Sex after having kids
Discussion
Mont Blanc said:
I have read this thread and I am exasperated by your views, as are other posters.
You have to understand that right now, when you flirt with her, touch her, or suggest sex, she will see it as yet another thing that someone wants from her, and right now she is inundated with kids and everything else in life wanting something from her, which I am sure you are aware is utterly exhausting.
I don’t know why you can’t accept this or understand it.
One would suggest a very low level self awareness and ability to cognitively function above a certain level.You have to understand that right now, when you flirt with her, touch her, or suggest sex, she will see it as yet another thing that someone wants from her, and right now she is inundated with kids and everything else in life wanting something from her, which I am sure you are aware is utterly exhausting.
I don’t know why you can’t accept this or understand it.
CraigNewmarket said:
King David said:
Or, just possibly, it means that the experience of childbirth has changed then fundamentally. Nothing nefarious or manipulative, just a simple, innocent change.
If someone’s husband had an illness of the nether regions that resulted in 9 months of hormonal imbalance and then major trauma/surgery down there, it’s perfectly possible that he’d struggle to get it up for a long time after that.
Does that mean he never really loved his wife or should be forced to confront the fact that he’s ’failing her’ once a week?
I really think that the OP needs to understand that recovery from childbirth (physically, hormonally, mentally) is a long term process - measured in months and years.
Now is the time he should be laying a foundation for their future happiness. If he continues to force the issue then he is likely to make himself unattractive in her eyes and things will never improve.
I’m not saying there is anything wrong in wanting to have sex with your partner or bringing this desire up in conversation. I just think that right now is a time for empathy.
If in 2-3 years time you’re still having the same issues then it might be time to think about the counselling and consider if perhaps you’re no longer compatible as a couple.
It just makes me feel probably wrongly if she isn't putting effort in why should I. If we were dating we would have broken up by now. If my partner felt the same way I do now and I could fix it I would. If someone’s husband had an illness of the nether regions that resulted in 9 months of hormonal imbalance and then major trauma/surgery down there, it’s perfectly possible that he’d struggle to get it up for a long time after that.
Does that mean he never really loved his wife or should be forced to confront the fact that he’s ’failing her’ once a week?
I really think that the OP needs to understand that recovery from childbirth (physically, hormonally, mentally) is a long term process - measured in months and years.
Now is the time he should be laying a foundation for their future happiness. If he continues to force the issue then he is likely to make himself unattractive in her eyes and things will never improve.
I’m not saying there is anything wrong in wanting to have sex with your partner or bringing this desire up in conversation. I just think that right now is a time for empathy.
If in 2-3 years time you’re still having the same issues then it might be time to think about the counselling and consider if perhaps you’re no longer compatible as a couple.
She never asks how I am or how I'm feeling.
Any attempts to be flirty or cheeky just gets knocked back or ignored. It wouldn't bother me as much if she said something like I know it crap now but it won't be forever but I get nothing. Just feel like I'm not getting any younger and life's just passing me by and I'm spending it been unhappy and the only option is to cling on and hope things improve.
If you get married you will vow to supporting and respecting her in sickness and in health (or words to that effect). This right now, is the sickness part of that.
She never asks how you're doing because she can't handle the emotional weight of being told that you're feeling bad because of her.
It's on you to understand that your life has changed. You priority and her priority is the health and happiness of you child. Only once that is secure can you focus on yourselves.
She understands that. If you focus you attention on carrying your share of the burden then she'll have a lot more availability to start thinking about the other stuff.
Speed Badger said:
I've been following this thread since it started, and without going back through all 33 pages - OP did you actually sit down with her and ask why she doesn't want sex, or how she feels? I can't remember if you've simply asked her why.
For much of the reasons King David has expressed so well, it's too late for that now.Anything he says or does will be seen as pressure. He could clean the house, take the kids for the day, cook dinner, and run her a bath; none of which she'll fully enjoy or appreciate, as she'll be seeing it all as a lead up to wanting sex. Even worse, she'll then be put in the position of feeling guilty for him doing all those things while she feels unable to reciprocate.
It's the right thought, but that ship has long since sailed, and so trying to jump aboard now just makes things worse. Best he can do is focus on work, hobbies, the kids, pretty much anything but sex, and hope the she moves closer to him of her own accord, rather than trying to pull her towards him.
