acceptable limits. My shoulders and arms look bigger and more defined, and I think there is a decent set of abs under what is still a fair layer of fat.
Anyway, thanks for reading all the guff, my question is weather or not I should switch to the low carb diet or just stick with what I'm doing already. My ultimate aim is to drop to between 10-15% body fat as i believe I'm more or less between 20-25% currently.
Ta in advance for any guidance
I've been shown a diet plan to start ketosis, however the fact thats it's relatively high fat has alarm bells ringing. Sure I understand the science but still, I hate the thought of eating cheeses, nuts oils and all the other crap I have been cutting out in case I put weight on. Problem is, if I don't eat them and I'm not supposed to eat above 40-50g of carbs, my calorie intake sits at about 650 a day which surely isn't good.
So about 6 weeks ago I decided to lose a bit of the fat around my midsection in prep for the usual Christmas feasting and boozing in the hopes that I'd come out the other side looking slightly better than most years.
I did this purely by starting a low fat diet (still reasonably low carb at 150g) which actually makes me feel healthier and is easy to sustain and so intend to continue this as my food plan for the foreseeable future. I initially started without workouts and continued over Christmas adding in press ups, sit ups, jogging and various core exercises into the mix.
When I consciously started the diet, I was bordering 12 stone, and weighing myself today I'm now 10 1/2 stone. I'm 26 and 5'10" so this all seems to be in acceptable limits. My shoulders and arms look bigger and more defined, and I think there is a decent set of abs under what is still a fair layer of fat.
Anyway, thanks for reading all the guff, my question is weather or not I should switch to the low carb diet or just stick with what I'm doing already. My ultimate aim is to drop to between 10-15% body fat as i believe I'm more or less between 20-25% currently.
Ta in advance for any guidance
Edited by Pebbles167 on Sunday 3rd January 15:13
Just over 12 months ago I started a 5 week plan, as an experiment, on ketosis. Not for weight loss, just to see how it affects an endurance athlete. My body fat levels were already quite low to begin with, however as I said that wasn't the goal. What little fat I did have just fell off. The first week or two were very hard; muscle soreness, headaches, stuff like that, as well as a huge drop off in strength. Eventually I was keto-adaptive, but it never gave me the feeling of power that I get on a higher carb, lower fat diet. By the end of the 5 weeks I was absolutely shredded, paper thin skin. In fact people commented at the gym that I actually looked bigger, when in fact I'd lost the thick end of a stone in weight. Not sustainable, and not that healthy, but for short term weight loss it is very very effective. If you do embark on something like this, I would suggest getting your cholesterol levels checked before and during, if it's a long-term project.
The "Lipid Hypothesis" (dietary fat to cholesterol to heart disease) is complete bollards. Even the grandfather of it all admitted it nearly twenty years ago. But there are a lot of reputations, and of course money, vested in it so it persists in the mainstream. But you won't find the medical establishment measuring total cholesterol (TC) any more; it's "moved on" not backtracked. Anyway, you can google that lot in your own time. Try "Taubes".
tl;dr - I wouldn't worry on that count. The only thing you cannot do with a high fat diet is half-measures - even a single glass of alcohol blows you out of ketosis for 24 hours or more. If you go high fat and still drink alcohol or eat carbs you will get fat. It's as simple as that.
tl;dr - I wouldn't worry on that count. The only thing you cannot do with a high fat diet is half-measures - even a single glass of alcohol blows you out of ketosis for 24 hours or more. If you go high fat and still drink alcohol or eat carbs you will get fat. It's as simple as that.
Cheers for the replies.
Elliott, you say you were/are an endurance athlete, do you think the negative effects would be so severe on someone like myself who does 20 minutes of sit/press/crunch and a few miles jog a day? (Ocassionally gym, but less so after metalwork placed in my wrists) The reason i ask is where you said it is potentially unsustainable, i wonder if perhaps i might be able to as I'm generally less active than you would be.
Grumbledoak, interesting stuff on Taubes' website. May purchase some of the literature if i intended to continue with this. As for drinking/scoffing carbs, I'd ideally like to think i could resist most temptations and I'm not really a drinker. That being said, on the odd birthday i guess I'd have to eat very light in the day, take it easy with low carb booze or just not have any. I guess it's not such q big loss!
