Arghh Cutting! Not working well for me
Discussion
ORD said:
popeyewhite said:
ORD said:
I'm 33 and cannot, any longer, gain muscle or strength without gaining a little bit of fat. I could when I was younger, but it seems to be affected by testosterone levels...and lack of sleep.
33 Eh? Dwindling testosterone levels will encourage more fat storage...when you get to your forties and beyond. At your age you should have no issues with t levels at all. T and GH production can be enhanced by intensity of lifting (heavy weight, short breaks). Sleep is important obviously but at your age you should be able to grow standing up 
Jesus no hope for me then !
popeyewhite said:
Are you a bodybuilder or weightlifter OP? Because if you're not then you're on a weightloss diet, not a cut.
I'm a weight lifter. According to my stats I am Novice level. Call it cutting, call it dieting, whatever. I just want my BF % down as its high according to what I've read. I'd be happy if it were 15% not 22%. Its more for health than vanity really.I'm thinking about having a go at 5:2 next week to try and break the plateau I'm seeing. My body does seem to have adjusted to my lower calorie intake as my weight loss is now slowing down to a stall too.
May not be the right sounding advice in some or possibly many ways, but if I were you, I'd go and enjoy the beer & pies or kebabs for a day or three.
Then get back to the 'miserable' diet (or a touch less/worse) and do some less bodybuilder type exercise at the same time. Sub 2000 cals pd and 5-10 mile run (or 20-30m on a bike) per day after a splurge will have an effect on that lard, even if you carry on with the party diet, let alone if you go back to being saintly.
Then get back to the 'miserable' diet (or a touch less/worse) and do some less bodybuilder type exercise at the same time. Sub 2000 cals pd and 5-10 mile run (or 20-30m on a bike) per day after a splurge will have an effect on that lard, even if you carry on with the party diet, let alone if you go back to being saintly.
J4CKO said:
Autopilot said:
Jefferson Steelflex said:
I've been trying to lose body fat and grow lean muscle at the same time since 1st January.
Have you tried doing one or the other? The reason I say that is because this approach will limit the results you get as your diet can't support both objectives. If you're in a calories deficit to burn fat then you won't be able to put muscle on as your diet won't support this and vice versa.Not planning on getting massive, prob too old at 46, dont actually want to be and dont have anywhere near the dedication anyway but noticing positive change, just want to look alright in t shirts that cant be used for a Circus
Wouldnt trying to do both at the same time be similar to thee concept of cutting then, I am guessing Body Builders still train when preparing for a competition ?
When I was prepping for a competition (I didn't compete in the end) I found I got very tired very quickly after a few weeks of cutting. I just couldn't shift the big weights and as the weeks went on the weights got lighter but upped the reps. I dare say I was still training at a level that would blow even enthusiastic gym goers in to the dust, but by my regular standard, workouts were less intense but felt loads worse than normal. Each session absolutely killed me.
When you're training at that intensity with a proper diet, body fat comes off quite quickly but you won't put any muscle on, you'll actually lose some lean tissue as you can't sustain that amount of lean mass on that calorie intake. There is no growth during this time, just some sculpting, definition and extreme dehydration, cutting is literally just that, shedding fat.
One of my friends competes regularly and was in 4 or 5 shows last year including NABBA Universe. He owns the gym where I currently train and it was a regular sight to see him asleep in the office sat upright in a chair on his run up to a comp as the regime really is that punishing.
If you ever see how much food still gets shoveled in during cutting, you'd probably be amazed!
popeyewhite said:
Autopilot said:
The reason I say that is because this approach will limit the results
You certainly need good discipline!Autopilot said:
..you get as your diet can't support both objectives.
Why not?My comment about not being able to add lean tissue and drop body fat at the same time is because the body has very different calorific needs to achieve either of them. To drop body fat you need to be on a low calorie diet and be in a calorie deficit. You need to do the opposite if you want to build, you need to shove loads more calories in!
J4CKO said:
ORD said:
popeyewhite said:
ORD said:
I'm 33 and cannot, any longer, gain muscle or strength without gaining a little bit of fat. I could when I was younger, but it seems to be affected by testosterone levels...and lack of sleep.
33 Eh? Dwindling testosterone levels will encourage more fat storage...when you get to your forties and beyond. At your age you should have no issues with t levels at all. T and GH production can be enhanced by intensity of lifting (heavy weight, short breaks). Sleep is important obviously but at your age you should be able to grow standing up Jesus no hope for me then !
Well I started the 5:2 diet this week as, as expected, my weight loss and BF% had both stalled when I weighed in Monday AM. Did my first fast day Tuesday (it wasn't fun) and back in the gym for Chest and Tricep day today. My 5 rep bench press is down a bit this week, but to be expected I guess as I've been dieting/cutting whatever you want to call it for 4 weeks now. Every workout I have at least one heavy compound exercise for 3 sets and use these plus the strong app to see if strength is going up or down over time.
