anyone a parent of a girl with ADD / ADHD?
Discussion
Ezra said:
Your profile states "Listen to who shouts the loudest, not who knows the most"
That's exactly what is happening with ADD/ADHD etc. It is seemingly everywhere, and an excuse for everything. You and me will simply have to agree to disagree on this.
Sometimes the subtlety lets me revel in the irony. That's exactly what is happening with ADD/ADHD etc. It is seemingly everywhere, and an excuse for everything. You and me will simply have to agree to disagree on this.
This is a good little sketch which should be a starting point that having ADHD isn’t fun and isnt something to pick and choose.
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeSWKYqo/
Edited by roscopervis on Saturday 17th February 18:10
"I do think that the flu is way over diagnosed, I worry that we are bringing people up to be victims and think they are unwell. Everyone gets a snuffly nose from time to time. isn't it really just a bad cold? Everyone is a little bit on the flu spectrum. There is a danger that oversubscribe decongestants and analgesics, and whilst they may bring genuine flu sufferers relief from their illness, what about the effect on people who just have colds? We mustn't medicalise everything. Children need to grow up to be able to blow their own noses and deal with aches and pains, even if they happen every single day and disrupt their ability to have an acceptable standard of living"
Edited by PlywoodPascal on Monday 19th February 10:04
My 17yo daughter had a rough time through covid which resulted in her refusing to go to school. We got her some counselling to help with it and after a few sessions they asked if she had ever been assessed for ADHD.
We started some research and looking into it further it certainly raised a few questions with her behaviour through childhood more so once she got to high school.
She’s never been academic but high school there were signs of her struggling school(private) never seemed concerned as she was an excellent pupil but when it came to focusing for exams she found it tough and results were never as good as she had hoped.
She got an ADHD assessment this year which came back as she wasn’t ADHD but she had traits. Seems to be a tricky thing in girls to assess, with our daughter her inability to focus on certain things especially on things she didn’t want to do also she can anxious when things change from her routine were the main stand outs.
I was pretty convinced she was going to be ADHD( I was also questioning if I was as well!) the whole process I think has been a big help with her working out who she is and how she can help her self in certain situations. The psychiatrist was excellent all the way through the assessment and has really helped her focus on the next stage in her life and doing what she enjoys doing and not being too hung up on exam results.
We started some research and looking into it further it certainly raised a few questions with her behaviour through childhood more so once she got to high school.
She’s never been academic but high school there were signs of her struggling school(private) never seemed concerned as she was an excellent pupil but when it came to focusing for exams she found it tough and results were never as good as she had hoped.
She got an ADHD assessment this year which came back as she wasn’t ADHD but she had traits. Seems to be a tricky thing in girls to assess, with our daughter her inability to focus on certain things especially on things she didn’t want to do also she can anxious when things change from her routine were the main stand outs.
I was pretty convinced she was going to be ADHD( I was also questioning if I was as well!) the whole process I think has been a big help with her working out who she is and how she can help her self in certain situations. The psychiatrist was excellent all the way through the assessment and has really helped her focus on the next stage in her life and doing what she enjoys doing and not being too hung up on exam results.
roscopervis said:
I unfortunately think you’re way behind the times. Firstly, it’s not ADD/ADHD, it’s just ADHD, and anyone who uses ADD shows how old their learning is...
In January 2023 our Consultant Psychiatrist wrote that my son has "Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)". I will inform him of his mistake.roscopervis said:
Ezra said:
I do think that the ADHD/ADD/Autism thing is massively over-prescribed. My wife's sister is a high school teacher in a regular state school. She says about 25% of kids there have some kind of diagnosis, most on some form of medication. That's an isolated example I'm aware of but, nonetheless, that's absurd. Rod Liddle in last weeks Spectator did a piece about this too. I feels it's massively overdone, even for kids that get slightly distracted for a few mins in lessons. Despite our experience with our daughter, I remain very sceptical about any ADHD/ADD/Autism labelling.
