Losing fat / gaining muscle

[Autopilot]

didelydoo said:

I was going to post similar the other day, typed out and then deleted as people would argue with it... the fact of the matter that pretty much no one natural gains lean tissue and loses fat concurrently unless they've come from a harsh diet, or are obese.

This is why the gym isn't full of lean, huge people. And tends to be full of people think they are 'lean gaining', where in fact, they are spinning their wheels trying to get bigger without eating enough and worried about putting on a bit of fat. No need to get grossly fat, but expect to gain a bit.

It's good to see somebody else understands the fundamentals I do understand some people's argument that you can gain lean tissue and lose bodyfat at the same time, but like you've pointed out, these are the exception not the rule. You can shock your body in to growth by never having stepped in to a gym before, working your butt off and your body being dazed and confused as to what the hells happened. The same applies to fat loss as well of course. From doing no exercise to doing an hour a day and cutting the crap out the diet will make a huge difference very quickly but that will soon plateau and you need to change tactic.

Like you pointed out, once you've put yourself in to normal ranges of the human form, something has to change or you'll just stop getting results and you need to focus on what you want. People train harder but without the right diet it's all kind of pointless.

We've all been to a gym where there's that guy that despite wearing a headband working his nuts off and always being drenched in sweat never looks any different in the years you've seen him training? If he's not getting stronger, fitter or leaner then what is he doing? He's maintaining and why the hell does he have to train so hard to maintain his already stty shape?

While a lot of people always state they don't want to look like a bodybuilder or 'get too big', people really need to learn from these experts, the fundamentals are exactly the same. When a Bodybuilder is prepping for a competition, his gains are made while adding a bit of fat too (thanks for pointing that out, very clear explanation!) and they don't add muscle while cutting. If people follow these basic principals they'll get the results they want. The dedication required is immense and very few people succeed. Getting to 12 - 15% body fat is hard work. Getting to single digits is VERY draining and anybody who can get to sub 6% then well done to them! You need a strong body but this is nothing without a stronger mind!

[didelydoo]

chris watton said:

Just my personal opinion, but with respect, I do not think you are nowhere near big enough, muscle-wise to even think about 'cutting'

If it were me, I would just concentrate on eating healthily and concentrating on your 5x5 progression. And think about what you may look like this time next year.

I have always viewed the 'bulk and cut' is a method for seasoned bodybuilders who already have plenty of muscle to get into competition shape. I will never understand why relative beginners think they have to do it.

I'd agree here. I'd just carry on what your doing, and see how that goes- at your stage, just keep trying to get stronger, eat enough and you'll be fine. Look at leaning out when you know you've got a decent base to cut back to. You'd be surprised ho much fat you can carry and not look 'fat' when there's more muscle underneath

[didelydoo]

olly22n said:

I have little interest in being a bodybuilder. I don't want a beer belly first adn foremost, but i would like to be a little stronger.

Ideal bodyshape would be that of a royal marine/jason bourne type. I do not want to be a muscle mary witha low v neck t-shirt!!!

Just work hard, get stronger and eat well- that'll get you where you want to be- just be consistent with it, as that's where most folk go wrong.

[johnwilliams77]

didelydoo said:

Just work hard, get stronger and eat well- that'll get you where you want to be- just be consistent with it, as that's where most folk go wrong.

And eat better... (If indeed you have 3/4 cheat meals a week!)

[chris watton]

olly22n said:

I have little interest in being a bodybuilder. I don't want a beer belly first adn foremost, but i would like to be a little stronger.

Ideal bodyshape would be that of a royal marine/jason bourne type. I do not want to be a muscle mary witha low v neck t-shirt!!!

I too would like a body like Jason Bourne, and I have been training consistently for well over two years! lol

I think that to achieve a body like a 'Muscle Mary', you would need to train hard and consistent for at least 5 years, or use steroids. Training naturally can be a very long, hard process, and doing your routines no matter what, plus you will never look like the muscle-bound guys you allude to anyway, not without pharmaceutical help - or you are at the right age with excellent genetics...

[crashley]

What is this 'cheat meal' stuff? i have a horrible feeling i have at least 1 cheat meal a day and probably a cheat bottle of wine and dessert too... but i've always done that. I have figured i'll eat what i want and just train hard. Surely if i was doing that anyway (and managed not to be a fat gimp) then the training will make a big difference? I just won't achieve instant results.

[johnwilliams77]

olly22n said:

I have introduced more cheat meals to reward myself for not drinking.

I'll wean myself off them of course but in the short term no booze is the bigger target and challenge.