Will see what the scales and BF% says next Monday after a week of 5:2.
Will see what the scales and BF% says next Monday after a week of 5:2.
Autopilot said:
My comment about not being able to add lean tissue and drop body fat at the same time is because the body has very different calorific needs to achieve either of them. To drop body fat you need to be on a low calorie diet and be in a calorie deficit.
You just need the deficit. Can be via diet or exercise or both.Autopilot said:
You need to do the opposite if you want to build, you need to shove loads more calories in!
I'm pretty sure as long as you're getting your required protein and some pre-workout carbs you'll be fine on the same diet, as long as it's not too aggressive. If you're trying to get lean, why are on Earth are you doing a bodybuilding split workout? Just do full body workouts every time. You're not nearly strong enough to need a split, and the full body workouts will sort out your testosterone and metabolism issues (if any).
I also would pursue some drastic fasting diet until you've tried more conventional means of losing fat.
I also would pursue some drastic fasting diet until you've tried more conventional means of losing fat.
ORD said:
If you're trying to get lean, why are on Earth are you doing a bodybuilding split workout? Just do full body workouts every time. You're not nearly strong enough to need a split, and the full body workouts will sort out your testosterone and metabolism issues (if any).
I also would pursue some drastic fasting diet until you've tried more conventional means of losing fat.
Wrong on both accounts in my case. I did Strong lifts 5x5 for 6 months before I moved to a split. The reason was I was not able to recover fast enough for full body workouts anymore. I quit SL as heavy squats 3x a week were killing me and hitting all my other lifts. Mind you I did make very good gains on this program before it got too tough.I also would pursue some drastic fasting diet until you've tried more conventional means of losing fat.
Normal dieting seems to work to a point then stalls for me, I think my body just adjusts and slows my metabolism down to match. Hence why I'm giving 5:2 a go. Don't know until you try right.
stargazer30 said:
Wrong on both accounts in my case. I did Strong lifts 5x5 for 6 months before I moved to a split. The reason was I was not able to recover fast enough for full body workouts anymore. I quit SL as heavy squats 3x a week were killing me and hitting all my other lifts. Mind you I did make very good gains on this program before it got too tough.
Normal dieting seems to work to a point then stalls for me, I think my body just adjusts and slows my metabolism down to match. Hence why I'm giving 5:2 a go. Don't know until you try right.
You could mix it up a little if you're OK with not sticking to 5 reps or the same exercises. For example, for Squats, you could do a medium weight day in the 12-8 rep range (Doinf 12 reps with a medium weight can be just as, if not more exhausting than 5 reps with heavier weight..) and then a heavy day, and alternate. Alternatively, Squats on Monday, Leg Press of Wednesday and back to Squats again on Friday. Same with Bench Press, mix the rep ranges or flat bench one day, then Incline Bench the next session, and then back to flat Bench. There is also so many variations in BOR, you don't have to do the exact same Row each session.Normal dieting seems to work to a point then stalls for me, I think my body just adjusts and slows my metabolism down to match. Hence why I'm giving 5:2 a go. Don't know until you try right.
stargazer30 said:
ORD said:
If you're trying to get lean, why are on Earth are you doing a bodybuilding split workout? Just do full body workouts every time. You're not nearly strong enough to need a split, and the full body workouts will sort out your testosterone and metabolism issues (if any).
I also would pursue some drastic fasting diet until you've tried more conventional means of losing fat.
Wrong on both accounts in my case. I did Strong lifts 5x5 for 6 months before I moved to a split. The reason was I was not able to recover fast enough for full body workouts anymore. I quit SL as heavy squats 3x a week were killing me and hitting all my other lifts. Mind you I did make very good gains on this program before it got too tough.I also would pursue some drastic fasting diet until you've tried more conventional means of losing fat.
Normal dieting seems to work to a point then stalls for me, I think my body just adjusts and slows my metabolism down to match. Hence why I'm giving 5:2 a go. Don't know until you try right.
Using a body part split at novice level is plain silly. You're not even close to the kind of weights where it starts to make sense.
I agree with Chris re squats. Heavy squats 3 x per week is a lot, so mix it up. But what does 'heavy' mean here? You may be lifting to close to your maxes. Only the last set or two should feel very hard.
Autopilot said:
Have you tried doing one or the other? The reason I say that is because this approach will limit the results you get as your diet can't support both objectives. If you're in a calories deficit to burn fat then you won't be able to put muscle on as your diet won't support this and vice versa.