I unfortunately think you’re way behind the times. Firstly, it’s not ADD/ADHD, it’s just ADHD, and anyone who uses ADD shows how old their learning is.Edited by Ezra on Wednesday 14th February 11:49
Secondly, in years gone by neurodivergence - ASD, ADHD, Dyslexia etc. was very underdiagnosed. With an increase in understanding, this has resulted in an increase in obvious symptoms and as a result, diagnoses. 25% isn’t an unreasonable approximation for the neurodivergent population as a whole. Who knows someone in their 30’s or 40’s who went through their entire education without even a hint of a neurodiversity diagnosis, yet have recently found out they have ASD or ADHD? Lots of people I bet, or maybe even you?
Just because there are lots of people seemingly with it, doesn’t mean that it’s overprescribed or overlabelled, it just means that society is slowly catching up with the reality of neurodiversity and it’s slowly coming into focus just how many people struggle with the neurotypical systems and processes that don’t work for a large proportion of the population.
It is slow though, most medical professionals still have outdated and prejudicial knowledge of the subject. Treating the issue is always better than not and it doesn’t always have to be medication. Untreated can lead to depression, anxiety and other mental health issues. So ignore the fear of the label and embrace the talents and abilities that it brings.
And then some people are in the middle…?
Ie. Everyone is something.
Is the remedy then to give pills to kids who don’t fit the school model?
Or should the remedy to look at how school doesn’t fit how people’s brains/minds work, and change it to be fairer, or allow people to find unique grooves and be assessed on their merits generally, rather than how they fit the “model” assessments?
So yes you’re right. We’ve all likely got something. But it’s made a functioning society hasn’t it?
I had a dyslexic friend at school who struggled with school a bit, but as soon as he was out of school he’s done well for himself, has a good career, wife, kids etc.
Had he had opportunities like joinery/woodworking/building/apprenticeships at school, that fitted with what he liked and could focus his attention on, he’d have likely “looked” fine.
I think society always accepted neurodiversity. It’s just the big wigs made it a label, tried fixing it with pills, then realised in actual fact it’s just a force of nature… not an error to be corrected, but the natural mental palettes of reality.
There is no issue… maybe at the very extremes… but to see most classrooms with kids on pills is utterly stupid.
Likely a result of environments encouraging a lack of focus and enhancing symptoms, while also having a school system that’s now so high pressure and stressful that it’s bifurcating students into those with ‘exam’ brains and those without the focus to excel at exams.
Pills of most varieties should be chucked in the bin.
They’re great if you believe symptoms of some kind of abuse should be treated with pills, rather than resolving the abuse.
Mr Whippy said:
So if 25% of people have it, and it holds them back in a school environment/structure at the extreme, then others have the opposite and benefit at the other end of the scale.
And then some people are in the middle…?
Ie. Everyone is something.
Is the remedy then to give pills to kids who don’t fit the school model?
Or should the remedy to look at how school doesn’t fit how people’s brains/minds work, and change it to be fairer, or allow people to find unique grooves and be assessed on their merits generally, rather than how they fit the “model” assessments?
So yes you’re right. We’ve all likely got something. But it’s made a functioning society hasn’t it?
I had a dyslexic friend at school who struggled with school a bit, but as soon as he was out of school he’s done well for himself, has a good career, wife, kids etc.
Had he had opportunities like joinery/woodworking/building/apprenticeships at school, that fitted with what he liked and could focus his attention on, he’d have likely “looked” fine.
I think society always accepted neurodiversity. It’s just the big wigs made it a label, tried fixing it with pills, then realised in actual fact it’s just a force of nature… not an error to be corrected, but the natural mental palettes of reality.
There is no issue… maybe at the very extremes… but to see most classrooms with kids on pills is utterly stupid.
Likely a result of environments encouraging a lack of focus and enhancing symptoms, while also having a school system that’s now so high pressure and stressful that it’s bifurcating students into those with ‘exam’ brains and those without the focus to excel at exams.
Pills of most varieties should be chucked in the bin.
They’re great if you believe symptoms of some kind of abuse should be treated with pills, rather than resolving the abuse.
I would guess that 25% have a neurodiversity not ADHD. As some have said, this is a spectrum, with some able to cope and excel, others would be highly disadvantaged by the school system.And then some people are in the middle…?
Ie. Everyone is something.
Is the remedy then to give pills to kids who don’t fit the school model?
Or should the remedy to look at how school doesn’t fit how people’s brains/minds work, and change it to be fairer, or allow people to find unique grooves and be assessed on their merits generally, rather than how they fit the “model” assessments?