Elliott, you say you were/are an endurance athlete, do you think the negative effects would be so severe on someone like myself who does 20 minutes of sit/press/crunch and a few miles jog a day? (Ocassionally gym, but less so after metalwork placed in my wrists) The reason i ask is where you said it is potentially unsustainable, i wonder if perhaps i might be able to as I'm generally less active than you would be.
Grumbledoak, interesting stuff on Taubes' website. May purchase some of the literature if i intended to continue with this. As for drinking/scoffing carbs, I'd ideally like to think i could resist most temptations and I'm not really a drinker. That being said, on the odd birthday i guess I'd have to eat very light in the day, take it easy with low carb booze or just not have any. I guess it's not such q big loss!
I actually had a phone call from my doctor nearing the end of my time on ketosis, to say that my cholesterol levels had rocketed to a point where it was very unwise to continue. At the end of the day it's your decision, but you seem to be progressing well with what you're doing. If you're headed in the right direction, stick with it.
I tried doing Atkins back in 2013, managed about six weeks and I totally hated it.
The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
I don't like it, you feel s
t, and I think it should only be used as a last resort, when your body fat is low, but you want it very low. I've done it to extremes for prolonged periods, and its not enjoyable. Some people thrive on it though.
Healthy food and watching total calories is better.
t, and I think it should only be used as a last resort, when your body fat is low, but you want it very low. I've done it to extremes for prolonged periods, and its not enjoyable. Some people thrive on it though.Healthy food and watching total calories is better.
Pebbles167 said:
Please go easy on me, I'm a dieting/healthy eating n00b.
I've been shown a diet plan to start ketosis, however the fact thats it's relatively high fat has alarm bells ringing. Sure I understand the science but still, I hate the thought of eating cheeses, nuts oils and all the other crap I have been cutting out in case I put weight on. Problem is, if I don't eat them and I'm not supposed to eat above 40-50g of carbs, my calorie intake sits at about 650 a day which surely isn't good.
So about 6 weeks ago I decided to lose a bit of the fat around my midsection in prep for the usual Christmas feasting and boozing in the hopes that I'd come out the other side looking slightly better than most years.
I did this purely by starting a low fat diet (still reasonably low carb at 150g) which actually makes me feel healthier and is easy to sustain and so intend to continue this as my food plan for the foreseeable future. I initially started without workouts and continued over Christmas adding in press ups, sit ups, jogging and various core exercises into the mix.
When I consciously started the diet, I was bordering 12 stone, and weighing myself today I'm now 10 1/2 stone. I'm 26 and 5'10" so this all seems to be in acceptable limits. My shoulders and arms look bigger and more defined, and I think there is a decent set of abs under what is still a fair layer of fat.
Anyway, thanks for reading all the guff, my question is weather or not I should switch to the low carb diet or just stick with what I'm doing already. My ultimate aim is to drop to between 10-15% body fat as i believe I'm more or less between 20-25% currently.
Ta in advance for any guidance
I've used a ketogenic diet a few times and for extended periods.I've been shown a diet plan to start ketosis, however the fact thats it's relatively high fat has alarm bells ringing. Sure I understand the science but still, I hate the thought of eating cheeses, nuts oils and all the other crap I have been cutting out in case I put weight on. Problem is, if I don't eat them and I'm not supposed to eat above 40-50g of carbs, my calorie intake sits at about 650 a day which surely isn't good.
So about 6 weeks ago I decided to lose a bit of the fat around my midsection in prep for the usual Christmas feasting and boozing in the hopes that I'd come out the other side looking slightly better than most years.
I did this purely by starting a low fat diet (still reasonably low carb at 150g) which actually makes me feel healthier and is easy to sustain and so intend to continue this as my food plan for the foreseeable future. I initially started without workouts and continued over Christmas adding in press ups, sit ups, jogging and various core exercises into the mix.
When I consciously started the diet, I was bordering 12 stone, and weighing myself today I'm now 10 1/2 stone. I'm 26 and 5'10" so this all seems to be in acceptable limits. My shoulders and arms look bigger and more defined, and I think there is a decent set of abs under what is still a fair layer of fat.
Anyway, thanks for reading all the guff, my question is weather or not I should switch to the low carb diet or just stick with what I'm doing already. My ultimate aim is to drop to between 10-15% body fat as i believe I'm more or less between 20-25% currently.
