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Frimley111R

Original Poster:

5,594 posts

117 months

[news] 
Monday 21st November 2011 quote quote all
....Evoras but I can't help thinkning its a market issue and not a car one. I can't remember the last high value sports car I saw of any brand.

Mikeyboy

5,018 posts

118 months

[news] 
Monday 21st November 2011 quote quote all
Frimley111R said:
....Evoras but I can't help thinkning its a market issue and not a car one. I can't remember the last high value sports car I saw of any brand.
I would say that this hasn't been helping but isn't their main problem.

Also I wouldn't say it was just sports cars. there are a number of new models supposedly relased in the last few years which haven't exactly been flooding the streets.

Tuna

4,730 posts

167 months

[news] 
Monday 21st November 2011 quote quote all
Mikeyboy said:
I would say that this hasn't been helping but isn't their main problem.

Also I wouldn't say it was just sports cars. there are a number of new models supposedly relased in the last few years which haven't exactly been flooding the streets.
After someone else made comments about car sales in another thread I looked up the numbers online. This summer, for three months Chevrolet, Cadillac and Corvette didn't sell a single car between them. The market has been disastrous for the vast majority of manufacturers, with a tiny handful picking up the slack.

Mikeyboy

5,018 posts

118 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
Tuna said:
After someone else made comments about car sales in another thread I looked up the numbers online. This summer, for three months Chevrolet, Cadillac and Corvette didn't sell a single car between them. The market has been disastrous for the vast majority of manufacturers, with a tiny handful picking up the slack.
where can you find those numbers? I've looked in the past and struggled to find them.

donna180

627 posts

44 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
I've seen more 458s being driven on UK roads than I have Evoras.

Lotus CEO, if you're reading this, lend me a bright metalic Evora S and I'll raise its profile with lots of "free" advertising. wink
Advertisement

The Pits

4,099 posts

123 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
Unfortunately having a brilliant car, like the Evora doesn't count for much with the buying public. The Evora's problem is no-one even puts it on the consideration list. No-one's driving them. If they did they'd sell a lot more. Dealers are partly to blame. Few of them cut it for the money the Evora's asking.

It would also appear 'not being german' counts against it too. Domestic support for our own cars is always disgracefully poor.

The NSX was another brilliant car that failed to sell as well as it deserved.

Both the Evora and NSX have a lot in common. Transverse mid-mounted V6, practicality, sweet handling.

They also both tried and failed to compete with a rear engined, ill handling, flat 6 car that looked and still looks like an egg. I used to think it was the 'prestige' of the porsche badge that ultimately beat both the Honda and now the Lotus, yet even Porsche's own (in my opinion far superior) Cayman fails to sell well.

In that sector of the market it seems no-one can see beyond the 911.

I'm not pretending for a moment that the Evora was ever meant to compete with the 911 in terms of sales but the hope was that a tiny percentage of buyers might want something different. It would appear they don't.

Mikeyboy

5,018 posts

118 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
The Pits said:
They also both tried and failed to compete with a rear engined, ill handling, flat 6 car that looked and still looks like an egg. I used to think it was the 'prestige' of the porsche badge that ultimately beat both the Honda and now the Lotus, yet even Porsche's own (in my opinion far superior) Cayman fails to sell well.
you realise to say the 911 is ill handling is sacrilege don't you? Though in the one example I drove, I didn't like the nose bobbing slow in fast out thing. Made me very nervous and didn't suit how I like to do things.

[qute=The Pits]
In that sector of the market it seems no-one can see beyond the 911.

I'm not pretending for a moment that the Evora was ever meant to compete with the 911 in terms of sales but the hope was that a tiny percentage of buyers might want something different. It would appear they don't.
Well lets also look at the competition at that price range:
main manufacturers: M3, Nissan GT-R, heavily specced VW Scirocco R, Cayman S, TT-RS, RS5, Jag XK. Thats even before you mention the slightly more expensive R8, Astons and Xk-R

niche makers: Artega, Ginetta, Lotus Exige S, Wiesmann.

And those are just the ones I can think of right now.

Many of these cars are more practical, better built and for the average owner, nicer things to own with less hassle and more creature comforts than the Evora.

I have said many many times before. the Evora is woefully over priced for what you get in comparison tot he competition. Should the car have been in TT-S price ranges it may have done well. It would still have had to get over the fact though that it just doesn't figure in the average owner/buyers wish list.

justin220

2,845 posts

87 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
Agreed. The reason is people who want a 911, will buy a 911 without trying the others.. Lotus have a hard task getting people in to actually try the Evora. I was converted as soon as I drove it

The Pits

4,099 posts

123 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
Audi R8 is another car that deserves to sell more than it does.

Much sweeter handling than a 911. Much better looking to my eyes too.

Jag XK is more at the comfort orientated end of things but a much more suitable car for the curious man who specs a 911 with the tiptronic box. If I had to own an auto sports car it would probably be that one

None succeed because everyone just buys 911s.

