I know people keep saying that there are a lot of unsold..

[Tuna]

ravon said:

But it's a free market, and generally the best all round product is the one that sells.

That alone is demonstrably not true.

As for your other prejudices, the power train argument is pure snobbery. Lotus aren't the only manufacturer to build a car from major components that are either bought in, or evolved from third party designs. Nor are they the only race team to have won major championships by combining components that they did not design to create a remarkable vehicle.

If they had built their own engine I would bet good money that you would be the first person saying "I don't know if they're reliable, think of the servicing costs".

[ravon]

Tuna, demonstrate to me please ?

Lotus did build it's own engines, in their time they were state of the art, even Chrysler bought them for a production car. Their last production engine was not so hot, that fitted to the Esprit V8.

[Mikeyboy]

ravon said:

Tuna, demonstrate to me please ?

Lotus did build it's own engines, in their time they were state of the art, even Chrysler bought them for a production car. Their last production engine was not so hot, that fitted to the Esprit V8.

Ford Escort?

[bobo]

ravon is just stating the facts actually. that's hardly being a snob ...

it wont stop me buying the exige v6 but yes i would rather a high reving naturally aspirated bespoke lotus v6 as opposed to the camery sc lump (as good or bad as it is as i don't know) that's going in.....

i mean wouldn't you? it would probably be a hell of lot lighter to start with ...

[SFO]

if the Evora is so good, why have they not sold?

[Mikeyboy]

SFO said:

if the Evora is so good, why have they not sold?

I think thats been covered in here hasn't it?
Profile, cost comparison, lack of liquidity in the market.

Those are the most obvious reasons I would think.

[Tuna]

ravon said:

Tuna, demonstrate to me please ?

Sure. The iPhone. There are better phones available for less money, but Apple have the mind-share. They're a powerful brand and people buy the brand, not the device. In many high end products, from hi-fi to cars, the brand perception is often quite independent of the relative quality of the product.

Or, at the other end of the market, McDonalds. Worldwide, the most popular fast food brand. Are you saying McDonalds is a high quality meal? No - it's well marketed and predictable. A safe and easily recognised choice. Unlike my local sandwich shop which does fantastic food at equivalent prices.

[The Pits]

bobo said:

ravon is just stating the facts actually. that's hardly being a snob ...

it wont stop me buying the exige v6 but yes i would rather a high reving naturally aspirated bespoke lotus v6 as opposed to the camery sc lump (as good or bad as it is as i don't know) that's going in.....

i mean wouldn't you? it would probably be a hell of lot lighter to start with ...

Didn't mean to make personal comments about Ravon who I haven't met in person (yet!). It was born from my weariness of the 'camry' slight which is repeated on here nearly as often as the famous acronym. It's just irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is whether or not the engine is a good one, unless you're negatively predisposed to the toyota badge. Personally, I'd rather have a brilliant Ford engine to an awful Porsche or Ferrari one for example. The badge has nothing to do with it. People still knock the Aston V12 for being 'two mondeo engines' and no doubt always will. However I can assure you that it is twice the engine that the 550 Maranello had - the least inspiring V12 engine I have ever experienced. Powerful, huge gobs of low down torque but asthmatic above 5k - absolutely not what I want from an Italian V12!

Yes I would prefer a high revving V6 made by Lotus and would be one among a tiny number who would prepared to the likely high price for that. However the vast majority of people would prefer a torque-rich V6 that's already proven, reliable, cheap to maintain. The Exige S will sound great, go like stink and be powered by a powerful, reliable, Japanese engine, all for under £50k basic. That figure simply wouldn't be possible with a bespoke engine, nor would the torture testing that the Toyota V6 has endured. Lotus made their own V8 and all I can remember is criticism and that acronym again. They just can't seem to win.

Personally I would have preferred the new Esprit to be powered by the Lexus ISF 5.0V8 (a fabulous engine) and a lower overall price tag than the £150+ being suggested currently. Better still, the glorious LF-A V10. Not even I reckon Lotus could top that! No doubt that would have been known as the car with the 'Lexus' engine.

I implore anyone who is put off by this 'camry' nonsense to go and drive the car for themselves.

Until then here's a reminder of something far more important:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6K7q_SN-pU&fea...

[evo4a]

I have one and quite like being fairly unique, I have seen 2 others on the road in 2 years.
I love mine and thats sufficient for me.

I find most people love talking the talk but never walk the walk when it comes to buying..... if I had a pound for every post containing .... "I am intending to buy X but worried about residuals or an S coming out etc etc"

There are serial posters here who have talked about buying for years but seem to be still driving the same old same old.

Some people need to understand that the fun is in the driving not in talking about performance, weight, gear ratios......

[ravon]

The Pits, nice video, but I hate noisy cars, last race at Snetterton a few weeks ago my Porsche noise tested at 87dB !!! Even my Caterham has a second transverse silencer .

Just as a point of interest, were you able to confirm that the engine in the Evora is in fact modified, I'd be surprised if it was, Lotus have already said how costly it is to rebuild the transmissions to provide the close ratio gear set, changing the internals of the engine would be even more so. I'm guessing that they have an absolutely amazing deal from their supplier, by taking a non-direct injection version .

( please note, for the sake of peace between us all, I've been very careful not to name the manufacturer of the unit, or the vehicle from which it comes ! )

( I trust that none of you guys snigger about the Porsche 924 as having an Audi/VW van engine ? )

[the ronin]

Lotus Evora sales are so poor in the US prompted Lotus to rebage the majority of the US inventory and send it off to China..... Yeah the Chinese will buy anything..

[Tuna]

the ronin said:

Lotus Evora sales are so poor in the US prompted Lotus to rebage the majority of the US inventory and send it off to China..... Yeah the Chinese will buy anything..

I think that says more about the economies of the US and China, and their attitudes to foreign goods than it does about Lotus.

[The Pits]

Here's another one, just for Ravon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbblGRBHHoA&fea...

[DVR]

Went quickly over this thread, some random remarks.

Am Belgian so have no patriotic motives. Have owned about 10 different Porsche's and 2 Lotus'.
My current DD is an Audi S5 cabrio which will be replaced end of next year. I want a 2+2 as my next car so I can take my 2 small children with me from time to time. If you want an involving sporty car the 911 should be a given. However, the Evora S appeals to me. It looks good, drives sublime, not expensive and did I mention it looks good ?

Does it bother me that is has a Camry engine with diesel gearbox ? Not really, what is important to me is the efficiency. Look at the Co2 numbers. That number tells me that engine is far from obsolete. Porsche is not much better with the 991 and uses start/stop, electric power steering, DI engine and so much more.

Driving position: I still have a 993 (LHD of course) and it has, like any air-cooled 911, offset steer and pedals. I never heard anyone complain about that 'feature'. But on the Evora people seem to have a problem with it? I don't.

The MY12 improvements have removed any 'cottage industry' feeling I might have had. To me this car has become my favorite. I recently drove it and it only confirmed that.

Edited by DVR on Friday 25th November 19:05

[robbbsm]

There was me thinking Evora's were selling really well.

Evora's are common as muck in Norfolk.

[Scuffers]

DVR said:

Does it bother me that is has a Camry engine with diesel gearbox ? Not really, what is important to me is the efficiency. Look at the Co2 numbers. That number tells me that engine is far from obsolete. Porsche is not much better with the 991 and uses start/stop, electric power steering, DI engine and so much more.

that's a pointless comparison, you need to understand how CO2 figures are obtained and then look at the cars in question.

the Camry engine is obsolete, Toyota gave it end of life some time ago now, it won;t be long before it's no longer made full stop.

it's been replaced by the GDi V6, but as already commented, I would assume that the old engine was offered to Lotus really cheaply as in the 7 year run-down, it makes sence for Toyota to have a customer that justifies continued small scale production making maintaining spares etc more viable.

this is the same story that the 2ZZ engine went though.

Back to the subject, if Mr Pit's is so keen on the Evora, why does he not own one?

it's very easy to wax lyrically on about this and that, but I notice most of the people who do this don't actually put their own money into one.

way I see it, look at how the Evora was launched, every jurno was fawning over it saying how much better than a 911 it was, yet I can't think of a single one that then went out and brought one, I can however, point at more than a few who have 911's.

I actually regard this is dishonesty....

[ravon]

As ever Simon, bang on the money, and brave enough to say it !

[The Pits]

I'd happily own an Evora. In fact I had one on order before I bought the V12 Vantage.

I'm now waiting to try the new Exige V6 with its 'obsolete' engine before I decide which way I go as an Elise replacement. Either way more than happy to own a car with the Evora drivetrain.

So spectacularly wrong again Scuffy.

Instead of vacuous slurs like 'obsolete' perhaps you'd like to share with us all where the toyota V6 is lacking from an engineering point of view and compared to what? A V6 is a reason to be cheerful not moan for most engineers. A great, naturally balanced configuration offering refinement and aural satisfaction far beyond your average 4 cylinder. Using a toyota version brings reliability and affordable maintenance too. I would have loved a lightweight mountune race V6 in there but the costs would be huge, reliability and maintenance also severely compromised for road use. I would be the only person to have bought one.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to offer a practical suggestion for which superior V6 they might have used? The direct injection version of the same 'camry' engine is prefereable in terms of output but it's taller and heavier and likely to have pushed the price up further. And to the badge snobs it's still a 'camry' engine though, so no change there.

Knock yourself out.

Edited by The Pits on Tuesday 13th December 10:21

[Scuffers]

The Pits said:

I'd happily own an Evora. In fact I had one on order before I bought the V12 Vantage.

I'm now waiting to try the new Exige V6 with its 'obsolete' engine before I decide which way I go as an Elise replacement. Either way more than happy to own a car with the Evora drivetrain.

So spectacularly wrong again Scuffy.

how am I wrong? you don't own one thus proving the point (as in you brought something else).

The Pits said:

Instead of vacuous slurs like 'obsolete' perhaps you'd like to share with us all where the toyota V6 is lacking from an engineering point of view and compared to what? A V6 is a reason to be cheerful not moan for most engineers. A great, naturally balanced configuration offering refinement and aural satisfaction far beyond your average 4 cylinder. Using a toyota version brings reliability and affordable maintenance too. I would have loved a lightweight mountune race V6 in there but the costs would be huge, reliability and maintenance also severely compromised for road use. I would be the only person to have bought one.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to offer a practical suggestion for which superior V6 they might have used? The direct injection version of the same 'camry' engine is prefereable in terms of output but it's taller and heavier and likely to have pushed the price up further. And to the badge snobs it's still a 'camry' engine though, so no change there.

Knock yourself out.

what do you want me to say?

Toyota themselves have replaced this engine (some time ago), or do you think they have got it all wrong?

look, it's a perfectly decent enough engine, but it was never designed for the use Lotus are putting it to, now, Lotus have not been big enough in the past to have either bespoke engines made or buy in suitable high performance ones (like the ISF or LFA engines if your going to stick with Toyota).

[The Pits]

Scuffers said:

look, it's a perfectly decent enough engine,

FAO Ravon. And that's from mr 'spot on as usual' scuffers.

It would appear then that there are few sensible alternatives to the toyota V6 that Lotus uses. Anything more exotic would push up the cost to buy and run considerably (the last thing the evora needs is a higher price). Anything four cylinders would likely reduce weight but the overall appeal too for what the evora is meant to be, a comfortable, daily useable high performance car. So in the absence of offering any sensible alternatives, I suggest giving Lotus a break on their choice of engine.

You're wrong in suggesting that I 'wax lyrical' about the car but don't really want to own one. I do really want to own one and may yet do so if the Exige V6 doesn't match my expectations. The Evora is stunningly capable. All the weak sales prove to me is that dynamic excellence is not a high priority for most people (supported by the fact that the most popular fast car of all is rear-engined). Sales have been very poor but it's not because there's anything wrong with the car, or the engine.