Ta in advance for any guidance
Edited by Pebbles167 on Sunday 3rd January 15:13
THE ADVANTAGES:
1. Once actually in ketosis I don't get massive hunger pangs like I do when eating carbs.
2. I feel fine after the first 4 days.
3. My energy levels are fairly consistent, particularly when doing endurance type stuff.
4. I look slimmer when on it.
5. I quite enjoy it.
THE DISADVANTAGES:
1. About day 2 of cutting out carbs I get a nagging headache that lasts 2 days.
2. It's difficult to remain well hydrated - eating more salt helps.
3. I look drawn after being in ketosis for too long.
4. My muscles look depleted and my body looks flabby until I reintroduce carbs.
5. The timing of re-feeds is a bit of an art more than a science.
If you're going to do it, bear in mind that:
1. You'll need to be under 50g of carbs a day and stay at that level. You are either on a ketogenic diet or you aren't.
2. You'll lose a stack of weight very quickly, but it's water weight you're losing.
3. You'll probably need to supplement fibre.
4. Some people fid that they smell bad whilst in ketosis (bad breath especially).
That's my experience. The usual suspects will no doubt chime in saying that everything I have said is rubbish and that they know better.
Pretty much what didly said. It's just not enjoyable.
As for the details, I'll leave it to others who have already replied.
1) Cheese, nut oils, fish oils - these are not crap, unlike the fat you get in chips and biscuits. We need various healthy fats to live, mend, grow. You are right however that fat (good and bad) has a higher density of calories so eating too many nuts will make you fatter even though you're theoretically healthier than someone eating chips every meal.
2) Yes, 650kcals is too low, your nutritional intake will be too low, if you do exercise you will struggle and feel like st. You just need to eat roughly 500kcals less than you normally do to experience healthy, gradual weight loss.
As for the details, I'll leave it to others who have already replied.
Pebbles167 said:
cheeses, nuts oils and all the other crap I have been cutting out in case I put weight on.
Problem is, if I don't eat them and I'm not supposed to eat above 40-50g of carbs, my calorie intake sits at about 650 a day which surely isn't good.
Two things I would highlight from the above sentences.Problem is, if I don't eat them and I'm not supposed to eat above 40-50g of carbs, my calorie intake sits at about 650 a day which surely isn't good.
1) Cheese, nut oils, fish oils - these are not crap, unlike the fat you get in chips and biscuits. We need various healthy fats to live, mend, grow. You are right however that fat (good and bad) has a higher density of calories so eating too many nuts will make you fatter even though you're theoretically healthier than someone eating chips every meal.
2) Yes, 650kcals is too low, your nutritional intake will be too low, if you do exercise you will struggle and feel like s
t. You just need to eat roughly 500kcals less than you normally do to experience healthy, gradual weight loss.KamSandhu44 said:
I tried doing Atkins back in 2013, managed about six weeks and I totally hated it.
The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
10st kam - well done, that's impressive !The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
I'd love to hear more about that if you are able ?
What did you do, What did you eat ? How much exercise ?
The high's and the low's ?
Coneyhurst Blue said:
KamSandhu44 said:
I tried doing Atkins back in 2013, managed about six weeks and I totally hated it.
The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
10st kam - well done, that's impressive !The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
I'd love to hear more about that if you are able ?
What did you do, What did you eat ? How much exercise ?
The high's and the low's ?
OP - have you looked at carb cycling? I had some pretty good results on that although it takes a bit of planning and prep, and missing a workout buggers your meals up too.
You eat carbs on your heavy workout days and eat them after your workout so your muscles get replenished. Other meals are lower carb.
On rest days or easier workout days you eat low carb meals.
I basically avoid bread, pasta, rice, potatoes on rest and easy days.
You eat carbs on your heavy workout days and eat them after your workout so your muscles get replenished. Other meals are lower carb.
On rest days or easier workout days you eat low carb meals.
I basically avoid bread, pasta, rice, potatoes on rest and easy days.
The Beast of Codfin said:
Coneyhurst Blue said:
KamSandhu44 said:
I tried doing Atkins back in 2013, managed about six weeks and I totally hated it.
The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
10st kam - well done, that's impressive !The foods where boring and it made me feel like crap.
I then educated myself on how to eat properly counting my macros.
Since then I have lost 10 stone.