I did the same
No booze but lots of food and activity
Only took me to a certain level
Tried some REALLY clean eating as advised by a PT to reduce water weight and made a massive difference in just a couple of weeks (body fat and water weight)

[Hoofy]

didelydoo said:

I'd agree here. I'd just carry on what your doing, and see how that goes- at your stage, just keep trying to get stronger, eat enough and you'll be fine. Look at leaning out when you know you've got a decent base to cut back to. You'd be surprised ho much fat you can carry and not look 'fat' when there's more muscle underneath

And it's pretty effortless. When I started that PH fitness challenge thing 4-ish years ago, I hit the gym hard, doing HIIT 5-6 times a week, weights, extreme dieting. I lost a lot of fat but also enough muscle to make me look ill. Nowadays, I eat reasonably healthily (I just had a packet of crisps; I drink once or twice a week maybe 3-4 units) but try not to miss a day of training (mainly weights) where I push it until I'm done. I also try to play some kind of sport at least twice a week.

Weights is not a bore because I usually have an audio book or watch a DVD etc. Sports is just fun (you may need to find the right sport or fitness class for you) so I'd happily do that 7 days a week if I had the time. Sports take priority, though (I won't do shoulders the day before a tennis session).

Overall, I enjoy a pretty healthy, active life without having to take any supps (ok, someone gave me a couple of sample protein bars yesterday that I will eat!) and am in decent shape, but at 44, I do have age on my side.

Thing is, I know that if I cut all activities out, I will get fat again...

[Autopilot]

johnwilliams77 said:

I did the same
No booze but lots of food and activity
Only took me to a certain level
Tried some REALLY clean eating as advised by a PT to reduce water weight and made a massive difference in just a couple of weeks (body fat and water weight)

Water weight reduction is primarily done by consuming more water and less so by diet (although it does of course contribute - Low sodium etc etc)

[otolith]

Salt will increase water retention quite markedly. So will not being glycogen depleted - that chunk of weight that people lose in the first week of a low calorie, low carb diet will reappear overnight if you stuff your face with carbs. But really, blood pressure issues aside, does it matter?

[Autopilot]

olly22n said:

I have introduced more cheat meals to reward myself for not drinking.

I'll wean myself off them of course but in the short term no booze is the bigger target and challenge.

Playing devils advocate, surely the reward for not drinking is better results from your training? To replace booze with something else with a high calorific value seems counterproductive.

Can you not just not replace alcohol with, well, nothing?

There's nothing wrong with the occasional drink. I'd be more inclined to limit alcohol intake and not substitute.

[Autopilot]

otolith said:

Salt will increase water retention quite markedly. So will not being glycogen depleted - that chunk of weight that people lose in the first week of a low calorie, low carb diet will reappear overnight if you stuff your face with carbs. But really, blood pressure issues aside, does it matter?

Nope, not one bit!

The only time water weight becomes important is if you need to be weighed in (MMA, Boxing etc) or if you're already lean and need to be leaner and look more vascular for a comp.

You are 100% correct. Water weight at the beginning of starting an exercise regime is false economy. Let your clothes and mirrors do the talking.

[popeyewhite]

Autopilot said:

I do understand some people's argument that you can gain lean tissue and lose bodyfat at the same time, but like you've pointed out, these are the exception not the rule.

That's incorrect, are you suggesting that some people's basic bodily functions differ from others? I think possibly you're looking from a bber's perspective, where losing bf and gaining lean tissue is actually harder because a bber normally already has low bf. However for a beginner it should be far easier to achieve. It's very basic stuff this and really is as simple as 1.creating a calorie deficit, 2.doing cardiorespiratory exercise, 3.performing the right combination of resistance exercises to inspire muscle hypertrophy, and 4. making sure your macros are correct. Most important is to remember all exercises are performed whilst on a calorie deficit - this is why most fail as they find it just too demanding.

[Kiwi LS2]

popeyewhite said:

what he said /\

Have to agree with this. In the last two years I have dropped from 21% BF to 12%, scale weight has stayed exactly the same. No gym, just breaststroke 3x a week 45min sessions and walking 40 miles per week (dogs!). Clean eating, calorie deficit 5 days a week minimum and drinking 3 days a month on average bar holidays. Carrying noticeably a lot more muscle in chest, shoulders, arms and legs. Waist now 28" from 32" (5'8").

Only concession to weights is dumbell curls with a single freeweight after swimming, 3 reps per arm time under tension until failure.

Macros? I eat approx 300grams of carbs a day, and around 120grams of protein.

Best thing is no injuries.

[johnwilliams77]

Kiwi LS2 said:

Have to agree with this. In the last two years I have dropped from 21% BF to 12%, scale weight has stayed exactly the same. No gym, just breaststroke 3x a week 45min sessions and walking 40 miles per week (dogs!). Clean eating, calorie deficit 5 days a week minimum and drinking 3 days a month on average bar holidays. Carrying noticeably a lot more muscle in chest, shoulders, arms and legs. Waist now 28" from 32" (5'8").