Bit late response but it's gone well for me. I'm down 6kg and have good definition and strength gains have been good. It is all about vanity more than anything, but I've done pretty well and I keep mixing it up (cardio and resistance amounts change each time) every few weeks so always seeing progress.
ORD said:
Then something is very wrong with your recovery - either sleep or nutrition. A guy who is still lifting relatively light weights should be able to recover from a full body workout in 48 hours.
Using a body part split at novice level is plain silly. You're not even close to the kind of weights where it starts to make sense.
I agree with Chris re squats. Heavy squats 3 x per week is a lot, so mix it up. But what does 'heavy' mean here? You may be lifting to close to your maxes. Only the last set or two should feel very hard.
I think it was the squats that did me in TBH. I tried all ways as I really wanted to keep on SL, I must have watched a dozen squat form vids, tried various stances, wide, thin, knees out, you name it. End result was always the same, +90K squat and my back gets fried. I tried doing a variant of SLs once I came off it. That was squats twice a week, then down to once a week by substituting leg press etc.. Still no joy. I gave up on squats completely about 2 months ago now. My back is slowly getting better. I have mild APT which I think just does me over for back squats, but the daft thing is I can deadlift fine. Currently my max 5 rep deadlift is 135kg and my back gives me no trouble the next day.Using a body part split at novice level is plain silly. You're not even close to the kind of weights where it starts to make sense.
I agree with Chris re squats. Heavy squats 3 x per week is a lot, so mix it up. But what does 'heavy' mean here? You may be lifting to close to your maxes. Only the last set or two should feel very hard.
EDIT - to add. Squats were never a leg exercise for me. My legs are just warming up at 100kg. It always, always without fail felt like a lower back exercise and it was always my back that gave out before my legs. I need to leg press about 220kg for 5 reps on the 45D sled (150kg plates and 70ish machine weight) to give my legs a hammering.
Also re recovery. I am not aching for days or anything, but I find if I try the same compound lift more than once a week I don't progress, I get sore joints and my lifts go down. For example for bench I tried free bar one day and later that week smith bench with heavier weights to try and get my bench up and all it did was cause shoulder pain. Now I am back to free bar once a week, no pain and my bench is very slowly going up again, currently almost hitting 3 set of 5 reps at 70kg.
My diet has always been good, its probably better than most folks, I track my macros etc.. My only weak area would be sleep, I can't get more than 7 hours most days due to family/work etc..
Edited by stargazer30 on Friday 24th February 10:27
Edited by stargazer30 on Friday 24th February 10:30
stargazer30 said:
I think it was the squats that did me in TBH. I tried all ways as I really wanted to keep on SL, I must have watched a dozen squat form vids, tried various stances, wide, thin, knees out, you name it. End result was always the same, +90K squat and my back gets fried. I tried doing a variant of SLs once I came off it. That was squats twice a week, then down to once a week by substituting leg press etc.. Still no joy. I gave up on squats completely about 2 months ago now. My back is slowly getting better. I have mild APT which I think just does me over for back squats, but the daft thing is I can deadlift fine. Currently my max 5 rep deadlift is 135kg and my back gives me no trouble the next day.
Also re recovery. I am not aching for days or anything, but I find if I try the same compound lift more than once a week I don't progress, I get sore joints and my lifts go down. For example for bench I tried free bar one day and later that week smith bench with heavier weights to try and get my bench up and all it did was cause shoulder pain. Now I am back to free bar once a week, no pain and my bench is very slowly going up again, currently almost hitting 3 set of 5 reps at 70kg.
My diet has always been good, its probably better than most folks, I track my macros etc.. My only weak area would be sleep, I can't get more than 7 hours most days due to family/work etc..
Perhaps until you discover what the problem is, maybe do Squats on a Friday and Leg Press Monday and Wednesday, your back is more protected and you can still go heavy, giving your legs a decent workout, which is important for Deadlift progression, I think. Also, it may be worth starting each workout with one or two sets of 20 Back Extensions. I find these perfect for stretching my hamstrings and warming up my lower back.Also re recovery. I am not aching for days or anything, but I find if I try the same compound lift more than once a week I don't progress, I get sore joints and my lifts go down. For example for bench I tried free bar one day and later that week smith bench with heavier weights to try and get my bench up and all it did was cause shoulder pain. Now I am back to free bar once a week, no pain and my bench is very slowly going up again, currently almost hitting 3 set of 5 reps at 70kg.
My diet has always been good, its probably better than most folks, I track my macros etc.. My only weak area would be sleep, I can't get more than 7 hours most days due to family/work etc..
Edited by stargazer30 on Friday 24th February 10:27
Most seem to get to hate Squats, especially as the weight goes up because they are so exhausting and you have to dig really deep, more so at the bottom of the movement. For some (not you), it is more of a psychological hurdle, knowing what pain is to come..
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