Personally, I would not recommend it, learn how to balance your diet and eat what you want.
I'd love to hear more about that if you are able ?
What did you do, What did you eat ? How much exercise ?
The high's and the low's ?
Cheers for the various bits of info.
944fan, a friend does what he calls carb 'backloading'. He has a very low carb diet but on a heavy training day will scoff carbs after a workout. The guy is massive and very defined, obviously works for him. I'm quite small and my original intention wasn't to gain large muscle mass, just to lose fat and tone what i do have. Would carb cycling help?
Kam, feel free to share, i wouldn't consider it a hijack. Sure I'm interested in ketosis, but ultimately I'm all for learning about weight loss however it's done. After all, i easily lost 1.5 stone in about 5 weeks through just limiting calories by about 25% RDA.
944fan, a friend does what he calls carb 'backloading'. He has a very low carb diet but on a heavy training day will scoff carbs after a workout. The guy is massive and very defined, obviously works for him. I'm quite small and my original intention wasn't to gain large muscle mass, just to lose fat and tone what i do have. Would carb cycling help?
Kam, feel free to share, i wouldn't consider it a hijack. Sure I'm interested in ketosis, but ultimately I'm all for learning about weight loss however it's done. After all, i easily lost 1.5 stone in about 5 weeks through just limiting calories by about 25% RDA.
Pebbles167 said:
Cheers for the various bits of info.
944fan, a friend does what he calls carb 'backloading'. He has a very low carb diet but on a heavy training day will scoff carbs after a workout. The guy is massive and very defined, obviously works for him. I'm quite small and my original intention wasn't to gain large muscle mass, just to lose fat and tone what i do have. Would carb cycling help?
Kam, feel free to share, i wouldn't consider it a hijack. Sure I'm interested in ketosis, but ultimately I'm all for learning about weight loss however it's done. After all, i easily lost 1.5 stone in about 5 weeks through just limiting calories by about 25% RDA.
In that case.....944fan, a friend does what he calls carb 'backloading'. He has a very low carb diet but on a heavy training day will scoff carbs after a workout. The guy is massive and very defined, obviously works for him. I'm quite small and my original intention wasn't to gain large muscle mass, just to lose fat and tone what i do have. Would carb cycling help?
Kam, feel free to share, i wouldn't consider it a hijack. Sure I'm interested in ketosis, but ultimately I'm all for learning about weight loss however it's done. After all, i easily lost 1.5 stone in about 5 weeks through just limiting calories by about 25% RDA.
Back in 2013 I weighed around 22 stone. All my own doing by over eating and not really understanding nutrition.
I started my weight loss journey by doing Atkins, it seemed easy and straight forward.
I didnt last long on it, I just didnt enjoy it, made me feel crap.
So in May 2013, I began researching and stumbled upon Bodybuilding.com. Their site has a wealth of information.
Using this link http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=156...
I learned about counting Macros and not calories. I calculated approximately how much I needed to eat to maintain my weight and from that I would minus 250 - 500 calories (from carbs) depending on comfortable I felt. The main thing I learnt was, never drastically reduce or eliminate a food group. Protein, fats and carbs are equally important.
Then came the exercise, I gym three times a week, that is plenty when eating a calorie deficit. This is my current routine.
Monday - Bench press, bent over rows, military press and leg press.
Wednesday - Incline dumbbell press, upright row, deadlift and lat pull downs.
Friday - Flat dumbbell press, low row, dumbbell shoulder press and squats.
I lift as heavy as I can without losing control of the weights and I have seen good weight loss with this.
I do about 20 mins of cardio each session (when I am bothered) but do not make it a priority.
Along with this I drink plenty of water, around 4 - 5 litres, this is very important.
There has been lots of trail and error along the way, its just about learning what your body can handle. Be consistent and you'll be surprised at what you can do. It took me nearly 18 months to find the right balance of training intensity and calorie deficit I could maintain long term.
I now see this as a lifestyle, it will be with me forever. Saying that, it is important to keep sane at the same time, so there is nothing wrong with enjoying the not so healthy foods you enjoy (in moderation). This definitely helps as refeeds to become necessary.
Set realistic goals, fat does not fall off over night. It has taken three years I am not down to 12st 6lbs and still going.
Don't be afraid to try different things and don't be afraid to fail. Just pick yourself up and carry on.
