The autism thread
Discussion
ian_c_uk said:
sparkyhx said:
Thats interesting cos my masking is entirely 'intellectual', i.e. I operatate what I call my 'spreadsheet' which tells me how to behave/respond in situations or when people say things etc i.e.
=vlookup(situation, A:B,2,False) if you know excel :-) i.e. 2 columns - Situation and Response, I search the list for the situation and respond according to whats in the response column. If the response proves to be incorrect, I add another row with a differentiator to the original situation and add the new response. If the situation is not in the list, I add another row completely.
I also use it to 'filter what I am saying', to adjust my language to be more acceptable, 'Thats crap' changes to 'that wasn't to my taste' etc.As part of this I rehearse everything I say in my head, before I say it. Whole conversations with multiple paths thru them are planned ahead.
Its this process that is so debilitating and tiring, and the reason I crash at the end of the day, or get things wrong when I'm tired, or caught unawares in a situation where I have to think on my feet very quickly because an interaction has gone outside the rehearsed scenarios.
Thankyou for sharing this Sparky, as it is hugely comforting to find others with the same approach! Mentally, I have cards with appropriate responses on the table and rapidly check them all in my mind to find the right one. With one person I can check my list quite easily, two or three is okay if I know them well, but a large group / meeting with colleagues is exhausting and can just leave me done for!=vlookup(situation, A:B,2,False) if you know excel :-) i.e. 2 columns - Situation and Response, I search the list for the situation and respond according to whats in the response column. If the response proves to be incorrect, I add another row with a differentiator to the original situation and add the new response. If the situation is not in the list, I add another row completely.
I also use it to 'filter what I am saying', to adjust my language to be more acceptable, 'Thats crap' changes to 'that wasn't to my taste' etc.As part of this I rehearse everything I say in my head, before I say it. Whole conversations with multiple paths thru them are planned ahead.
Its this process that is so debilitating and tiring, and the reason I crash at the end of the day, or get things wrong when I'm tired, or caught unawares in a situation where I have to think on my feet very quickly because an interaction has gone outside the rehearsed scenarios.
Planning conversations is helpful, and working in IT <checks profile, yep, thought so
> it's very similar to planning changes / fault finding / rollbacks, but no matter how many branched paths you think you have ready, people are hard to predict and will just ask something you were not ready for. Coupled with an inability to block out background noise, if a question wasn't what I was expecting, well, the response might not be what they were expecting either!I was diagnosed with ASD in 2020 and wrongly expected to receive the key to unlock the answers. I think I was hoping for "Aha, you're ASD type C7.a" and off I would go to research (in an overly obsessive way
) that type and find the information and techniques that would help me. Sadly that is not how the spectrum works, but I have found great strength in those sharing similar experiences (and confidence in sharing my own vulnerabilities) so wanted to say thankyou.
I do awareness training with my wife and business partner on Autism, both to people on the spectrum and also people working with people on the spectrum, medical, educational, parents, partners, social services etcpartners etc.
I love it when I'm explaining this stuff that other people suddenly realise they do the same thing and hadn't realised it. 'lightbulb' moments are great.
I loved your :-
ian_c_uk said:
if a question wasn't what I was expecting, well, the response might not be what they were expecting either!
...........................nail on the headI was doing one of the courses and there was a perfect example of this.
One of the other trainers was finishing off a section and I was mentally preparing for my section. the other trainer said 'Can you tell us about when xyz happened' which she knew I had had some experience of. I was caught totally off guard, my mind was on the delivery of the next section of the course. and i simply said 'no' quite bluntly after about 3 seconds. A couple of minutes later I was able to give a proper answer and also explain what had happened to the delegates and used it as a perfect example of what can happen as part of the course material I was delivering and there it was in cold hard reality, absolute class.
sparkyhx said:
...........................nail on the head
I was doing one of the courses and there was a perfect example of this.