Unfortunately he's dug himself a deep hole and needs to stop digging and start filling it in again, if there's any chance of making things work. Plenty of posters have told him how to do that, whilst still recognising that it's natural for him to feel somewhat frustrated. The reality is that one has to act according to what's most likely to achieve the desired result, and sometimes that's not in accordance with how you feel.
CraigNewmarket said:
It just makes me feel probably wrongly if she isn't putting effort in why should I. If we were dating we would have broken up by now. If my partner felt the same way I do now and I could fix it I would.
She never asks how I am or how I'm feeling.
Any attempts to be flirty or cheeky just gets knocked back or ignored. It wouldn't bother me as much if she said something like I know it crap now but it won't be forever but I get nothing. Just feel like I'm not getting any younger and life's just passing me by and I'm spending it been unhappy and the only option is to cling on and hope things improve.
I still find it mystifying that your sole foundation of being happy is whether you're having regular sex or not. She never asks how I am or how I'm feeling.
Any attempts to be flirty or cheeky just gets knocked back or ignored. It wouldn't bother me as much if she said something like I know it crap now but it won't be forever but I get nothing. Just feel like I'm not getting any younger and life's just passing me by and I'm spending it been unhappy and the only option is to cling on and hope things improve.
Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
Muzzer79 said:
I still find it mystifying that your sole foundation of being happy is whether you're having regular sex or not.
Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
It's not about the physical act its about the connection and not feeling rejected and alone by the very person who is supposed be the one person I can rely for anything. Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
The happiest part of my life has been with her which is why I got engaged to her. Now it feels a million miles away from that day.
CraigNewmarket said:
Muzzer79 said:
I still find it mystifying that your sole foundation of being happy is whether you're having regular sex or not.
Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
It's not about the physical act its about the connection and not feeling rejected and alone by the very person who is supposed be the one person I can rely on for anything. Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
The happiest part of my life has been with her which is why I got engaged to her. Now it feels a million miles away from that day.
It's not that she can't satisfy my sex drive, it feels like she can't be bothered and doesn't care. She could if she wanted too.
CraigNewmarket said:
Muzzer79 said:
I still find it mystifying that your sole foundation of being happy is whether you're having regular sex or not.
Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
It's not about the physical act its about the connection and not feeling rejected and alone by the very person who is supposed be the one person I can rely for anything. Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
The happiest part of my life has been with her which is why I got engaged to her. Now it feels a million miles away from that day.
Forget all about sex and focus on connection.
Get some babysitting sorted and go out for a date. Send her text half way through the day to tell her you miss her. By her favourite chocolate bar next time you stop for petrol on the way home.
Do that and when the fog does finally clear for her (and it will) she’ll love you more than she ever did before kids.
Edited to add: for the love of God, don’t follow this acts up with a request for your weekly tumble!!!
CraigNewmarket said:
It's not about the physical act its about the connection and not feeling rejected and alone by the very person who is supposed be the one person I can rely on for anything.
The happiest part of my life has been with her which is why I got engaged to her. Now it feels a million miles away from that day.
It's not that she can't satisfy my sex drive, it feels like she can't be bothered and doesn't care. She could if she wanted too.
It's not about the physical act but in the same breath you say she can't be bothered to satisfy your sex drive.The happiest part of my life has been with her which is why I got engaged to her. Now it feels a million miles away from that day.
It's not that she can't satisfy my sex drive, it feels like she can't be bothered and doesn't care. She could if she wanted too.
Based on your postings I can't say I blame her. Have you not read any of the advice that has been posted?
CraigNewmarket said:
It just makes me feel probably wrongly if she isn't putting effort in why should I. If we were dating we would have broken up by now. If my partner felt the same way I do now and I could fix it I would.
She never asks how I am or how I'm feeling.
Any attempts to be flirty or cheeky just gets knocked back or ignored. It wouldn't bother me as much if she said something like I know it crap now but it won't be forever but I get nothing. Just feel like I'm not getting any younger and life's just passing me by and I'm spending it been unhappy and the only option is to cling on and hope things improve.
There’s a lot of words here but it reads a bit like me me me me me. She never asks how I am or how I'm feeling.
