What training are you doing/have done today?

[LordGrover]

Davie_GLA said:

Wide grip pull ups, probably assisted as i can't manage many other wise. 3x10

You're starting off with the hardest. If you're struggling to do wide grip pull ups try shoulder width or narrower chin ups - much easier and will help develop your lats ready for when you switch to pull ups. If you still can't do more than 3 or 4 chins unassisted each set then add an elastic band to help you.

[Davie_GLA]

Must be some size of elastic band!

I use the assisted machine with as little assistance as i can but i guess i should narrow my grip for now.

[LordGrover]

The problem with most machines is it's the same resistance/weight from top to bottom. With elastic it helps you most at the bottom, where you need it and least at the top.

[balders118]

Davie_GLA said:

Must be some size of elastic band!

I use the assisted machine with as little assistance as i can but i guess i should narrow my grip for now.

The idea of wide chins is to focus high up yout lats to really give you back width. Narrower grips will focus lower down your lats. So by swithcing to closer grip, you won't be training the same part of your back. Because of this, i would have to disagree with what LG has said. I would build the reps up with an assist (or just do 4 sets of as many free ones that you can do, and build the reps up each week), or try building the weight up with some wide grip lat pull down.

[LordGrover]

You're right balders, but chins will let him build the strength to progress to pull ups.

[Lost_BMW]

balders118 said:

Lost_BMW said:

Davie_GLA said:

Bar bell bi curls, can't remember the name of it but one set comprise of 21 reps split into three at different positions.

D.

Known as "21s" - all the rage for the past couple of years, or at least the Weider mags would have us believe.

Pardon my cynicism and I'm not trying to knock you (more sceptical about the faddists in the press) but I can't see much point in (regularly) doing - except, maybe as a change or shock tactic - something that forces such light weights to be used and to accomodate 7 'reps' in a portion of the movement where little tension is on the biceps, ie top 3rd of movement.

I'll throw them in to my workouts every now and again. IMO the reason they should be used is to force training the whole range of motion of the bicep. Working in two gyms, I see some simply unbelievable form for curls, sometimes with the bicep doing very little concentric contraction at all. When people do 21's its all about training in different ranges, so they will train all of their bicep, not just the but in the middle that so many people seem to do. However, I have seen poor 21's form, where each different section looks the same!

That was part of the point of my suspicion; that people inevitably use a light weight but then spend most of the upper part of the movement in a way that allows the muscle to relax/rest. More of a tendon worker from what I've seen.

Another thing was this new fangled faddism - mags and gurus alike run out of ways to re present the basic "been there for ever" stuff so have to come up with new things, which I can't see having any real benefit in many cases. I got my arms to 21" (not fat - both heads clearly visible & attachments/ brachioradialis/ fibrils on triceps likewise) from the old fashioned barbell curls, dumbell curls and preachers, nothing trick or fancy but real size and strength. If I'd regularly used 21s I'd never have curled 70lb 'bells or 200lb barbells.

[Davie_GLA]

THat was my thinking. If i have the strength to do say ten close grip ones, then maybe i could do a fraction of them as wide grip.

[DownUnder.]

didelydoo said:

Phooey said:

DownUnder. said:

Tonight shoulders and traps
Went heavy tonight as i really want to build these up

3 x 10 dumbell press
4 x 10 barbell press
4 x 10 anry press
4 x 10 front lateral raise
4 x 10 side lateral raise

5 x 8 upright row (??)
8 x 5 Shrugs

Is there anything more I can be doing to build up lats and shoulders?

24 *heavy* sets for shoulders. Mmmmmmmm, i reckon you are going to get told this is too much content for a small muscle group?

Can't do heavy sets of 10... (I can't anyhoo)

By heavy i mean i essentially lift what I can for 10 reps, then drop the weight slightly for another 10 if i can't do 2 sets, so it might go 10 x 27.5 kg, 8 x 27.5 2 x 25 kg, 10 x 25 kg, so on... It just means for me that i get the most out of my muscles. May be wrong however.

[Davie_GLA]

27,5kg a side sounds like lots to me, but i'm a relative beginner.

I can just about manage 20kg arnold press on my last set.

[DownUnder.]

That's just Dumbell press, couldn't lift that arnold press, 20 kg if i'm lucky... They really hurt my rotator cuff that i damaged years ago.

[Davie_GLA]

Yes, i too have a rotator cuff injury that I need to be careful of.

I throw in some upright rows for my shoulders, can keep these relatively heavy at about 35kg.

[DownUnder.]

Yeah I do them as well as their good for your traps as well.

[996 sps]

This is still going I see!

Well today fellow gym bunnys I had an early swim from quarter to 7 till quarter past.

Lunchtime took Body Pump class and then tonight ropes and heaves.

On the beam up!

As for 21s great exercise ideal for muscular endurance and nice shock tactic after finishing heavy sess on bi's. Cant say I do them a great deal now but quite fashionable mid 90's.

[Lost_BMW]

DownUnder. said:

That's just Dumbell press, couldn't lift that arnold press, 20 kg if i'm lucky... They really hurt my rotator cuff that i damaged years ago.

Just a thought - trying to be helpful not negative honest! - but doesn't that say something about the Arnold, nee Scott, Press? I.E. that it isn't the safest or a necessary way of building size or strength in any head or the delts overall. Given how easily injured they are (I had a class 2 shoulder separation and know how long it can ruin training for) maybe it's safer to use alternatives to a thing you know hurts you?

Having tried it before (on good ole Arnie's recommendation - forgetting his comeback was hampered by dodgy shoulders, from his own words) I wouldn't touch it, fwiw.