So yes you’re right. We’ve all likely got something. But it’s made a functioning society hasn’t it?
I had a dyslexic friend at school who struggled with school a bit, but as soon as he was out of school he’s done well for himself, has a good career, wife, kids etc.
Had he had opportunities like joinery/woodworking/building/apprenticeships at school, that fitted with what he liked and could focus his attention on, he’d have likely “looked” fine.
I think society always accepted neurodiversity. It’s just the big wigs made it a label, tried fixing it with pills, then realised in actual fact it’s just a force of nature… not an error to be corrected, but the natural mental palettes of reality.
There is no issue… maybe at the very extremes… but to see most classrooms with kids on pills is utterly stupid.
Likely a result of environments encouraging a lack of focus and enhancing symptoms, while also having a school system that’s now so high pressure and stressful that it’s bifurcating students into those with ‘exam’ brains and those without the focus to excel at exams.
Pills of most varieties should be chucked in the bin.
They’re great if you believe symptoms of some kind of abuse should be treated with pills, rather than resolving the abuse.
Not all neurodiversity is treated by pills, but all should be treated with respect and identified. When identified, the specific treatment course should be offered based on what has been diagnosed. With ADHD specifically, given that it is a deficit of dopamine and norepinephrine both in terms of the chemicals and the effectiveness of the receptors, stimulant medication is easily the most effective medication for helping treat ADHD. However, it isn’t just a case of ‘give them pills and that’s it’, the patient also needs to be supported with appropriate counselling, accommodations as they still have ADHD, just perhaps less manifestly.
Schools are typically aimed at neurotypical students - sit still, be quiet, follow arbitrary rules in an environment that is typically ruled over by the politics of the coolest kids and with most teachers not understanding why some kids will be frustrated, angry and withdrawn. This is difficult for even the most adaptive neurodiverse student.
Society functions, but could it be better? Yes. Society’s big institutions are very contradictory and generally unwelcoming to neurodiversity and ADHD. If there was more understanding of it, then, this would help greatly.
Many people, with the right opportunities can excel, utilising their skill set and neurodiversity to do well. For all the success stories, there are far more stories of long term big life problems for such people. Addiction, interest based motivation system, impulsive behaviour…the list goes on, makes it more likely that ADHD sufferers will not hold down a steady job, have money issues and be involved with crime. Go further back in time, such traits were potentially benefits for a subset of a population. In a more modern society, these traits are much less desirable.
There is a problem, but I see it as the environments magnifying the biological condition. With ADHD specifically, pills are not necessarily needed, but they are the best way to help balance the chemicals that are deficient in the brains of such people. Yes, schools in the UK are too high pressure and shouldn’t place such academic pressure on students who are more practical, but ADHD students can be particularly academic and being medicated can help with focus and help them achieve the clarity needed to revise and complete tasks that require lots of executive function. The chucking the pills in the bin idea isn’t something that you would advise to someone who needs antibiotics, or needed diabetes medication; just because it’s a mental health condition that you don’t understand, you shouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.
should ADHD be treated?
about 25% of adults in prison have ADHD vs 2.5% in the general population.
university students with ADHD have about double the normal rate of suicide ideation than undiagnosed/'normal' students (45% vs 22%) and more than double the rate of suicide attempts.
One quarter of women with ADHD have tried to take their own life. (23.5% vs 3.3% without ADHD [7.8 times])
One in ten men with ADHD have tried to take their own life (8.5% vs 2.1%v [4 times])
I'd love it if we could re-engineer society so those outcomes were better. I think we can, too. But I know that will take a lot of time, lifetimes I would expect, and that until we did it, there'd be a lot of misery that could easily be at least partially ameliorated by simple pharmaceutical improvements.
I like having ADHD, life is fun, extreme, exciting, but also horrible and stressful and frustrating. I say that as to be honest a very successful professional, who got 20 years into a career before anything much was a challenge and my characteristics started to slow my progress and undermine my success as much they are accelerated and led to it. When it gets hard, it gets hard... and treatment (and the self knowledge that comes with the diagnosis, too, to be fair) has made a big difference.
about 25% of adults in prison have ADHD vs 2.5% in the general population.
university students with ADHD have about double the normal rate of suicide ideation than undiagnosed/'normal' students (45% vs 22%) and more than double the rate of suicide attempts.