One of the other trainers was finishing off a section and I was mentally preparing for my section. the other trainer said 'Can you tell us about when xyz happened' which she knew I had had some experience of. I was caught totally off guard, my mind was on the delivery of the next section of the course. and i simply said 'no' quite bluntly after about 3 seconds. A couple of minutes later I was able to give a proper answer and also explain what had happened to the delegates and used it as a perfect example of what can happen as part of the course material I was delivering and there it was in cold hard reality, absolute class.
That's very familiar. I've asked colleagues to give me self-complete questions, preferably in writing, but they still call and ask small portions of questions until I can tease the whole thing out if them, which is very frustrating. If they'd just give me the information up front they'd get better answers faster. I was doing one of the courses and there was a perfect example of this.
One of the other trainers was finishing off a section and I was mentally preparing for my section. the other trainer said 'Can you tell us about when xyz happened' which she knew I had had some experience of. I was caught totally off guard, my mind was on the delivery of the next section of the course. and i simply said 'no' quite bluntly after about 3 seconds. A couple of minutes later I was able to give a proper answer and also explain what had happened to the delegates and used it as a perfect example of what can happen as part of the course material I was delivering and there it was in cold hard reality, absolute class.
solo2 said:
blueg33 said:
My daughter has Asperger's. She wasn't diagnosed until she was 17 years and 6 months and the diagnosis came through interaction with CAMHS. Once she was 18 the "system" dropped her like a hot potato.
I think girls are good at hiding autism traits, especially high functioning ones.
There are lots of things my daughter cannot readily do, like manage her life, answer the door or phone, and these things have to be done for her.
My daughter wasn't diagnosed until she was 22 such the way girls do indeed mask it. She did say Adult mental health was better than CAMHS whose only job or ability is to make sure the kids make it to 18 where they are no longer their problem but better medication is then open to them at that age.I think girls are good at hiding autism traits, especially high functioning ones.
There are lots of things my daughter cannot readily do, like manage her life, answer the door or phone, and these things have to be done for her.
My son is now 18, diagnosed in January 2017 is struggling badly to get a job. He interviews so badly due to social issues. Making him feel worthless and wondering if this is his life now of no money due to no job. Made worse by the fact he has osteoporosis of the spine so cannot do heavy lifting/prolonged time on his feet which just about cuts out most minimum wage type jobs.
solo2 said:
My son has only gone and landed a job! Does not start for 2 months as it needs references etc etc but it's a job he has wanted for ages. I really hope this works out well for him given how few ASD people are in employment.
Tomorrow is his first day of two weeks training. I am dreading it going wrong, he would be broken and I worry therefore suicidal as if he can't hold this job down then I seriously doubt no job would be successful. I know I should not think about such things as he could be an absolute ace at this and it's in a field of one of his autistic interests so it does in theory bode well but who knows if he just innocently says the wrong thing and he's out.Fingers crossed everyone!
Not suggesting you haven't, but can you encourage him to be honest with them if he's getting overwhelmed at any point?
I've started to be confident of doing that, and it's made a big difference. No-one has refused me a break in a meeting, and it's helped me deal with the more crowded and noisy ones. Your son may, of course, be very different from me, but I think it's a fairly common theme for autistic people at work.
I've started to be confident of doing that, and it's made a big difference. No-one has refused me a break in a meeting, and it's helped me deal with the more crowded and noisy ones. Your son may, of course, be very different from me, but I think it's a fairly common theme for autistic people at work.
Sporky said:
Not suggesting you haven't, but can you encourage him to be honest with them if he's getting overwhelmed at any point?
No, don't do this. Don't give the impression autism is more of a problem than it already is. That said NT's will notice there is something amiss early on because all the masking in world can't hide autistic traits over a long period. The reality is autistics and the workplace don't mix, there is never a good outcome. tim jb said:
Sporky said:
Not suggesting you haven't, but can you encourage him to be honest with them if he's getting overwhelmed at any point?