Edited by Lost_BMW on Friday 5th November 17:13

[DownUnder.]

Lost_BMW said:

DownUnder. said:

That's just Dumbell press, couldn't lift that arnold press, 20 kg if i'm lucky... They really hurt my rotator cuff that i damaged years ago.

Just a thought - trying to be helpful not negativem honest! - but doesn't that say something about the Arnold, nee Scott, Press? I.E. that it isn't the safest or necessary way of building size or strength in any head or the delts overall. Given how easily injured they are (I had a class 2 shoulder separation and know how long it can ruin training for) maybe it's safer to use alternatives to a thing you know hurts you?

Having tried it before (on good ole Arnie's recommendation - forgetting his comeback was hampered by dodgy shoulders, from his own words) I wouldn't touch it, fwiw.

That's actually very, very good advice! Just trying my hardest to gain on shoulders quick as possible. Any ideas on how I can improve the training on them?

[LordGrover]

Unless you're correcting an existing imbalance just stick to a good all round set of workouts rather than trying to (over) emphasise one body part/muscle group.

Eta correct iPhone typos.

Edited by LordGrover on Thursday 4th November 20:57

[Lost_BMW]

DownUnder. said:

Lost_BMW said:

DownUnder. said:

That's just Dumbell press, couldn't lift that arnold press, 20 kg if i'm lucky... They really hurt my rotator cuff that i damaged years ago.

Just a thought - trying to be helpful not negativem honest! - but doesn't that say something about the Arnold, nee Scott, Press? I.E. that it isn't the safest or necessary way of building size or strength in any head or the delts overall. Given how easily injured they are (I had a class 2 shoulder separation and know how long it can ruin training for) maybe it's safer to use alternatives to a thing you know hurts you?

Having tried it before (on good ole Arnie's recommendation - forgetting his comeback was hampered by dodgy shoulders, from his own words) I wouldn't touch it, fwiw.

That's actually very, very good advice! Just trying my hardest to gain on shoulders quick as possible. Any ideas on how I can improve the training on them?

Don't want to come across as some quasi expert but have gotten over bad injuries (Press Behind Neck! NO!!! plus maybe over use from boxing) and still managed to build a lot of size and fair strength on them (110lb dumbell shoulder presses for 8-10 reps, 270lb barbell military press etc.) so have some experience good and bad to draw on.

I'd ignore anything that feels like it causes any impingement or over stiffness and listen out for any internal clicking.

Otherwise - front presses at a reasonable angle (too upright isn't necessary if it adds strain/danger, even for middle/lower back) with barbells, dumbell presses, single arm laterals at an angle, holding onto a machine etc. seem pretty safe, wide grip upright rows hit side delts well (I do traps with back) as do decline push ups.

Plus, bent over lateral raises! - and face pulls - to balance the development and reduce rotator cuff injury. My brother's delts now look bloody amazing - ripped up, highly detailed and bulging. The main change he's put in this year has been bent over laterals and he's commented on how much wider/bigger his delts are now purely because of these and how different their being pumped up at the end of a workout makes him look width wise, as if they push everything out?

It's worth looking out for booklets or web pages on avoiding rotator cuff damage (I have the "Seven minute rotator cuff" book) and adding exercise for the inner workings! I also have a shoulder horn which is a good recuperation tool.

If you have prioritised them for fast development I'd also suggest not too many sets, (personally I'd aim for between 3 sets of 3 exercises to 3 of 4, generally) only training delts once a week or so (they take hammer from so may other things) and working hard on heavy low rep (5 ish) builders every other workout or maybe a 2 heavy, then 1 light(er) workout pattern with one to pump blood/help tendons/help recovery/add endurance etc, if strength is wanted, though for growth per se most people now suggest 8 to 12 rep sets.

[Davie_GLA]

Just back, and i'm done in. Motivation was lacking tonight, but i got done what i had to.

reading through and thinking about internal clicking, part of my warm up is just to roll my arms round and my shoulders can make some interesting noises. Something i should be worried about?

the only time i feel any pain is doing arnolds (which i think i'll stop reading this) and heavy seated rows.

Did 21s tonight @ 25, 30, 30 (kg) - some straight cable curls and good old dumbell curls. Meant to stick some preachers in but forgot

Edited by Davie_GLA on Thursday 4th November 21:36

[Lost_BMW]

Davie_GLA said:

Just back, and i'm done in. Motivation was lacking tonight, but i got done what i had to.

reading through and thinking about internal clicking, part of my warm up is just to roll my arms round and my shoulders can make some interesting noises. Something i should be worried about?

the only time i feel any pain is doing arnolds (which i think i'll stop reading this) and heavy seated rows.

Did 21s tonight @ 25, 30, 30 (kg) - some straight cable curls and good old dumbell curls. Meant to stick some preachers in but forgot

Edited by Davie_GLA on Thursday 4th November 21:36

Might be just air pockets etc. but I wish I'd gone and got checked out earlier when mine started. Pretty well recovered now but it took years of pain and lack of training and still don't think I'm out of the woods totally (shoulder flexibility is now my main worry).

From my physio (who lifts) and reading I would never do Arnold press or close grip upright rows again.
IMO wider grip versions are sfare and better for shoulder development and shrugs, highpulls and deadlift far, far better for traps.

I used to do loads of upright rows - always limited by pain to no more than around 60kg - but never got much trap development out of them, a couple of month of shrugs and ability to work traps with over double that weight and they are noticeably bigger!

[DownUnder.]

Thanks for the advice, I'm off to kill my spine/biceps and possibly abs now so we shall see if I post later (If not please let me know I died doing something pointlessly vain) with the results!