Evora price actually works out very similar to a Cayman spec for spec. 911 is a much, much more expensive car after you've fallen for porsche's trap and put only a modest amount of extras on it. But the purely hypothetical 'base' price of the porsches makes the Evora look expensive I agree. It's only that Porsche rinse you dry when you spec the car.

I think they should have offered just two specs, one basic S around the low £50k mark, fully loaded cars for £60k (fully loaded Cayman S is a staggering £80k!!!).

limpsfield

3,258 posts

136 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
The Pits said:
In that sector of the market it seems no-one can see beyond the 911.

I'm not pretending for a moment that the Evora was ever meant to compete with the 911 in terms of sales but the hope was that a tiny percentage of buyers might want something different. It would appear they don't.
I think this hits it on the head. I live in Surrey, work in the City and have seen 3 Lotus Evoras on the road since they have been launched. And as an Elise owner I make a special effort to notice them. Great cars, test drove one in the summer and loved it, but I think they are only reaching a very dedicated and narrow audience.

Sumshi

133 posts

55 months

[news] 
Tuesday 22nd November 2011 quote quote all
Fantastic car ... but very few people bother to try....

bobo

1,336 posts

161 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
i agree, fantastic car.

although lotus didn't do themselves any favours releasing an unfinished car at that price range. all those issues that are now apparently resolved by the my12 model is probably what put 99% of people off for the first 2 years of production. that's a bad business call.

the old S1, europa, s2 technique of getting your customers to do and pay for your R&D simply doesn't cut it these days at that price range.

it amazes me that they only appear to have two exige v6's out testing. most other brands would have >20 all over the world and unfortunately if you want to compete you simply cant issue a half finished product ....a fickle market says so. and to be fair why should the consumer have to put up with some of the faults listed to date?

i'm hoping that because the drive-train isn't new, that the chassis bar the extn. is already proven and the interior is a standard s2 fit this wont be the case for the v6. but who knows. but the evora as i understand it was a 100% new product that should have had far more testing before its release.

they now have to change the markets perception with the my12 model which will be an uphill battle unfortunately....

Thorburn

1,384 posts

76 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
bobo said:
it amazes me that they only appear to have two exige v6's out testing. most other brands would have >20 all over the world and unfortunately if you want to compete you simply cant issue a half finished product ....a fickle market says so. and to be fair why should the consumer have to put up with some of the faults listed to date?
I know it's not 20+, but I've seen photos of at least 5 different development cars, and I'm sure there are more kicking around.

The Pits

4,099 posts

123 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
Actually Lotus tested the thing to death. As did McLaren with the MP412C. Neither company wanted to release an undeveloped product. Just like Ferrari never wanted to release a 458 that was prone to spontaneous combustion. It happens to all manufacturers with all-new cars from time to time. What's unfair is when it happens to Lotus it reinforces a negative perception (yes that tedious acronym again). When porsche, bmw or ferrari release a car that needs recalling they are forgiven on the grounds of it being a freak occurence.

I happen to think the base Evora was and still is a fundamentally sound and brilliant car. The MY12 is said to be even better but I don't think that makes the early cars sub standard. In fact it's the early Evora not the S that scooped every magazine award going. I see it as very much the NSX for the modern age. Sadly for Lotus it's selling a bit like the NSX too. It's not the fastest or the cheapest in its class but it is one of the most capable and satisfying to drive.

Lotus have finite resources obviously. What they don't get any credit for is prioritizing on the areas that matter most to a driver. So the quality of minor switchgear and things like sun visors is sacrificed to free up resources for things like suspension development. The truth is that most manufacturers, many prestigious brands included scrimp on things like dampers. Lotus do not, the staggered dampers that the Evora uses are technically ingenious and very high spec. Lotus are also obsessive about getting the very best out of them, way past the point of what the average punter can appreciate. The problem is, that people in the showroom make judgements about the company based on the flimsyness of, you guessed it, minor switchgear and sun visors before anything else.

Still, having been to the factory recently it's clear that they have turned their attention to all that stuff for the MY12, but really the important stuff on the car from a driving point of view hasn't changed much (gearchange being a possible exception but I haven't driven a MY12 to compare). But interestingly the MY12 Evora S for example still has the same brakes and very similar suspension set up to the original launch car - which was over endowed in this department to begin with.


Mikeyboy

5,018 posts

118 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
I love the Evora, I think its the nicest handling car i've driven since the Elise I used to have.

I tested one though, because I had once owned a Lotus and they therefore figure in my thinking when I look at new cars.

If Lotus had dealerships inside the M25 or just in areas that get more footfall then they may figure in other people's thoughts. certainly it won't be because you see a lot.

May be this new dealership netweork that Lotus talked about when they set out their 5 year plan, will give them a higher profile on the high street. Though I doubt it.

bobo

1,336 posts

161 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
Thorburn said:
I know it's not 20+, but I've seen photos of at least 5 different development cars, and I'm sure there are more kicking around.
sounds positive smile

ravon

356 posts

165 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
Always love your enthusiasm "The Pits", and find your loathing of anything foreign very noble ! But it's a free market, and generally the best all round product is the one that sells. The product that I designed, developed and manufacture is the world leader in it's field, is distributed in fifty-five countries and about ninety-something percent of production is exported. It would be catastrophic for me and my thirty-odd employees, if every country was full of blinkered buyers who only bought nationally made products.