Only concession to weights is dumbell curls with a single freeweight after swimming, 3 reps per arm time under tension until failure.

Macros? I eat approx 300grams of carbs a day, and around 120grams of protein.

Best thing is no injuries.

I am more surprised that 21% bf was a waist of 32". I am 5 9/10 and had a bf of 19% a couple of months ago and waist was a good bit higher. We are all different I guess. Well done on your progress. I bet you're proud of yourself.

[Kiwi LS2]

johnwilliams77 said:

I am more surprised that 21% bf was a waist of 32". I am 5 9/10 and had a bf of 19% a couple of months ago and waist was a good bit higher. We are all different I guess. Well done on your progress. I bet you're proud of yourself.

Yeah we all carry weight slightly differently, and thanks I am really stoked with how it's coming. Six pack hopefully by the end of the year! (This one, with any luck...) Main thing is I know I can more than happily eat like I do now for the rest of my life, never have I enjoyed food more. Should make staying fit and healthy easier, which I think has to be the main aim of any fitness/lifestyle change regime.

[otolith]

Autopilot said:

Let your clothes and mirrors do the talking.

Shameful confession regarding mirrors and clothes - I am a little ashamed of how vain I feel I am becoming as a result of this process. I've dropped from 15st on Jan 1 to 11st-11 today. I'm in my 8th week of doing four sessions a week in the gym with a PT. The fat is gradually receding from my extremities as it is beaten back to its stronghold on the belly. I'm still fairly unhappy about the appearance of my lower abdomen, but my stomach is very much flatter than it was and I can feel that the underlying musculature is a lot harder than it was. Just a matter of further reducing my body fat % until the belly is gone. From the bottom of the rib cage up, or from behind, however, I'm delighted. The moobs have gone and the shape of my chest has changed. Although I've been lighter than this weight before, I have acquired some definition on my arms, shoulders and upper back that I've never had in my life, and while it's not remotely impressive in seasoned gym rat terms, I can't quite get over the feeling that it doesn't look like my own body.

The object of this exercise was never aesthetics or vanity, it was to get to a healthier weight while retaining/building muscle to facilitate maintaining it. Certainly not to become one of "those" guys. But I definitely have a new appreciation of why people do that and how easily one could become obsessive about it.

[Hoofy]

otolith said:

Shameful confession regarding mirrors and clothes - I am a little ashamed of how vain I feel I am becoming as a result of this process.

I am not ashamed at all of looking in the mirror and approving of my physique. Nothing else I do is based on vanity. I don't preen myself every morning for hours upon end like some "metrosexuals" do.

[chris watton]

otolith said:

Shameful confession regarding mirrors and clothes - I am a little ashamed of how vain I feel I am becoming as a result of this process. I've dropped from 15st on Jan 1 to 11st-11 today. I'm in my 8th week of doing four sessions a week in the gym with a PT. The fat is gradually receding from my extremities as it is beaten back to its stronghold on the belly. I'm still fairly unhappy about the appearance of my lower abdomen, but my stomach is very much flatter than it was and I can feel that the underlying musculature is a lot harder than it was. Just a matter of further reducing my body fat % until the belly is gone. From the bottom of the rib cage up, or from behind, however, I'm delighted. The moobs have gone and the shape of my chest has changed. Although I've been lighter than this weight before, I have acquired some definition on my arms, shoulders and upper back that I've never had in my life, and while it's not remotely impressive in seasoned gym rat terms, I can't quite get over the feeling that it doesn't look like my own body.

The object of this exercise was never aesthetics or vanity, it was to get to a healthier weight while retaining/building muscle to facilitate maintaining it. Certainly not to become one of "those" guys. But I definitely have a new appreciation of why people do that and how easily one could become obsessive about it.

Belly fat can be a very stubborn bugger! I have a bit of belly fat still, even though the rest of me is seemingly now free from any fat (veins showing on chest and thighs). I have resigned myself to the fact that I would have to go on too much of a calorie deficit for at least 2 months to clear the last vestiges of visible fat - and it really doesn't bother me that much now. I am stronger (once injuries heal completely..), fitter and healthier than I have ever been, and am happy with a 30" waist. I cannot justify becoming too obsessed with just one body part and putting the rest at risk via voluntary malnutrition..

[otolith]

Hoofy said:

otolith said:

Shameful confession regarding mirrors and clothes - I am a little ashamed of how vain I feel I am becoming as a result of this process.

I am not ashamed at all of looking in the mirror and approving of my physique. Nothing else I do is based on vanity. I don't preen myself every morning for hours upon end like some "metrosexuals" do.

REPENT, SINNER!