I don't claim to be a weight loss expert, this is what has worked for me. I am more than happy to answer any questions.
Forgot to add, no need to cut out white flour, bread, pasta or sugars. I know people that eat all these and are ripped. No such thing as bad carbs, dieting does not need to be boring.
Eat what you enjoy, just stick to your macros.
Edited by KamSandhu44 on Tuesday 5th January 08:20
Not ketosis or whatever but me and my other half decided on carb reduction in our diets mostly as a way to help her lose weight. For my money however it just doesn't suit me, I am already slender and I have a naturally high metabolism anyway. Lacking carbs I find when I go swim training I can bosh out sprints OK (just ok mind), but more steady pace/longer stuff just has me flogged. Some of it is general CV fitness as I have not swum heavy meterage for a number of years but I know I am fit enough that I shouldn't find sets of brisk 100's or 200's that difficult.
I could push on and eventually feel alright in some sessions, but it was properly up and down. One session would be a good one, the next one I'd be blowing out my arse.
I put it down to simply not having a reliable store of slow burning energy to count on. A girl I swim with did something similar, wanted to help a friend lose weight (and she wanted to lose the scant fat she's got to look more ripped) and I think she must have given it up as a bad job because on her measly half a roast spud carb allowance she just had no energy to give in the pool and couldn't complete 90 minute sessions.
I've gone back to eating pasta and things around my swimming times and I feel much stronger and better in the pool. I just try avoid high GI carbs/sugary things now unless I absolutely need some kind of boost.
I could push on and eventually feel alright in some sessions, but it was properly up and down. One session would be a good one, the next one I'd be blowing out my arse.
I put it down to simply not having a reliable store of slow burning energy to count on. A girl I swim with did something similar, wanted to help a friend lose weight (and she wanted to lose the scant fat she's got to look more ripped) and I think she must have given it up as a bad job because on her measly half a roast spud carb allowance she just had no energy to give in the pool and couldn't complete 90 minute sessions.
I've gone back to eating pasta and things around my swimming times and I feel much stronger and better in the pool. I just try avoid high GI carbs/sugary things now unless I absolutely need some kind of boost.
My favourite diet of all... but you have to make sure it's right for you! Some people just can't do it, others think it's great.
I used keto to lose 3st over 6 months (15st to 12st), along with 5 days a week at the gym.
I did s 6-days zero-carb (or as close as possible... 30g absolute max), with a 4-hour carb refeed (3-400g) on the 7th day.
What I found was that I'd drop 4lb during the 6 days, and the refeed would put 2lb back on. That way I could keep training... Without the refeed I was at death's door! Generally by the 7th day, my muscles were drained and my last gym session was a real fight.
As I say though, some people love it, others hate it... If you give it a go though, don't give up after the first few days... they're the hardest as your body adjusts. You'll also have trouble after the first couple of refeeds, but you soon get used to it.
Unfortunately, due to life's twists and turns, I fell out of the gym habit a few years back, despite many attempts to return, I couldn't maintain the motivation for long enough. My diet slipped and I'm now back where I started.
Today is my first day back on Keto, and my goal is to get back to my prime by Aug 29th.
I used keto to lose 3st over 6 months (15st to 12st), along with 5 days a week at the gym.
I did s 6-days zero-carb (or as close as possible... 30g absolute max), with a 4-hour carb refeed (3-400g) on the 7th day.
What I found was that I'd drop 4lb during the 6 days, and the refeed would put 2lb back on. That way I could keep training... Without the refeed I was at death's door! Generally by the 7th day, my muscles were drained and my last gym session was a real fight.
As I say though, some people love it, others hate it... If you give it a go though, don't give up after the first few days... they're the hardest as your body adjusts. You'll also have trouble after the first couple of refeeds, but you soon get used to it.
Unfortunately, due to life's twists and turns, I fell out of the gym habit a few years back, despite many attempts to return, I couldn't maintain the motivation for long enough. My diet slipped and I'm now back where I started.
Today is my first day back on Keto, and my goal is to get back to my prime by Aug 29th.
See this link for some professional comment on Ketosis in athletes. Obviously most of us are not athletes but it's interesting stuff.
http://www.enduranceplanet.com/dr-tamsin-lewis-dan...
http://www.enduranceplanet.com/dr-tamsin-lewis-dan...
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