One quarter of women with ADHD have tried to take their own life. (23.5% vs 3.3% without ADHD [7.8 times])
One in ten men with ADHD have tried to take their own life (8.5% vs 2.1%v [4 times])
I'd love it if we could re-engineer society so those outcomes were better. I think we can, too. But I know that will take a lot of time, lifetimes I would expect, and that until we did it, there'd be a lot of misery that could easily be at least partially ameliorated by simple pharmaceutical improvements.
I like having ADHD, life is fun, extreme, exciting, but also horrible and stressful and frustrating. I say that as to be honest a very successful professional, who got 20 years into a career before anything much was a challenge and my characteristics started to slow my progress and undermine my success as much they are accelerated and led to it. When it gets hard, it gets hard... and treatment (and the self knowledge that comes with the diagnosis, too, to be fair) has made a big difference.
I worry how these humans evolved, created societies and civilisations, optimised them for certain brain types, then made those evolved in an “unoptimised” way for that society need to take man-made pills to ‘fit in’
This is exactly the wrong way to go, for the broad majority.
I also wonder how muting certain characteristics with drugs, or calling the brain chemistry deficient in certain ways, leads us to real acceptance of natures diversity?
We argue diversity is king, but then go drugging diversity out of society?
It’s akin to the eugenics of the early 20th century…
For what it’s worth, I’d say from what people on here say that I’m adhd of done variety.
I’ve always struggled to have a real focus and purpose.
Once I can do something to a certain level I want a new challenge.
I’ve had a bunch of ‘careers’ often forged through interests/hobbies, rather than through academic stepping stones.
The concept of picking your life at 16, to pick the right a levels, to pick the right degree, etc etc, to get where you want to be, felt utterly daft, but I went through it, buggered it up, got it wrong, etc.
But I’m totally cool with that. I love the fact I’ve not made it into the £250k salary club and just do what takes my fancy.
I’ve had such diverse income streams, experiences, clients, projects, I’ve genuinely had the time of my life and wouldn’t change it.
To see it as a crutch rather than a gift is to devalue your entire natural self.
That is the beginning of mental illness… to reduce/judge yourself to fit in with others expectations.
This is exactly the wrong way to go, for the broad majority.
I also wonder how muting certain characteristics with drugs, or calling the brain chemistry deficient in certain ways, leads us to real acceptance of natures diversity?
We argue diversity is king, but then go drugging diversity out of society?
It’s akin to the eugenics of the early 20th century…
For what it’s worth, I’d say from what people on here say that I’m adhd of done variety.
I’ve always struggled to have a real focus and purpose.
Once I can do something to a certain level I want a new challenge.
I’ve had a bunch of ‘careers’ often forged through interests/hobbies, rather than through academic stepping stones.
The concept of picking your life at 16, to pick the right a levels, to pick the right degree, etc etc, to get where you want to be, felt utterly daft, but I went through it, buggered it up, got it wrong, etc.
But I’m totally cool with that. I love the fact I’ve not made it into the £250k salary club and just do what takes my fancy.
I’ve had such diverse income streams, experiences, clients, projects, I’ve genuinely had the time of my life and wouldn’t change it.
To see it as a crutch rather than a gift is to devalue your entire natural self.
That is the beginning of mental illness… to reduce/judge yourself to fit in with others expectations.
Sporky said:
popeyewhite said:
It's very dubious as a diagnosis and on any given day I suspect many on here including myself would fail/pass/whatever a psychometric autistic spectrum test.
That simply isn't true. The diagnosis process is long and fairly gruelling, and while there are lots of questions you can't fake it to the extent that you'd fool two (or more) clinical psychogists who are following the diagnostic process. It's not just the answers, it's how you answer.If you're not autistic you might be able to answer the AQ10 to get a referral, but you wouldn't make it through the initial screening interview, let alone the full assessment process.
Whilst I know enough to probably be able to fake the whole diagnosis (if I wasn't already), why would I do that? The same could be said of any 'diagnosis' of an illness/condition/syndrome that does not have a physical/chemical marker, given the right level of knowledge it could be faked.......but that in itself is a sign of some other bigger problem e.g. munchauzens.