No, don't do this. Don't give the impression autism is more of a problem than it already is. That said NT's will notice there is something amiss early on because all the masking in world can't hide autistic traits over a long period. The reality is autistics and the workplace don't mix, there is never a good outcome. My son will be in a Customer Services role, strange I know for an autistic person to be in a role where he will come into contact with the public. It will be for an airline and aviation is one of his passions without trying to be too identifying. I've been saying the last two months that he will get angry shouty people come up to him who are tired/hungry and just want to get to their destination and not to take it personally. He's been in that situation as he has hundreds of flights under his belt in the last few years so I've been instilling on him this is not personal, you are just the face of the company and they just want help.
He got there ok this morning, nice and early so I wait a report on who it is going so far, he is desparate to be a proud wearer of the uniform of this airline.
tim jb said:
Sporky said:
Not suggesting you haven't, but can you encourage him to be honest with them if he's getting overwhelmed at any point?
No, don't do this. Don't give the impression autism is more of a problem than it already is. That said NT's will notice there is something amiss early on because all the masking in world can't hide autistic traits over a long period. The reality is autistics and the workplace don't mix, there is never a good outcome. Autism isn't "a problem" if stress is managed. I've been continuously employed since I left uni 24 years ago, and I'm confident there are at least half a dozen more of us (out of about 160) where I work now.
Also, just for your reference, "autistics" isn't a word many of us use or like. The most preferred term seems to be "autistic people".
Edited by Sporky on Monday 4th March 16:26
I'm married, we met in 2000. My wife is also autistic, but no formal diagnosis. We both suspect ADHD too, which can hide (and be hidden by) autism.
Not much in the way of friends; some work chums, some dog-walking chums.
Full DSM-V diagnosis, in case you're wondering. At the debrief I was told that both clinical psychologists were certain in the first minute or so; the other four hours was testing the assumption and satisfying the clinical requirements,.
Not much in the way of friends; some work chums, some dog-walking chums.
Full DSM-V diagnosis, in case you're wondering. At the debrief I was told that both clinical psychologists were certain in the first minute or so; the other four hours was testing the assumption and satisfying the clinical requirements,.
Sporky said:
I'm married, we met in 2000. My wife is also autistic, but no formal diagnosis. We both suspect ADHD too, which can hide (and be hidden by) autism.
Not much in the way of friends; some work chums, some dog-walking chums.
Full DSM-V diagnosis, in case you're wondering. At the debrief I was told that both clinical psychologists were certain in the first minute or so; the other four hours was testing the assumption and satisfying the clinical requirements,.
I'm genuinely unsure how to reply!Not much in the way of friends; some work chums, some dog-walking chums.
Full DSM-V diagnosis, in case you're wondering. At the debrief I was told that both clinical psychologists were certain in the first minute or so; the other four hours was testing the assumption and satisfying the clinical requirements,.
There are outliers I guess.
As I said, there are probably another half a dozen out of 160 otr so where I work.
I'm pretty sure my dad was autistic, and he had a long successful career - ended up a financial director somewhere you've probably heard of.
I know a handful of people at customers who are autistic, and get on fine with working, but they are all at places that are genuine about diversity and inclusivity.
There are certainly autistic people who can't work. But current diagnosis rates - particularly now the medical profession has started to realise it's not just white men who are autistic - suggest there are a lot more of us hidden.
From my point of view, if my stress is managed - not zero, just managed - I am enormously productive. I outstrip the bottom three members of the team combined in measurable output, and last year I was just over 27% clear of the person in second place. With all due apologies for being entirely u humble about it.
Where it falls apart a bit is the social side. I can do it but it absolutely wears me out. We did a week at a trade show a month or do ago, with customers and/or suppliers for 14 hours a day, no decompression time. On the last night I ran out from dinner because I was completely overwhelmed and exhausted, I was on the verge if meltdown, and I was about to start saying very, very mean things to people who didn't deserve it.
But let me work from home unless I need to see a colleague of customer in person, let me skip most of the work socials, and let me know what's going to happen before it does, and I am genuinely a valuable employee. It only needs some small - one might say "reasonable" adjustments.
I'm pretty sure my dad was autistic, and he had a long successful career - ended up a financial director somewhere you've probably heard of.
I know a handful of people at customers who are autistic, and get on fine with working, but they are all at places that are genuine about diversity and inclusivity.
There are certainly autistic people who can't work. But current diagnosis rates - particularly now the medical profession has started to realise it's not just white men who are autistic - suggest there are a lot more of us hidden.
From my point of view, if my stress is managed - not zero, just managed - I am enormously productive. I outstrip the bottom three members of the team combined in measurable output, and last year I was just over 27% clear of the person in second place. With all due apologies for being entirely u humble about it.
Where it falls apart a bit is the social side. I can do it but it absolutely wears me out. We did a week at a trade show a month or do ago, with customers and/or suppliers for 14 hours a day, no decompression time. On the last night I ran out from dinner because I was completely overwhelmed and exhausted, I was on the verge if meltdown, and I was about to start saying very, very mean things to people who didn't deserve it.
But let me work from home unless I need to see a colleague of customer in person, let me skip most of the work socials, and let me know what's going to happen before it does, and I am genuinely a valuable employee. It only needs some small - one might say "reasonable" adjustments.
Sporky said:
From my point of view, if my stress is managed - not zero, just managed - I am enormously productive. I outstrip the bottom three members of the team combined in measurable output, and last year I was just over 27% clear of the person in second place. With all due apologies for being entirely u humble about it.
Where it falls apart a bit is the social side. I can do it but it absolutely wears me out. We did a week at a trade show a month or do ago, with customers and/or suppliers for 14 hours a day, no decompression time. On the last night I ran out from dinner because I was completely overwhelmed and exhausted, I was on the verge if meltdown, and I was about to start saying very, very mean things to people who didn't deserve it.
But let me work from home unless I need to see a colleague of customer in person, let me skip most of the work socials, and let me know what's going to happen before it does, and I am genuinely a valuable employee. It only needs some small - one might say "reasonable" adjustments.
This is pretty much me also (diagnosed ASD), I *can* do the social \ large meeting thing, but only for short periods and need "time to recharge, alone" in between. I'm fortunate that my "skills" are recognised to be of value, and my employer (appears to) value the positive side of my spiky profile whilst accepting the things where I struggle. Some days, I'm amazed that I am employed, let alone in the role and income I find myself with.Where it falls apart a bit is the social side. I can do it but it absolutely wears me out. We did a week at a trade show a month or do ago, with customers and/or suppliers for 14 hours a day, no decompression time. On the last night I ran out from dinner because I was completely overwhelmed and exhausted, I was on the verge if meltdown, and I was about to start saying very, very mean things to people who didn't deserve it.
But let me work from home unless I need to see a colleague of customer in person, let me skip most of the work socials, and let me know what's going to happen before it does, and I am genuinely a valuable employee. It only needs some small - one might say "reasonable" adjustments.
I'd also use the word "fortunate" when describing finding my amazing wife, who accepts everything that I am with good humour and relatively little eye rolling
We've been together over 27 years so maybe I have just worn her down. I don't have many friends beyond automotive circles, not because I feel I struggle, but because I just don't need friendship. It's not important to me, although I recognise (and try to accommodate) that it is important to others. The same goes for spending time with the rest of my family also!Incidentally, I am sure it has been discussed in this thread previously, but Chris Packham's two-part series on Autism has been shown again over the last two nights, and is available on iPlayer:
https://bbc.co.uk/autism
Whilst everyone with Autism is different, it's a valuable watch if you or anyone you regularly deal with is on the spectrum.
https://bbc.co.uk/autism
Whilst everyone with Autism is different, it's a valuable watch if you or anyone you regularly deal with is on the spectrum.
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