Any attempts to be flirty or cheeky just gets knocked back or ignored. It wouldn't bother me as much if she said something like I know it crap now but it won't be forever but I get nothing. Just feel like I'm not getting any younger and life's just passing me by and I'm spending it been unhappy and the only option is to cling on and hope things improve.
You’re in a marriage. You have children. You’re not dating her, you married her. If you thought your relationship would remain the same through all of this then you were naive on the extreme.
CraigNewmarket said:
It's not about the physical act its about the connection and not feeling rejected and alone by the very person who is supposed be the one person I can rely for anything.
Has it not occured to you that she might have felt the same way too, and that you are the very person who she is supposed to rely on for everything, including support, empathy, understanding and patience when she's unable to cope with certain things. In that regard, from her point of view, you've let her down at the very time she needs it most.The fact that you require sex in order to feel a connnection quite naturally feels rejecting to you. Equally though, putting that ahead of what she's repeatedly said are her needs, is invalidating of her feelings. As such, whilst you see sex as a connection, she sees your present need for it as a rejection of her and her needs. Emotions are complex, and the things you're doing to try and create a connection are the very things that are tearing it apart.
I've said this elsewhere, but for any agreement or negotiation to succeed, you first need to understand and validate the other point of view, even if you don't agree with it, or don't like it. Until you can do that, then no amount of stating your side of things will make a difference. In fact stating it doesn't really matter as, if you do the former, you can far more easily work out best way to get what you want, without even having to say it.
QJumper said:
Has it not occured to you that she might have felt the same way too, and that you are the very person who she is supposed to rely on for everything, including support, empathy, understanding and patience when she's unable to cope with certain things. In that regard, from her point of view, you've let her down at the very time she needs it most.
The fact that you require sex in order to feel a connnection quite naturally feels rejecting to you. Equally though, putting that ahead of what she's repeatedly said are her needs, is invalidating of her feelings. As such, whilst you see sex as a connection, she sees your present need for it as a rejection of her and her needs. Emotions are complex, and the things you're doing to try and create a connection are the very things that are tearing it apart.
I've said this elsewhere, but for any agreement or negotiation to succeed, you first need to understand and validate the other point of view, even if you don't agree with it, or don't like it. Until you can do that, then no amount of stating your side of things will make a difference. In fact stating it doesn't really matter as, if you do the former, you can far more easily work out best way to get what you want, without even having to say it.
The fact that you require sex in order to feel a connnection quite naturally feels rejecting to you. Equally though, putting that ahead of what she's repeatedly said are her needs, is invalidating of her feelings. As such, whilst you see sex as a connection, she sees your present need for it as a rejection of her and her needs. Emotions are complex, and the things you're doing to try and create a connection are the very things that are tearing it apart.
I've said this elsewhere, but for any agreement or negotiation to succeed, you first need to understand and validate the other point of view, even if you don't agree with it, or don't like it. Until you can do that, then no amount of stating your side of things will make a difference. In fact stating it doesn't really matter as, if you do the former, you can far more easily work out best way to get what you want, without even having to say it.
And ironically the more he bangs on about sex the less likely he is to get any.OP theres a lot of poor advice here from what must be some seriously sex starved guys!
Sex is a key component in a relationship and if its missing there is something wrong. Simple. You are 100% in the right here.
Have you had counselling? There IS something not right you are not at all in any way being selfish for tending to this aspect of your relationship. Its the cement of a relationship. You can make your Mrs laugh you can avoid putting clothes on the floor and even do the dishwasher but its not enough. In the end they they all need plugging just as much as you want to do the plugging.
My worry in this scenario quite seriously would be that someone else is fulfilling this particular need. I would at least ask the question. Ask her whats going on. Don't be scared of the answer it might save 10 miserable years if it can't be resolved.
I have been with Mrs FP for a long long time we have 3 kids and never had a dry spell so to speak. I think we were up and running within about 4 weeks or her having twins it was business a usual. Yes there are scenarios where the appetite might go off but really the most common thing would be getting it somewhere else sadly.
Sex is a key component in a relationship and if its missing there is something wrong. Simple. You are 100% in the right here.
Have you had counselling? There IS something not right you are not at all in any way being selfish for tending to this aspect of your relationship. Its the cement of a relationship. You can make your Mrs laugh you can avoid putting clothes on the floor and even do the dishwasher but its not enough. In the end they they all need plugging just as much as you want to do the plugging.