....Its far more common to NOT get a diagnosis, because you 'mask' during the diagnostic process, hence why girls can get missed, because of their better masking abilities. My wife sees people who fill in the various 'questionnaires' and gets conflicting results, but in 'interview' and probing the inconsistencies it becomes obvious why that has happened and she sometimes gets them to 'redo' and be honest from their true self. But the overlaps between ADHD/ADD and BPD and differentiating between those is where the real skill comes in.
ADHD diagnosis involves parents input as well,
OP - there are already a few ADHD and autism threads on here that might help
ADHD - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Autism - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
JimmyConwayNW said:
Had contact from school in the last couple of weeks.
Going down the independent route of having assessments don’t to establish an additional need as something is holding Y4 daughter back.
Seems like we have been a step forward and then a few back on this educational journey but things keep coming back to this point so be good to finally know where she stands and how to support.
I suspect inattentive ADD or ADHD as a lot
Of Boxes are ticked.
One of my concerns - how do you tell an 8-10
Year old they have a label. I don’t want her to latch onto it and say it’s not my fault it’s my adhd and use it as a crutch or a get out of jail free card.
Sounds like it presents differently with girls. Did anyone get a diagnosis with a daughter and then things click into place and management and assisting techniques really helped ?
It seems like something that’s going to be a problem within academia but once into the real world, I don’t have huge concerns and think she will be fine.
Don't worry about labels - its a way to understand yourself in a context. From there, you can take whatever action you want but always from the basis of knowledge and understanding the consequences of action or inaction. You mention ADHD, but be aware this can often co-occur with Autism, so watch out for those traits just in case.Going down the independent route of having assessments don’t to establish an additional need as something is holding Y4 daughter back.
Seems like we have been a step forward and then a few back on this educational journey but things keep coming back to this point so be good to finally know where she stands and how to support.
I suspect inattentive ADD or ADHD as a lot
Of Boxes are ticked.
One of my concerns - how do you tell an 8-10
Year old they have a label. I don’t want her to latch onto it and say it’s not my fault it’s my adhd and use it as a crutch or a get out of jail free card.
Sounds like it presents differently with girls. Did anyone get a diagnosis with a daughter and then things click into place and management and assisting techniques really helped ?
It seems like something that’s going to be a problem within academia but once into the real world, I don’t have huge concerns and think she will be fine.
My son was diagnosed ADHD (15) then Autistic(17), My Daughter Autistic (14) the ADHD(20), myself Autistic at 40 years old and ADHD at 59.
I use my Autism as 'an excuse', but do it to protect myself, e.g. rather than struggling thru massive social situations and then having a meltdown, I may slip away somewhere quiet to recharge before returning. I might go home when I've had 'enough', etc. It almost becomes a cost/benefit exercise and some days you can cope better than others and on other occasions you push the envelope because you choose to and its important to you. If people know that you are slipping away from their birthday party because you are sensory overwhelmed, then that's better than not telling them why and letting people think you are an antisocial tw*t.
As for using it as a crutch - would you challenge anyone with a broken leg to stop limping and using it as an excuse when they can't run a marathon?
Yes behaviourally it can be 'controlled' but at the expense of wider mental health.
My son was on the verge of being excluded 14/15, and went from that to passing 7/8 GCSE's in a single year after starting meds. He went on to get a degree and is now a teacher who doesn't take any meds anymore. He holds it together during work, but when he gets home he's bouncing off the walls. In a way his ADHD helps him during the day as a teacher, but at the expense at home.
I guess I'm saying - don't worry, teach techniques and self awareness, consider meds (they are often a game changer) as long as they are happy it doesn't matter what label. ADHD traits can be sometimes endearing, class clown, spontaneous, funny etc but autistic ones are more likely to result in peer problems and the the older they get the more they will realise they are 'different', and that difference can sometimes cause problems.
The transition from primary to secondary school is when any potential autism traits are going to become more noticeable and kids start to struggle with the change to bigger schools, changing classrooms during the day, social interactions with peers become more nuanced and complex, mix this with puberty and its a ripe time for kids to start experiencing problems (especially girls).
JimmyConwayNW said:
Had contact from school in the last couple of weeks.