It would be fascinating to know what the margins are like on Evora, wether it has been wrongly placed in the market, at a much too high price point with a very big margin. It doesn't look like value for money to me in terms of it's build quality compared to a Porsche. Historically, cars like Iso, De Tomaso, Jensen, Gordon Keeble just don't make the sort of money that a genuine factory thoroughbred make, they are still bds, nice cars, but without there own power train and transmission, lacking in that final pedigree. In the case of the Evora, there is a miss-mash of an obsolete Toyota Camary engine, a Toyoata Avensis Diesel gearbox, an Australian after-market supercharger kit, all put together in a less than spectacularly moulded ( and painted ) fibre glass body, with an awful compromised twisted driving position and a terrible gear linkage. On the plus side you have Lotus legendary ride and handling, which is without doubt superb, and you have uniqueness, because nobody buys them.

I'm absolutely in the market for one when they get to a used price point that looks appealing, and I believe that won't be long. But buying such a tetchy car with no Factory Warranty is worrying. I had my Lotus serviced recently, and made some enquiries about Evora, did you know the Hethal boys have made the clutch so embedded that it takes thirty-five hours to change one, the whole rear body has to be removed, seats out, a total nightmare, and of course simple arithmetic, thats going to be at least £3500 for labour, probably £500 for parts and then VAT, so five grand for a clutch change !

As I mentioned elsewhere, I really look forward to meeting you, if join us racing next year !

bobo

1,336 posts

161 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
noted pits, but the silliness is the problems were essentially basic but things that should have been sorted day one, niggles that the journos could latch onto and make a meal of.

gear change, sound, fit and finish, excessive seat/tyre wear, sat nav not working, etc... that stuff should have been ironed out day one. basic, basic stuff , bread and butter for a sports gt.

to put this in perspective, you mentioned the 458 issue , my friends california was taken back as it had a total electrical failure - and i mean money back 'total' - was 3 months old.

oddly bigger stuff like that wont stop far more expensive cars like 458s, cali's from being sold as people have the confidence that the factory will resolve it quickly. it wont take 2 years of slow drip development to eventually get to a £60k product that can actually compete like for like with a £60k alternative, which is totally different imho.

what they need is for the jornos to say the MY12 its better than the pork alternative in every respect (not just ride and handling) and you would be a mug (for want of a better expression) not to buy this car.

if they cant achieve that they have to lower the price, but simply put, unfortunately its one or the other ...or the lesson simply hasn't been learnt and the sales problem will persist - at least domestically.





The Pits

4,099 posts

123 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
It's not a level playing field. There is prejudice against British cars. Such as the 'camry' engine slight. even if the engines were the same, which they are not, how can it be assumed to be a negative? What if that model 'camry' had a fine V6? At no point have I ever heard criticism of any kind of the camry v6's engine. What matters is that the engine is a good unit surely? In supercharged form it's really impressive. Very smooth, flawless power delivery, strong linear power, perfect fuelling, sounds good too. So 'camry' as a criticism is just someone trying hard to find fault. I had no issues with the gearbox but it is an accepted area where there us room for improvement. But the fix is in the cables nothing whatsoever to do with it's other applications. As for 'awful twisted driving position' that just doesn't square with my experience.

Some snobbishness creeping out there ravon. Mind you, I've long suspected that's what's behind porsche's success. They appeal very much to that sort of person.

ravon

356 posts

165 months

[news] 
Wednesday 23rd November 2011 quote quote all
With due respect " The Pits " you sound like an angry schoolboy not getting his way !

The facts are, the Evora is powered by an obsolete Toyota Camary engine, it has a Toyota Avensis Diesel transmission, the "S" Model has an after market Australian supercharger kit bolted to it. According to the journals it's very good to drive, it has some weak points, the gear linkage, and for me the twisted driving position is not good, it'd a bit like any RHD version of and air cooled 911 ( that's why I have an LHD version, the steering wheel and pedals are in line ), and Porsche learned, making the water cooled cars symmetrical. From the owners Forums and owners I've spoken to, tyre wear and water ingress are also common problems.

There is no "slight" about my mentioning a Camary engine, like pretty much all Japanese engines, it's undoubtedly very good, but would you pay top dollar for your Aston Martin if it were fitted with one ? Clearly Lotus recognise this with their own plans for Esprit etc. you authoritatively say that the Camary engine is not the same, I've never seen it written that they are in some way special for the Evora installation, the management system and mapping are unique to Lotus.

If you race with us next year, you will find that there is not an iota of "snobbishness" in me, and as such there are other reasons why I like both Lotus & Porsche brands, and I am not ( I hope ) the " sort of person " to which you refer .

Again, I very much look forward to meeting you in person.

Regards.



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