My worry in this scenario quite seriously would be that someone else is fulfilling this particular need. I would at least ask the question. Ask her whats going on. Don't be scared of the answer it might save 10 miserable years if it can't be resolved.
I have been with Mrs FP for a long long time we have 3 kids and never had a dry spell so to speak. I think we were up and running within about 4 weeks or her having twins it was business a usual. Yes there are scenarios where the appetite might go off but really the most common thing would be getting it somewhere else sadly.
Edited by fridaypassion on Wednesday 13th December 19:22
fridaypassion said:
OP theres a lot of poor advice here from what must be some seriously sex starved guys!
Sex is a key component in a relationship and if its missing there is something wrong. Simple. You are 100% in the right here.
Have you had counselling? There IS something not right you are not at all in any way being selfish for tending to this aspect of your relationship. Its the cement of a relationship. You can make your Mrs laugh you can avoid putting clothes on the floor and even do the dishwasher but its not enough. In the end they they all need plugging just as much as you want to do the plugging.
My worry in this scenario quite seriously would be that someone else is fulfilling this particular need. I would at least ask the question. Ask her whats going on. Don't be scared of the answer it might save 10 miserable years if it can't be resolved.
I have been with Mrs FP for a long long time we have 3 kids and never had a dry spell so to speak. I think we were up and running within about 4 weeks or her having twins it was business a usual. Yes there are scenarios where the appetite might go off but really the most common thing would be getting it somewhere else sadly.
And one of the most common reasons for getting it somewhere else is a needy and demanding partner.Sex is a key component in a relationship and if its missing there is something wrong. Simple. You are 100% in the right here.
Have you had counselling? There IS something not right you are not at all in any way being selfish for tending to this aspect of your relationship. Its the cement of a relationship. You can make your Mrs laugh you can avoid putting clothes on the floor and even do the dishwasher but its not enough. In the end they they all need plugging just as much as you want to do the plugging.
My worry in this scenario quite seriously would be that someone else is fulfilling this particular need. I would at least ask the question. Ask her whats going on. Don't be scared of the answer it might save 10 miserable years if it can't be resolved.
I have been with Mrs FP for a long long time we have 3 kids and never had a dry spell so to speak. I think we were up and running within about 4 weeks or her having twins it was business a usual. Yes there are scenarios where the appetite might go off but really the most common thing would be getting it somewhere else sadly.
Edited by fridaypassion on Wednesday 13th December 19:22
No one saying that sex isn't an important part of a relationship, or that he's wrong to want it. Mostly what people are saying is that he's going about it the wrong way.
I mean, if I put my foot on the gas, it means i want to go forwards. I'm right to want to go forwards, and it's a necessary part of my journey. However, if I'm stuck in mud, then no amount of putting my foot down will get me to where I want to be. If anything it just makes my situation worse. So, no matter how right I am in what I want, and no matter how much I might prefer not to, sometimes I have to go in reverse a little before I can move forwards again, and get to where I want.
That's the crux of much of the advice being given.
fridaypassion said:
I would at least ask the question. Ask her whats going on.
That is absolutely the very last thing he should do.If there isn't anything going on she will be deeply offended and feel even more pressured, and if there is she wouldn't tell him the truth anyway. It's lose lose, by doing that. Ask me how I know.
king arthur said:
That is absolutely the very last thing he should do.
If there isn't anything going on she will be deeply offended and feel even more pressured, and if there is she wouldn't tell him the truth anyway. It's lose lose, by doing that. Ask me how I know.
It was Guinevere and that Lancelot chap, wasn't it? If there isn't anything going on she will be deeply offended and feel even more pressured, and if there is she wouldn't tell him the truth anyway. It's lose lose, by doing that. Ask me how I know.
CraigNewmarket said:
Muzzer79 said:
I still find it mystifying that your sole foundation of being happy is whether you're having regular sex or not.
Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
It's not about the physical act its about the connection and not feeling rejected and alone by the very person who is supposed be the one person I can rely on for anything. Sure, it's a very important thing but if you can't survive without it for a while, that suggests a problem.
If she asked you how you were or how you're feeling, what would you say?
I bet a tenner you'd say
"Fine, but I want to have sex more"
You think she doesn't know that? You think she doesn't probably feel guilty about it?
Yet your attitude seems to be that she should therefore sacrifice herself and satisfy your needs to demonstrate her affection and keep you happy.
If it bothers you that much, leave her - find someone else. When your kid is 18 and asks why you left him as an infant, explain that it's because his Mum couldn't satisfy your sex drive and then see how you feel.
The happiest part of my life has been with her which is why I got engaged to her. Now it feels a million miles away from that day.
It's not that she can't satisfy my sex drive, it feels like she can't be bothered and doesn't care. She could if she wanted too.
You seem to equate affection = sex and nothing else.
You are pressuring her all the time, hence her reluctance to be even playful with you because you’ll then step on the gas and try to initiate sex.
If you want to get back to normal with her, you need to both get to the stage where there’s no pressure. You should then get your affection and feel less alone, sex should then follow naturally.
If she refuses to even give you affection, without the pressure of sex, that’s a more serious matter which you need to get to the root of.
king arthur said:
That is absolutely the very last thing he should do.
If there isn't anything going on she will be deeply offended and feel even more pressured, and if there is she wouldn't tell him the truth anyway. It's lose lose, by doing that. Ask me how I know.
Its communication thought isn't it? If something is bothering you then you should discuss it with your partner. Obviously it requires some sensitivity and timing but why should the OP be unhappy? Its a two way street and she is not fulfilling her part of the arrangement currently. If there isn't anything going on she will be deeply offended and feel even more pressured, and if there is she wouldn't tell him the truth anyway. It's lose lose, by doing that. Ask me how I know.
I think Craig deserves a bit of empathy because it's clear from the tone of his posts that he's venting all the frustration and needs some support. I'm sure he's realising the harsh reality of life as a man that essentially you're only valued for what you can do and provide and you're not going to get much sympathy from the public when things go wromg. If this was a woman reporting the same issues on a female-centric forum, the responses would be more supportive and almost no one would call her selfish.
As a man it is perfectly normal to expect sex as part of a committed and monogamous relationship and the posters they are shaming him for desiring it are completely wrong. The issue is that he's going about it in the worst way possible and pushing his partner away and causing further resentment. In essence Craig just needs to stop sulking (noting that the only person interested in his sob stories is probably his mum) and put on his big-boy pants and take control of his own destiny. If he's not getting sex at home then he needs to make sure he is a man that women would want to have sex with. First step is not appearing weak, desperate or giving the impression that they control all your access to sex and happiness. You'll find that women are quite in tune to social cues and pressures and are much more attracted to men that other women find attractive. So maximise your success in other areas of your life that bring you happiness e.g. going to the gym, hobbies, sports, travel, bonding with your kid etc and build a much more wholesome existence and realise that there's more to a happy life than tying your self esteem to just this woman. Once you've invested in those things I bet you won't have a problem finding someone that desires you
It might be too late to flip the switch of desire back on with his partner as women can be ruthless with these things when they find men unattractive/repulsive (kids nowadays call it the "ick").
Best of luck and take all I said above with a pinch of salt as I'm currently a few too many drinks into a work Christmas party and waiting for the the dreaded rail replacement bus home
As a man it is perfectly normal to expect sex as part of a committed and monogamous relationship and the posters they are shaming him for desiring it are completely wrong. The issue is that he's going about it in the worst way possible and pushing his partner away and causing further resentment. In essence Craig just needs to stop sulking (noting that the only person interested in his sob stories is probably his mum) and put on his big-boy pants and take control of his own destiny. If he's not getting sex at home then he needs to make sure he is a man that women would want to have sex with. First step is not appearing weak, desperate or giving the impression that they control all your access to sex and happiness. You'll find that women are quite in tune to social cues and pressures and are much more attracted to men that other women find attractive. So maximise your success in other areas of your life that bring you happiness e.g. going to the gym, hobbies, sports, travel, bonding with your kid etc and build a much more wholesome existence and realise that there's more to a happy life than tying your self esteem to just this woman. Once you've invested in those things I bet you won't have a problem finding someone that desires you
It might be too late to flip the switch of desire back on with his partner as women can be ruthless with these things when they find men unattractive/repulsive (kids nowadays call it the "ick").
Best of luck and take all I said above with a pinch of salt as I'm currently a few too many drinks into a work Christmas party and waiting for the the dreaded rail replacement bus home
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