Going down the independent route of having assessments don’t to establish an additional need as something is holding Y4 daughter back.
Seems like we have been a step forward and then a few back on this educational journey but things keep coming back to this point so be good to finally know where she stands and how to support.
I suspect inattentive ADD or ADHD as a lot
Of Boxes are ticked.
One of my concerns - how do you tell an 8-10
Year old they have a label. I don’t want her to latch onto it and say it’s not my fault it’s my adhd and use it as a crutch or a get out of jail free card.
Sounds like it presents differently with girls. Did anyone get a diagnosis with a daughter and then things click into place and management and assisting techniques really helped ?
It seems like something that’s going to be a problem within academia but once into the real world, I don’t have huge concerns and think she will be fine.
How did you get on with the assessments? My daughter had her psycho assessments through a private company called Meadows Psychology Service. Really recommend they were a lot more efficient than daughters school! https://meadowspsychologyservice.co.uk/service/psy...Going down the independent route of having assessments don’t to establish an additional need as something is holding Y4 daughter back.
Seems like we have been a step forward and then a few back on this educational journey but things keep coming back to this point so be good to finally know where she stands and how to support.
I suspect inattentive ADD or ADHD as a lot
Of Boxes are ticked.
One of my concerns - how do you tell an 8-10
Year old they have a label. I don’t want her to latch onto it and say it’s not my fault it’s my adhd and use it as a crutch or a get out of jail free card.
Sounds like it presents differently with girls. Did anyone get a diagnosis with a daughter and then things click into place and management and assisting techniques really helped ?
It seems like something that’s going to be a problem within academia but once into the real world, I don’t have huge concerns and think she will be fine.
Forester1965 said:
Does anybody know of an ADHD referral we can use for our 11 year old via 'right to choose' with a wait under 6 months?
You will be lucky, even private assessments are months wait these days, let alone 'NHS' right to choose. Even then the last we heard was people were getting diagnosed in a reasonable timescale, but the follow up meds and titration was a separate even longer waiting list. I;m not sure if these do children, or whether its adults only or whether they will do 'right to choose'.
ADHD360, ADHDUK, psychiatry-UK, Clinical Partners, acornpsychiatry, ADHD Centre,
If you do go private, make sure they will support shared care, otherwise you will be left with a £80-130 a month meds fee
sparkyhx said:
This....... that really is a dangerous message that popeywhite is saying and he/she needs to educate themselves.+.
My message is based on fact and current research. The psychometric tests are unreliable, and on completion of the test on any given day many of us might expect to fit on the autism spectrum (according to psychometrics) somewhere. It is also fact there is no medical diagnosis.I work for the NHS in a psychotherapy role BTW.
The only danger is a blinkered dogmatic approach to the issue of certain hard to diagnose behavioural disorders.
popeyewhite said:
sparkyhx said:
This....... that really is a dangerous message that popeywhite is saying and he/she needs to educate themselves.+.
My message is based on fact and current research. The psychometric tests are unreliable, and on completion of the test on any given day many of us might expect to fit on the autism spectrum (according to psychometrics) somewhere. It is also fact there is no medical diagnosis.I work for the NHS in a psychotherapy role BTW.
The only danger is a blinkered dogmatic approach to the issue of certain hard to diagnose behavioural disorders.
MDUBZ said:
Tbh we didn’t have a ‘medical diagnosis’ for a lot of things until there was one;
I'm sure you'd agree a medical diagnosis is hugely more preferable to results based from tests where the answers can vary day by day depending on the mood of the subject. And there's so much research out there convincingly questioning the robustness of any psychometric test. MDUBZ said:
there is quite a bit of research into blood flow and activity of the brain using MRIs to identify ADHD and this seems to be fairly successful;
Not my field but isn't it the case that people already suspected of ADHD etc have had scans that show similar brain changes? Rather than scan first? But again easy to overdiagnose (at the moment) as a number of other factors (stroke etc) can result in similar.
MDUBZ said:
clinically ADHD is a grouping for certain behavioural traits and the challenge is that these traits in isolation can also be found to in most of the general population too making it easy to dismiss.
Nice spin. Easy to overdiagnose as well, obvs. And there's other factors that can contribute to overdiagnosis - Media, social trends etc etc.Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff