Realistic combined levels of fat loss and lean mass gain
Discussion
Fantastic progress, amazing that your scales were in the same ball park as the Dexa Scan, I have been warned not to trust them but if they are wrong they are at least consistently so, I started at 31 percent Bodyfat and am now on 28, 33 percent muscle is now 35 which is consistent with how I feel, clothes fit better and looking in the mirror I can see my shape changing.
I think it is important not to get too competitive with guys on here, some are utter machines that have been training for years and years, I do what I can and can see improvement but I am not going to start willy waving, or trying to as I will hurt myself if I try to. I reckont hat if I am at the gym or in my man shed doing three sets of squats with only sixty kilos on, that is me going up and down 30 times with the equivalent of a smallish person on my back, as opposed to being sat in front of the telly, will go to seventy when its easy, not cos Diddly, Smiffy, Chris or whoever can Squat a Bull Elephant after its Christmas Dinner.
I am 45 and still two to three stone overweight, but I am seeing improvements, I am not expecting Physical perfection but I look and feel better, my pants dont cut me in half, I can see muscle, I can feel stuff I couldn't feel before under my skin, it is very compelling.
My aim is to take my shirt off on holiday next summer and not feel like a fat blob, actually feel confident, nobody really cares but it is something to aim for.
Down ten pounds, probably more but I expect a couple of pounds of muscle have gone on in the last 8 weeks.
This is just the way it has to be for me now, was going down a bad path, its little things as well, can now eat Porridge without anything else on it so have trained my palate away from sweetness.
I think it is important not to get too competitive with guys on here, some are utter machines that have been training for years and years, I do what I can and can see improvement but I am not going to start willy waving, or trying to as I will hurt myself if I try to. I reckont hat if I am at the gym or in my man shed doing three sets of squats with only sixty kilos on, that is me going up and down 30 times with the equivalent of a smallish person on my back, as opposed to being sat in front of the telly, will go to seventy when its easy, not cos Diddly, Smiffy, Chris or whoever can Squat a Bull Elephant after its Christmas Dinner.
I am 45 and still two to three stone overweight, but I am seeing improvements, I am not expecting Physical perfection but I look and feel better, my pants dont cut me in half, I can see muscle, I can feel stuff I couldn't feel before under my skin, it is very compelling.
My aim is to take my shirt off on holiday next summer and not feel like a fat blob, actually feel confident, nobody really cares but it is something to aim for.
Down ten pounds, probably more but I expect a couple of pounds of muscle have gone on in the last 8 weeks.
This is just the way it has to be for me now, was going down a bad path, its little things as well, can now eat Porridge without anything else on it so have trained my palate away from sweetness.
Hoofy said:
I suppose so. I guess it's related to how most people have a NYR approach to gyms.
I don't think there's any doubt that the hormonal and metabolic changes of middle age make it harder to achieve the same changes, nor that a lot of people of all ages get it wrong and don't get the results they were hoping for. I think also that people can get the impression that they've gained a lot of muscle when they've just lost fat and gained tone, which probably results in a frowny face when they scan tells them they've actually lost a bit!J4CKO said:
Fantastic progress, amazing that your scales were in the same ball park as the Dexa Scan, I have been warned not to trust them but if they are wrong they are at least consistently so, I started at 31 percent Bodyfat and am now on 28, 33 percent muscle is now 35 which is consistent with how I feel, clothes fit better and looking in the mirror I can see my shape changing.
It's interesting that they were right the first time and are well out now. Could be the stopped clock right once a day effect, or could be that it doesn't work very well over that range of values. In normal mode, it overestimates my body fat and in athlete mode it underestimates it. J4CKO said:
I think it is important not to get too competitive with guys on here, some are utter machines that have been training for years and years, I do what I can and can see improvement but I am not going to start willy waving, or trying to as I will hurt myself if I try to.
God no, not getting into that! 
The weights are getting heavier, but that's just to get the effect I want, not for the sake of it.
J4CKO said:
I am 45 and still two to three stone overweight, but I am seeing improvements, I am not expecting Physical perfection but I look and feel better, my pants dont cut me in half, I can see muscle, I can feel stuff I couldn't feel before under my skin, it is very compelling.
Yes, that's the thing, I got into this because I had got fat, again, and I wanted not just to get it off but to reduce the chances of it coming back. But now, I'm quite liking the effect.
MurderousCrow said:
ConclusionIn resistance-trained young men who do not significantly alter their training regimen, consuming a high protein diet (2.6 to 3.3 g/kg/day) over a 4-month period has no effect on blood lipids or markers of renal and hepatic function. Nor were there any changes in performance or body composition. This is the first crossover trial using resistance-trained subjects in which the elevation of protein intake to over four times the recommended dietary allowance has shown no harmful effects.
Nice.
http://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1...
otolith said:
Hoofy said:
I suppose so. I guess it's related to how most people have a NYR approach to gyms.
I don't think there's any doubt that the hormonal and metabolic changes of middle age make it harder to achieve the same changes, nor that a lot of people of all ages get it wrong and don't get the results they were hoping for. I think also that people can get the impression that they've gained a lot of muscle when they've just lost fat and gained tone, which probably results in a frowny face when they scan tells them they've actually lost a bit!otolith said:
Hoofy said:
I suppose so. I guess it's related to how most people have a NYR approach to gyms.
I don't think there's any doubt that the hormonal and metabolic changes of middle age make it harder to achieve the same changes, nor that a lot of people of all ages get it wrong and don't get the results they were hoping for. I think also that people can get the impression that they've gained a lot of muscle when they've just lost fat and gained tone, which probably results in a frowny face when they scan tells them they've actually lost a bit!“Lean mass significantly increased over time in both groups… Furthermore, (middle-aged) men lost significantly more fat mass and significantly decreased % body fat compared with (college-aged) men. A split-body, linearly periodized resistance training program may be used as an effective program to increase strength and lean mass in both young and MA populations.”
Other studies I've read (but frustratingly now cannot seem to find) also indicate that strength and lean mass gains are comparable between younger and older males (all other factors being equal), however power does seem to be negatively affected by age. This is borne out anecdotally in strength sports: power-dependent sports are dominated at elite levels by younger individuals, whereas slower-moving, strength-dependent sports have a deeper representation of older people (males and females) at the elite levels.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19387379
TL:DR – Older people can gain muscle at comparable rates to younger people.
And you're both correct in saying that most people do not train effectively. The study above and the others I've read used "multijoint exercises that targeted all major muscle groups." I feel that, had the studies applied training regimes along the lines of what most people do in most gyms, the results would be bleak indeed.
Full text for anyone who's interested:
http://exerciseandsportnutritionlab.com/wp-content...
Full text for anyone who's interested:
http://exerciseandsportnutritionlab.com/wp-content...
And finally, some corroboration on the main point made above, from a respected exercise science writer:
https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/sar...
"...the most dominant cause of sarcopenia is inactivity."
"With proper stimulus (resistance training) and adequate protein intake it is both possible and common for older adults to gain muscle."
https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/sar...
"...the most dominant cause of sarcopenia is inactivity."
"With proper stimulus (resistance training) and adequate protein intake it is both possible and common for older adults to gain muscle."
otolith said:
I wonder why the nurse is generally seeing better results in younger patients?
As above, most people are simply not training effectively. Or eating effectively. If recovery is not supported with adequate protein (and to a lesser degree, carbohydrate), gains will be slim to non-existent.The research seems to be pretty clear about what constitutes effective training, and regardless of split / set / rep variations it boils down to using compound movements involving all major muscle groups, each exercised more than once weekly.
So the '80%' if you like, can be gained simply from doing a meaningful exercise regime (and having adequate supportive nutrition), almost regardless of how it's divided up. That's borne out in the studies which show significant lean mass gain in older people: they may use a variety of regimes, but share similar fundamental exercises.
otolith said:
Do you think perhaps younger subjects are more likely to get it right, or maybe more resilient to getting it wrong?
Given that under the same conditions, older and younger subjects respond to training in very similar ways, there’s got to be a difference in general approach. A big motivator for a lot of people is simply looking good, young people may generally be prepared to work for that a bit harder. More reason to do so, especially if you’re single? It's also quite possible that younger people are being exposed to more effective training methods - university sport is taking off in a big way and a lot more people are interested in physical activity. There does seem to be a positive cultural change afoot to some extent.Hoofy said:
Yep, suspect the older "patients" don't stick religiously to their training and eating plan due to busy lifestyle (work, family, etc).
That's certainly a big factor. As we age and partner off people also seem to have that tendency to 'let go'. There's lots of interesting psychosocial stuff there, but in people who do attend the gym on any frequent basis, I suspect sub-par gains are down to a combination of lifestyle and relationship issues, cultural beliefs and expectations, and poor training knowledge. Luke
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